20 replies to this topic

[Chuckie]

OK not sure if its truly "Another" as I didnt see any threads dedicated to it..

Anyway.. While not new to MMO, MMORPG, and other such games... I havent played a true F2P and with all the talk on the boards about WoT I figured it would be a good one to try.

So played WoT for the first time today.. kind of repetative, kind of fun, but not engrossing nor did I find it very immersing. The battles happen too fast to get to know anyone.. and at the same time it made for a fun way to blow 4 hours and about $20. Neat.. but nothing I would say would keep me glued for hours.. regularly.. but until MW:O is released.it will do since I am bored of most other games I have played recently.

Looking at its Tree system, it looks to me to be similar, yet simpler, yet also a bit more indepth all at the same time than what PGI seems to be proposing for MW:O. Of course that siad we have only seen the most rudimentary workings of the MW:O so far. So its hard to judge accurately.

Anyway, I will admit it WoT didn't seem grindy at all. Grindy to me would be more like WoW or even ST:Os systems.. that said both of those games, grindy or not I have wasted a LOT of time on.. and in. I found both games immersion levels much deeper than WoT.

So.. in regards to what everyone is saying about the talent trees, pilot trees, and such looking to be grindy.. I don't think so.. But at the same time I think it has to be a little grindy to get you wanting to play more and come back.

Should also mention, I noticed a lot of people on the board being concerned that MW:O would become P2W "like WoT has become". I have to say I didn't find WoT to be all that P2W, did it help me jump over the boring intial grind to spend $20 to get a decent tank.. and some gold and exp. Yep, sure did.

Did it help me have more than others..? Nope not really.. as the random matches were all about the tier tank you had, etc.. I think it was fairly balanced overall. If PGI balances MW:O half again better than WoT I think its really going to be a great game.

Anyway, after spending my $20 to jump ahead in the game, I found myself going back and doing it the old fashioned way and ended up grinding for the modules in the tank tree.. That said both ways seemed good overall, and niether seemed to be exclusive of the other. It was definately nice to have the credits to make it easier to go up in the tree. But, it didn't give me any advantage though. I would say though that spending the money saved me a good bit of time grinding.

So now that I kind of understand what WoT and a full on F2P game is about and like.. I can see where the two models (WoW and WoT) can kind of merge with MW:O and to be honest, I am even more excited now than I have been (and thats saying something..)

As for Pilot trees, Mech trees, etc. in MW:O.. I kind of am envisioning a WoT Tree (with modules) for the Mechs, and a Pilot skill tree similar to the skill tree for Druids/Shamans/Etc in WoW..

Curious what others here that are hardcore WoT and WoW fans (and haters) think.. ?

Also are there any players like me that learned of WoT from this forum and went and tried it out..? What did you think..?

What about WoW players ?

BTW 31 days to GDC

Edited by Chuckie, 03 February 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[Kaemon]

Do the american heavy tree grind, and post when you get to the T1 Hwy/M6 branch (without using real life $) and let me know how that goes for you.

Or the IS to IS-3 (good god man it's painful), at some point you have to ask youself...why (if clan wars is end game content) did they put so much grind into the game?

Isn't rolling around in a tank (or whatever you do in that excuse of a nerfed tiger) supposed to be awesome fun?

They have other games coming out and the currency will cross platforms (which I think is a great idea), but the gold everything, the horrendous (yes it's still horrendous) implementation of Clan Wars (Conquest Mode) and the constant poking to move along in the trees rather than enjoy some of the battles along the way irritates the prunes out of me in a big way.

IMO the best battles are the tier 1-4 (well except for the total lack of anything resembling tactics in the PUGs).

I think a lot of people are just so disappointed in it, it could've been so much more, but (and this is the second russian published game I've seen this in, so not liking the trend) it turned into a cash trap, and for some people that's great.

For me, it is not.

[plodder]

When you say grindy, what does it mean?Like a grinding gear?clunky?

[Chuckie]

plodder, on 03 February 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

When you say grindy, what does it mean?Like a grinding gear?clunky?

As in game play that requires you to grind and grind away the hours doing repeative chores to accomplish a task.

Something most of us hope MW:O will be able to work out of the standard MMO system..

Edited by Chuckie, 03 February 2012 - 08:52 PM.

[Kip Wilson]

Interestingly enough I never even heard of WoT until I saw it referenced here in this forum. It sounded interesting so about two weeks ago I decided to check it out and have been up till 2am every day since playing it. I find the opposite is true for me though, I dont find WoT repetative even though there is a limited number of maps available. Each tank in the game has its very unique own characteristics that I find fascinating to explore. Even though im up to teir 6, i find the teir 2 Russian T-24 (i belive) to be one of the funnest tanks. But each brings its own unique challenges that is fun to explore.

The teir spread in the game is a little to wide IMO, might as well not even have teirs when you got teir 3's stuck ina teir 9 game. Other than that and most stock tanks are generally useless, it is much more entertaining to me than say WoW or SWTOR, which I havent even touched my account on for two weeks. Those games its nothing more than running around using the same exact kill combo on the million monsters you have to deal with, go back, get trained and just do it all over again... thats repetative and simply not fun. If I can excercize different play styles in my game and deal with situations that arent tailored specifically to my "level", that all makes things much more interesting.

Nothing beats that lucky teir 9 tank knock out with your teir 4 tank. In other MMOs if its above your level, your simply pwned no matter what.

I sincerely hope many WoT concepts make it into MWO because I think they share many similarities.... one request though, dont make MWO blue screen my computer which WoT seems to like to do...

[Chuckie]

Kip Wilson, on 03 February 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

Interestingly enough I never even heard of WoT until I saw it referenced here in this forum. It sounded interesting so about two weeks ago I decided to check it out and have been up till 2am every day since playing it. I find the opposite is true for me though, I dont find WoT repetative even though there is a limited number of maps available. Each tank in the game has its very unique own characteristics that I find fascinating to explore. Even though im up to teir 6, i find the teir 2 Russian T-24 (i belive) to be one of the funnest tanks. But each brings its own unique challenges that is fun to explore.

The teir spread in the game is a little to wide IMO, might as well not even have teirs when you got teir 3's stuck ina teir 9 game. Other than that and most stock tanks are generally useless, it is much more entertaining to me than say WoW or SWTOR, which I havent even touched my account on for two weeks. Those games its nothing more than running around using the same exact kill combo on the million monsters you have to deal with, go back, get trained and just do it all over again... thats repetative and simply not fun. If I can excercize different play styles in my game and deal with situations that arent tailored specifically to my "level", that all makes things much more interesting.

Nothing beats that lucky teir 9 tank knock out with your teir 4 tank. In other MMOs if its above your level, your simply pwned no matter what.

I sincerely hope many WoT concepts make it into MWO because I think they share many similarities.... one request though, dont make MWO blue screen my computer which WoT seems to like to do...

True.. there are things I Like about WoW that hav egotten old and things I never liked, same holds true for WoT.. but the things I like and the things I dislike are completely different..

From what we have read and seen.. I am thinking if you put the game mechanics and dynamics of MW:LL, MW2/3/4, WoT and a dash of WoW into a game blender, and then added your own special ingredients and flavors.. you would get MW:O.

Similar to them all and nothing like any of them..

Edited by Chuckie, 03 February 2012 - 09:08 PM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

The grind doesn't really set in until t5-6 for WoT. Get back to us once you get to that level. When you get to the top, play tournaments and clan wars and still tell me with a straight face that you don't need gold ammo and consumables to win. What you're playing right now isn't representative of the game as a whole.

I was super positive about WoT early in the game too. It wasn't until I was well into it that the issues became glaringly obvious.

[Sug]

I don't really consider a game's leveling process 'grindy' as long as it's fun.

If you can't do anything fun or that matters in MWO until you hit that Elite bar, yeah that would be kinda grindy.

I hope MWO is more of "Oh that last match gave me a level. Cool."

[autogyro]

There won't be a way around the grind feeling in games like this where equipment/'Mechs are locked.

A game like Battlefield 3 doesn't feel like a grind to get weapons because you can pick them up from dead teammates and enemies. Here, you won't be able to jump into that Command elite Atlas until you yourself have worked up towards it.

The developers will need to balance the grind with unlocking too much too early and having no meaningful endgame. I'm sure it'll be suitably balanced, I do agree that the WoT grinding model can be a little excessive at the high tiers.

Since here however, every 'Mech is unlocked from the start (or I believe it is?), it'll be a minorly painful grind for C-Bills only, and not xp to choose a 'Mech so the grind won't be all that painful. Eliting it and perfecting it should be somewhat of a grind though if you ask me.

[Denvian]

I played WoT in the beta and I found it quite fun (of course they gave you free gold every couple of weeks). On of the bottom tier the tank I loved to play was the BT-2 which was easy to get without gold and you could max out really easy. It was never included in top tier battles and was really fun to play no matter how far up the tree I got. I did not sell it because once you got to a high tier tank there was no instant gratification because it completely sucked until you upgraded it.

at the end I had a t-54 fully upgraded that I loved and was really fun to play despite the fact that any IS-3 or above could rule me without some fancy tanking.

Of course when the beta closed and I was back to square one I was never going to go through the "grind" of getting it back because it took so long the first time. (and that was without free gold) And yes I did try to play it again without gold and got back up to a t-43 without gold and finally gave up becuase it felt waaaay to grindy to get back to my coveted t-54 even if I had dropped some money to get it.

I can only hope that the good lessons from WoT are being incorporated into MWO while the bad lessons are being dealt with as well(Which I am pretty sure they are because the first thing I thought when seeing the tech tree this morning was how much it looked like WoT with some well needed tweaks)

A CN9-D is clearly better than a CN9-A but I am pretty sure that a CN9-A will still have it's uses while a un-upgraded t-54 was a pain in the *** to drive.

And yes I am sure that the game designers have played WoT and I think it is a good thing because it is a great "starting" model.

My two cents

Edited by Denvian, 04 February 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[Elizander]

I primarily play World of Warcraft (though not much these days after burning out doing LFR Dragon Soul 5x a week on my alts and it looked exactly the same as normal and hard modes). The pilot trees look a lot like WoW talent trees and it almost seems like you can put (x) points to fill up one tree and the remaining (y) points in another (hence the need to have cross-role abilities in the early levels of each tree). I don't mind this system at all though I would prefer they didn't combine Attack and Defense trees together or at least give it a different name to make me not think that I can get 2 roles out of 1 tree.

I heard about WoT from this forum and since MW:O seems to be somewhat based off it (systemwise) I decided to try it out. Playing it normally to Tier 3 isn't much of a problem. I have several Tier 3 tanks and I have an SPG with a fully trained crew (the 75% one). I can see the allure of getting a nice cash grinding tank from the cash shop because for me, grinding out a Tier 4 is already a chore (well I am not really intent on spending all my time on WoT so it might be different for others). I play it in my spare time and it has a casual friendly design for the first three tiers (if you don't pay). I'm sure that if you have premium with a premium tank then grinding up Tier 4 and onwards is just as easy. I'm still playing it to someday get a Tier 5 heavy tank but I'm not rushing it. I only play it about three times a week for a couple of hours each session.

[Denvian]

Well I can tell you that Grinding past anything past tier-6 in world of tanks is really painful even with gold and without it is excruciating because of the system. (You can not transfer experience from a Cash making tank to another without gold). Not to mention that being in a Tier 6 tank means you are going to be up against only higher tier tanks making the experience not very fun at all. Couple that with the fact that if you want to join a Clan you have to be at least Tier 7 in most cases and it kinda sinks the game.

Really I can see MWO circumventing this because, like I said in the last post, a starting Centurion CN9-A should always be some use in a battle even if a CN9-D is better... of course this is only speculation but I think the amount versatility of mechs vs tanks will take care of this.

[Elizander]

If they rank mechs by a battle value system then they can get something similiar to the tier system in WoT. I really don't see it being handled by weight class/tonnage because a fully decked out medium (XL engines, etc) can give an old heavy model a run for its money.

[Mason Grimm]

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay wrong section for this...

Moved to OFF TOPIC

[Pvt Dancer]

I have played WoT for a few months. Personally, I have never bought a gold tank, nor have I bought gold consumables. I spend my gold on tank slots and 100% crew and the odd 24 or 72 hour premium. Pretty much I play a tank till first victory and switch. I have kept a few tanks that I do not sell and I play every tank type... (German TD, Russian SPG, American and German push for Tiger II, Patton, and Panther). Is it a grind as a free player? Sure. Do I mind? nope. Am I in a clan, no, and I am really not interested either. I am just not willing to expend the time required after being in FPS clans in the past.

What I like about WoT and what I would like to see in this game...

Real cash spent does not mean you 'win'.
I actually like the aspect that my tanks are competitive without gold spent in random battles. I like that 'gold tanks' are 'dead ends'. I do not mind that people use gold tanks to 'farm credits'. You can do that with free play too with your highest tier tank. I like that 7 bucks spent can give you enough gold to what I did above.

The ability to buy a premium account less than a month.
Got a day off of work? Get a 24 hour premium account. Have a week off during the holidays? Your set. You can even do a 3 day set. They should even work in the ability to get a 12 hour, 6 hour, and even 1 hour premium.

I like that free play and premium play are pretty much the same on the battlefield, just free play is slower. I do not think you will see 'Gold mechs' in MWO for awhile.

Sorry... to tired to keep typing... but I think WoT is a excellent guideline.

[Chuckie]

Cool conversation.. Does seem from the comments that I my intial feeling is about on task..

WoT has a good model to improve upon and if MW:O does so, and unlike WoT brings more immersion to the player there is no reason it won't be hugely successful. Which is exactly what I am hoping for.

[Kaemon]

Pvt Dancer, on 04 February 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

Real cash spent does not mean you 'win'.

You can't really compare WoW and WoT, they are entirely different genres.

I can't understand how people say this with a straight face (well I can, they haven't played long enough to get to the grind levels), if you spend money you have an increased chance of winning the match (and it's a requirement in Clan Wars, anyone saying different is blantantly lying).

There's another issue with Tier jumping into premium (cash bought) tanks, is that those players are frequently less experienced in tactics required to win matches (deathmatch on the same maps...over and over and ....) so the PUG matches are frequently low quality in regards to tactics (and therefore immersion) and can get, at times, absolutely atrocious with players that care about nothing more than kill stats.

It's a cash grab, first of a new spin on the FPS genre, but a cash grab all the same (and no one has proven it otherwise to me).

Edited by Kaemon, 04 February 2012 - 09:29 AM.

[Chuckie]

Kaemon, on 04 February 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

You can't really compare WoW and WoT, they are entirely different genres.

True but we are using them as baselines for MW:O which will merge the two. As you will have a pilot (as in WoW), and a Mech (as in WoT)

So its not comparing WoT and WoW, its more how do those two game models/mechanics/etc... compare to what we are expecting from MW:O

As I am sure the Devs here are quite familiar with all the games out there.. an open conversation between experienced players of all the different games might give them some ideas in what to do and what not to do.

Kaemon, on 04 February 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

I can't understand how people say this with a straight face (well I can, they haven't played long enough to get to the grind levels), if you spend money you have an increased chance of winning the match (and it's a requirement in Clan Wars, anyone saying different is blantantly lying).

This is a valid argument.. I only played WoT for about 4 hours last night.. so my experience would have have been more what a casual gamer experiences when he first comes to a game like it. That said even on a casual level I found it entertaining enough to spend $20 the 4 hours I played.

Kaemon, on 04 February 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

There's another issue with Tier jumping into premium (cash bought) tanks, is that those players are frequently less experienced in tactics required to win matches (deathmatch on the same maps...over and over and ....) so the PUG matches are frequently low quality in regards to tactics (and therefore immersion) and can get, at times, absolutely atrocious with players that care about nothing more than kill stats.

It's a cash grab, first of a new spin on the FPS genre, but a cash grab all the same (and no one has proven it otherwise to me).

Very true.. but everyone has to make money to build the game..

Wow on average has 10 million subscribers and each paid about $80-$100 for the game and $15 a month in fees. This has made Blizzard wildly successfull.

Yet look at Madden it sales on average of 3 million copies at $50.. and does well for EA.

So overall I think PGI would be estatic with an average customer spending about $50 over the course of the game.

So lets look at WoT, and its mechanics that has higher levels having to buy consumables to feel competitive at a higher level. Does that mechanic make the game a P2W, or since everyone does it more of a way to get you to pay since you have already invested dozens of hours on the game.

From what I have seen of the costs of gold and things at WoT, $5 an hour isnt close to what they are asking for if you want to be competitive in the higher levels. It's closer to probably 50 cents. Which is fair they are paying for the servers, upgrades, bandwidth, etc... WoW and ST:O and even Runescape have a similar mechanics now with thier F2P system.. they are F2P until level 20 or so.. then if you want to play the higher levels, then you have to pay for a subscription.

I mention the $5 a hour mark because thats what I have spent on WoT in the 4 hours I played it... Considering a 2 hour movie costs $10, or $5 a hour, a platform game gives you about 10 hours of entertainment at about $50 a game ($5 an hour). It would seem the industray standard and what people are willing to pay for entertainment is about $5 a hour.

The F2P model works because it is cheap entertainment for your entertainment dollar. But its not free forever.. and if anything it looks to be much cheaper than many other entertainment options.

Doubt it.. Bowling costs $3 to rent shoes, and $4-5 a game.. if your there for 3-4 hours.. you will probably spend about... ding ding ding.. $5 an hour. Not counting other games, food, etc..

The key for PGI and other gaming companies is making it so its engrossing enough for you to want to return and spend your entertaiment dollar with them over and over again. NOT to make it free for everyone forever, that doesnt pay the bills.

Back to WoT.. I jumped to a premium tank and it didnt do much for me.. I was able to out perform a lot of guys there.. I think if you want to jump you should be able too. I know as a regular player of MW games I don't need to "learn" the basics and if I want to jump then so be it. Its my entertainment dollar.. and I should enjoy myself.

In final I see the F2P games to buy stuff... or F2P w/ subscription being less like your old console games where you play for 10 hours and are done and more like the Bowling Alley / Movie Theater.. where they want you to come in and enjoy yourself and spend about $5 an hour while your there.

[Chuckie]

I can't believe casually playing I have dropped $46 on WoT in less than a week.. this F2P thing can be expensive if your a bit OCD, and bored.

[Chuckie]

Have to say in WoT my experience has gone from fun to frustrating in less than a week and I doubt I will pick it back up. Going into battles where you are dead in an instant without having time to figure where the shot came from, to repetitive grinding for XP.. etc.. I have to take back a lot of the good things I said about the game after the first two days I played it.

I now see what everyone says about grinding.. I am trying to get my artillery from 3 to 4 and after 4 hours I am 10% of the way to it. I mean really how come things went from 1000-300 to research to 14000 research is beyond me.. and at 200-500 xp per battle it takeing forever and it looks like going from 4 to 5 is going too be even worse. Having the curve from one tier to the other this huge is like hitting a brake on the fun rather quickly. If your a kid that has hours to grind.. maybe its fun.. but if your an adult with only 1-2 hours a day.. not so much. I find it more fun to play the lower levels than the middle ones.. as at least they seem balanced.

That said I was told you could buy XP, but all I can find is trading XP to Gold, not the other way around. Being able to short circuit the grinding is what I like best about the concept of F2P. I also read you may have to be part of a clan to buy XP.. that said I can't figure out how to do it.. its like you have to be an insider into the game. Just picking it up and looking around, good luck figuring it all out quickly.

There are icons in the main HUD that make no sense and can find no explanation of them in their guide. Same for joining clans or getting into a decent Tank company.. (that seems random too).

I do hope that joining units here, the HUD, etc.. etc.. etc.. will be simpler and more straight forward than WoT or at minimum be explained in detail on the website. I also hope the levels don't have such a harsh and almost insurmountably large jump from one to the other. If they are hopefully thier is a clear way to buy XP or Cbills to jump past the boring parts.

That all said, I really hope the Devs here have played WoT, so they know what works and what really doesn't. Because I am one of those that loves the game, loves the RP portion of the game, etc. etc.. etc.. but hate to grind and do the same thing over and over and over again just to build up XP to get what I want. I think even better is keep a couple of WoT virgins on staff, so once they think they are done with MW:O the have the virgins go play WoT and get a clear comparison of the two.