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A Very Short Essay On Why Tt Fanboys Are So Hardcore About The Rules.


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#1 BerryChunks

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM

Large laser = 9 damage, 2.12 DPS, 0.414 Damage Per Ton.
Medium Laser = 5 damage, 1.25 DPS, 1.25 Damage Per Ton.

The heat difference between the two is negligible per Damage.

LL = 36 Damage, 28 Heat, or 9 damage for 7 heat.
ML = 35 Damage, 28 Heat, or 8.75 damage for 7 heat.

ML are clearly Much more efficient. They are negligible in the fields they are worse in.

This is where hardpoints, IS being non-modular, and so on come in.

In TT, what you see is what you get. You can change weapons, but you're replacing one for one.

Clan was not only more damage, better heat sink, but also modular design. We are already using that modular design to a degree, with the hardpoint system. This is what made Clans so deadly, apart from their better weapons. Clans were actually OP, but balanced by fielding HALF the mech forces an IS would have.

In having this system, it becomes possible to "boat". You can drop some weapons to get a grouping of weapons that you specifically build towards supporting, making you more efficient.

Even though they NERFED DHS to stop medium laser boating, it will not stop it, nor will it make other weapons that are heavy more desirable, especially with the short ranges we deal with.

two MLs are nearly double the damage of 1 LL, 2/5th the tons, and though they generate 1 more point of heat, that is easily offset by 1-2 more heat sinks than the LL user gets, with still a whole ton of free space for armor or more weapons.

Boats are possible in a modular system. TT wasn't modular. This game tried to invoke the rules of TT regarding heat, damage, firing speed, etc, in its own variation. Modularity with hardpoints allowed boating. Boating caused DHS to be nerfed and people to cry, Yet it still isn't going to fix the problem, because:

The game design of Battletech is that things become less efficient the bigger they get, but their lower efficiency is compensated by being more powerful, and the armaments of smaller mechs being limited by the Basic Variant designs, with limited rules on swapping out weapons that is usually on a 1:1 basis.

For example: If you could stuff 1 Large laser there, you could stuff 1 Medium Laser instead. With hardpoints, if you could stuff 1 Large laser, but there's 2 en hardpoints, you can stuff 2 Medium lasers.

Nerfing heat sinks and other components will not solve the issue.

Larger weapons must provide enough benefits that the tradeoff is worth it. Take LRMs. An LRM 15 will produce less heat than 3 LRM 5. This is a good thing in the very heat hungry atmosphere of the current game. The tradeoff im making for it is one extra ton, but Im also opening that weapon system up to being crited and destroyed more easily.


In Summation:

Weapon damage must go up as efficiency in fitting goes down.
Weapon placements must be severly limited, otherwise individual weapons of smaller calibre are boated and come out superior in every regard to larger weapons.

As weapons go down in size in MWO, they lose rule #2. Actually its more of a Bell curve. Its bad for small lasers and large lasers, but good for medium lasers, right in the middle to take advantage of the versatility.

To modify this system, hardpoints must either be limited to a 1:1 basis with TT (which noone will like and they will complain about), or weapons, while they become less space efficient and more vuln to crits as they increase in size, must become more energy efficient than their smaller cousins.

Nerfing DHS will not solve the issue, because it's an issue with the core design. You just change the goalpost. You cannot build a straight house on a crooked foundation. Top down design is always going to fail and provide irregular and unpredictable results.

Edited by BerryChunks, 29 December 2012 - 12:20 AM.


#2 Remarius

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:03 AM

Short? Interesting read but might want to add a summary point at the top as most people won't read a long random spiel. In fact they could ignore everything except the last 3 paragraphs to see what you're arguing but probably won't read that far. ;)

There are some good weapon analysis posts/threads in the guides/general forum such as http://mwomercs.com/...-melt-properly/.

#3 One Medic Army

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:04 AM

Just wondering, have you ever actually read any of the TT manuals?

#4 impaledface

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:09 AM

Well I see where you are coming at. I only see your described problem happening with lasers though. For instance I use the largest ac's like an ac 20 or an ac 10 because they do there damage in one spot, instead of boating ac 2s that spread all their damage. Also for instance the lrms as you said generate less heat then if you had more little ones. So the only problem I see is with the large laser, in which case they could buff it so running 1 large laser is better then 2 mediums lasers. Personally I would prefer if they are going to buff the large laser, to just give it a little more damage or less heat.

#5 slash b slash

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:14 AM

Good post.

#6 BerryChunks

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:14 AM

View PostOne Medic Army, on 29 December 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

Just wondering, have you ever actually read any of the TT manuals?


I assume you havent.

http://mwomercs.com/...ttletech-rules/

You might go back and read my oldest posts. I said in the beginning boats would occur if hardpoints were modular. A lot of people did.

If they want to keep the modular system, instead of nerfing heat sinks, they need to rescale how much heat weapons generate.

Edited by BerryChunks, 29 December 2012 - 12:15 AM.


#7 One Medic Army

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:16 AM

View PostBerryChunks, on 29 December 2012 - 12:14 AM, said:


I assume you havent.

http://mwomercs.com/...ttletech-rules/

You might go back and read my oldest posts. I said in the beginning boats would occur if hardpoints were modular. A lot of people did.

If they want to keep the modular system, instead of nerfing heat sinks, they need to rescale how much heat weapons generate.

I was referring to:


View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

In TT, what you see is what you get. You can change weapons, but you're replacing one for one.

I wasn't aware of any hardpoint type system in TT whatsoever, just that if the GM considered any single retrofit to be too complex it couldn't be done without factory refit.

#8 SpiralRazor

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:21 AM

In table top, either youre using stock mechs from the tech manuals or youre not.


Again, you dont know what youre talking about..quit trolling.

#9 BerryChunks

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:21 AM

there's actually a rulebook stating what kind of refit can be done and where.

#10 BerryChunks

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:26 AM

View PostSpiralRazor, on 29 December 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

In table top, either youre using stock mechs from the tech manuals or youre not.


Again, you dont know what youre talking about..quit trolling.


This is my problem with the atmosphere here.

Posts that go "DHS nerfs SUCKS IM QUITTING/ECM SUCKS IM QUITTING ZOMG", actually get valid responses.

#11 FrostPaw

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:28 AM

So essentially you're saying customizing IS mechs is bad because players can build better mechs and that makes Clan mechs less powerful.

Seems like a clever balance mechanic to me, because sooner or later Clan mechs will fight IS mechs and they won't be matched 2:1

#12 BerryChunks

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:38 AM

View PostFrostPaw, on 29 December 2012 - 12:28 AM, said:

So essentially you're saying customizing IS mechs is bad because players can build better mechs and that makes Clan mechs less powerful.

Seems like a clever balance mechanic to me, because sooner or later Clan mechs will fight IS mechs and they won't be matched 2:1


No. The issues that we had with boating, which cause DHS to be nerfed, were induced by the modular system. Nerfing ancillary objects will not solve the core issue, because DHS aren't causing the issue. The TT balance was based around this linchpin of design limitation that I'm talking about. Remove that and the whole thing comes apart. The only fix is to go back to that design or rework Ton, heat, weight values to work with the modular system.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Omnimech

I invite anyone to read exactly what an Omnimech is and why it was invented. I want you to explain the difference between a Battlemech and an Omnimech, Spiral. You sound like you know.

Edited by BerryChunks, 29 December 2012 - 12:40 AM.


#13 One Medic Army

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:39 AM

Clan mechs are getting something that IS aren't.
They're getting omni slots.

A friend got a graphical glitch on his mechlab back in closed beta, which let him see the value ranges for several of the textfields. There were several types of hardpoints: ballistic, energy, missile, omni (don't recall if AMS was there or not).

So for omnimechs you'll get to decide not only your entire weapons loadout (up to a maximum number) but also where they're all placed. You get to decide if those 2 arm omni slots are 2 medium lasers, or 2 AC/2s.

It's also possible that we as players will be unable to put clan-tech into our IS mechs (at least initially) so clan mechs will get not only more flexible hardpoints but better tech. (In TT putting Clan-tech onto IS mechs is pretty difficult)

In TT the advantage clan mechs got from swapping weapons around isn't what was possible, it's what was possible in the field.

[edit] I'm somewhat new to TT, but I'm playing in a 3049 era game and so have looked over all the IS and Clan rules. If I'm wrong about any of the above, feel free to correct me.

Edited by One Medic Army, 29 December 2012 - 12:42 AM.


#14 Sug

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:50 AM

Maybe i'm too tired but what is the point of this post?


View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

ML are clearly Much more efficient. They are negligible in the fields they are worse in.


Ok.

View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

This is where hardpoints, IS being non-modular, and so on come in.


I'm with you.

View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

In TT, what you see is what you get. You can change weapons, but you're replacing one for one.


Starting to lose me but I still agree somewhat...

View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Clan was not only more damage, better heat sink, but also modular design. We are already using that modular design to a degree, with the hardpoint system. This is what made Clans so deadly, apart from their better weapons. Clans were actually OP, but balanced by fielding HALF the mech forces an IS would have.


Totally lost me.

View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

two MLs are nearly double the damage of 1 LL, 2/5th the tons, and though they generate 1 more point of heat, that is easily offset by 1-2 more heat sinks than the LL user gets,


Just not true. You're switching from TT values to MWO values and combining things it's ******* chaos!

View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Modularity with hardpoints allowed boating. Boating caused DHS to be nerfed and people to cry


My brains!!

View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Larger weapons must provide enough benefits that the tradeoff is worth it.


Ok you're bringing me back down.


View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Take LRMs. An LRM 15 will produce less heat than 3 LRM 5. This is a good thing in the very heat hungry atmosphere of the current game. The tradeoff im making for it is one extra ton, but Im also opening that weapon system up to being crited and destroyed more easily.



What is your point? Are you arguing for full modularity? Are you supporting hardpoints? Are you saying what is going to happen with omnimechs?? Aaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!


View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

Weapon placements must be severly limited, otherwise individual weapons of smaller calibre are boated and come out superior in every regard to larger weapons.


It already is with the hardpoint system!!


View PostBerryChunks, on 28 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

As weapons go down in size in MWO, they lose rule #2.


Omg there are rules now?? What is real???

Edited by Sug, 29 December 2012 - 12:51 AM.


#15 Smeghead87

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:51 AM

I'm not sure I understand the OP's argument. Is your issue only with mechs that have more hardpoints than they use in their stock configuration? If I take out a large laser from an energy hardpoint, I can't put 2 medium lasers into that one energy hardpoint.

As far as I knew, TT was much less restrictive than the hardpoint system. It was balanced by the skill of your technicians and the time it would take. Also if they botched the job, the mech would be harder to pilot. But that doesn't work in MWO because we aren't having to manage a retinue of technicians. We are just the mechwarriors piloting the mechs.

#16 Sug

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 12:52 AM

Seriously the most elegant and cunning troll I've ever encountered. You've completely mindraped me.

Edited by Sug, 29 December 2012 - 12:52 AM.


#17 zariaah

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:14 AM

there is so many things wrong with this post i dont know where to begin. but i will try.

1. TT players (fanboys as you call them) are " hardcore "depending on the version. (i assume 1st/2nd editions before the fall of FASA) because the ruleset is already there. there is a decade of playtestiing and rules at PGI 's disposal. and it should be used.

2. hardpoints dont exist in the TT rules you "know"

3. clan technology was modular (close to this games hardpoints but not quite)

4. most games of tt were played with premade (trial mechs like in here) mechs. however if the RPG aspect (mechwarrior rpg) or salvage was used you could modify a mech for campaign use.

WHAT will fix this game: (imho)

1. customization/hardpoints scale with the size of the mech. (eg: a raven has 5 hardpoints, and atlas has 20)

2 hardpoints scale with the mech class. (eg: lights limited to small weapons in hardpoints, medium limited to medium, and heavy .. heavy

what is a medium hardpoint? well this means in a slot intended for medium lasers( or less) you cannot squeeze in an ERPPC. there is not room in the chassis for such a weapon, nor is there proper heat sinks feeding that location ( to name a few reasons).

now i think i will post this in suggestions to see what people think there.

#18 Sandslice

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:18 AM

@OP:
"In TT, what you see is what you get. You can change weapons, but you're replacing one for one."

Not necessarily. Using MWO terms:
-Swapping a weapon (or battery) to a weapon (or battery) of the same hardpoint type, which has the same or fewer critical slots, is a type A (field) refit.
-Swapping a weapon to a different hardpoint type, with the same or fewer critical slots, is a type B (field) refit.
-Swapping to a larger weapon by critical slots is a type C (maintenance) refit.
-Introducing weapons to new locations is a type D (maintenance) refit.

Examples, using the Awesome 8q:
A: Swapping a PPC for LL+ML.
B: Swapping a PPC for an SRM-6 and the first ton of ammo (more ammo is another matter.)
C: Swapping a PPC for a Gauss Rifle. (But swapping the Gauss Rifle for two PPCs would only be B.)
D: Squeezing a PPC into the left arm.
(Factory refits are things that affect structure, such as the switch to/from endo, or swapping engines.)

That's, in VERY brief, how TT refitting works for weapons.

#19 Thirdstar

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:21 AM

View PostBerryChunks, on 29 December 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:


This is my problem with the atmosphere here.

Posts that go "DHS nerfs SUCKS IM QUITTING/ECM SUCKS IM QUITTING ZOMG", actually get valid responses.


That's not actually true. Those threads get buried under rage and trolls.

I just want to add that MWO is also trying to evoke the customization from previous titles in the franchise. Your intent is noble but the solution you're advocating is far too restrictive for my personal liking.

Edited by Thirdstar, 29 December 2012 - 01:23 AM.


#20 Thirdstar

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 01:26 AM

View Postzariaah, on 29 December 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

there is so many things wrong with this post i dont know where to begin. but i will try.

1. TT players (fanboys as you call them) are " hardcore "depending on the version. (i assume 1st/2nd editions before the fall of FASA) because the ruleset is already there. there is a decade of playtestiing and rules at PGI 's disposal. and it should be used.


I want to address this. While you're absolutely right about having a preexisting core ruleset, there is no such set built around a sim like shooter that is MWO. Some translation has to take place which will oftentimes invalidate a lot of the balancing and playtesting that the TT ruleset enjoys.





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