56 replies to this topic

[Polymorphyne]

My point is it does not matter how you lose a war- its war, no one fights fair in war. Whether you are outmaneuvred on the battlefield or in the court of public opinion, you still lost whatever you were fighting for. America and South Vietnam tried to prevent North Korea from annexing South Vietnam, and failed.
Russia had a similar experience in Afghanistan, as did America- neither succeeded in eliminating insurgent forces. I cannot think of any instance in which an occupying military force succeeded in bringing peace to a hostile region full of insurgents. It usually just leads to a long drawn out occupation, followed by an eventual withdrawal when the occupying forces public gets tired of body bags and the military gets tired of wasting its resources.

[Coralld]

In any case, back to GDI and NOD. I'd have to say, neither would win against the true power of the Scrin as the Scrin they faced was just a "small" harvesting group.

[Stahlseele]

But that's like asking:
who would win, Davion or Kurita?
and you answering: clan Wolf.

[Coralld]

I already gave my straight up answer of the GDI vs NOD question, so I can throw the Scrin out there.

[Catamount]

Longsword, I think you might miss a few important things there.

First, public morale can remain very high in war, troop losses or no, if the war is perceived as being important to society. World War II certainly never suffered the problems of, say, Vietnam or our present war in Afghanistan.


Secondly, there's a crucial difference between the US in Vietnam, the USSR an Afghanistan, and, say, WWII: the soldiers in the former were largely conscripts. History has shown that the difference between conscript and volunteer soldiers plays a very vital role in how well a military does in a conflict. The US lost Vietnam for many of the same reasons the British lost the war over here in the 1770s, the conscript-volunteer difference being chiefly among them.


Now, to my knowledge we don't know how GDI recruits soldiers, but at absolute worst, their soldiers won't suffer a morale penalty as compared to Nod soldiers; they have something a lot better to fight for, and there's a much bigger chance that they're typical, volunteer citizen soldiers, at least some of them, that being the nature of a democratic society. Those soldiers are probably also a cut above Nod soldiers in both training and education, again, that being the nature of a democratic society vs an oppressive one.

The GDI probably also have a much greater production capacity than Nod, again, because we're talking about a modern, relatively democratic and free society, certainly in comparison to the oppressive religious extremist organization they're facing.

So I'd place the effectiveness of GDI soldiers, and their society, above that of the Brotherhood of Nod, on both counts, any day.

[Catamount]

Basically, we're talking about the difference between Iran and the United States here. Honestly, who do you think would win a war there?

Or if you wanted nations of equal size, it might be analogous to the citizen soldiers of Athens, fighting the conscripted Persian army at the Battle of Marathon. You want to know how that battle worked out? First, the grossly outnumbered Greeks handed the Persians their rear ends on a plate, then when the Persians tried to sail around and take Athens behind their back, the Athenians basically RAN ACROSS THEIR COUNTRY, all the way back to Athens, and kicked the rear ends of the Persians, again.

Edited by Catamount, 24 February 2012 - 10:55 AM.

[Beaton]

It's a simple answer; the Brotherhood will win the war.

Forgetting that Kane is immortal and able to travel in time and space (Aide to Stalin in Red Alert)
The Brotherhood fills its ranks with conscripts, fanatics, and soldiers. Whilst GDI is technologically superior they lack the manpower to keep up in a prolonged fight, and cannot keep the same level of support on their homefront as is capable from a dictatorship.

[Coralld]

To ease some of the tension, and something we all would enjoy. I bring to you Kains Wrath "ACT ON INSTINCT"

[Catamount]

Beaton, on 24 February 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

It's a simple answer; the Brotherhood will win the war.

Forgetting that Kane is immortal and able to travel in time and space (Aide to Stalin in Red Alert)
The Brotherhood fills its ranks with conscripts, fanatics, and soldiers. Whilst GDI is technologically superior they lack the manpower to keep up in a prolonged fight, and cannot keep the same level of support on their homefront as is capable from a dictatorship.

but, bu... you just mostly explained why Nod would LOSE the war!

As an oppressive religious fundamentalist society, Nod is going to have a less advanced, less industrialized economy, and in turn, far fewer people for the size of their nation, than the GDI, which is basically your typical free, democratic society. The GDI may or may not draft soldiers, but given the stakes, our own history suggests they probably don't have to, because the recruitment offices would likely be filling with volunteers, who will easily match, if not exceed the Nod numbers, while having superior education, training, and will to fight.


on the other hand, being able to travel through time... yeah that's a tough one to counter

[Coralld]

Lets see... Join NOD which is led by a madman who talks about Tiberium being our salvation even though it will eventually kill you no matter how augmented you are. ORE, join GDI and do everything I can to stop the spread of Tiberium and save the day... I go with GDI.

When I join GDI, can I haz Juggernaut? Because I always wanted to drive one of those things and yell into the load speaker and say "I'M THE JUGGERNAUT!!"

[Mesmer Wolf]

Coralld, on 24 February 2012 - 11:17 AM, said:

Lets see... Join NOD which is led by a madman who talks about Tiberium being our salvation even though it will eventually kill you no matter how augmented you are. ORE, join GDI and do everything I can to stop the spread of Tiberium and save the day... I go with GDI.

When I join GDI, can I haz Juggernaut? Because I always wanted to drive one of those things and yell into the load speaker and say "I'M THE JUGGERNAUT!!"

Meh. I would rather have a Mk. II any day. I mean that machine dominated the field, unless you offer me a M.A.R.V., then I'll take that. I'm surprised that noone has mentioned the Ion Cannon, considering that in this discussion NOD doesn't have NUKES, GDI still retains their trump card. I'm a GDI commander and see a building full of insurgents, I'll call in a strike rather than send my troopers to storm said building.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, because using Weapons of Mass Destruction on probably civilian targets is so much better . . .
And technically, the GDI can be considered the bad guys . .

[Mesmer Wolf]

Stahlseele, on 24 February 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Yeah, because using Weapons of Mass Destruction on probably civilian targets is so much better . . .
And technically, the GDI can be considered the bad guys . .

Have you been watching Kane's personal media outlets? As far as I am aware any atrocites that GDI has committed have all been propaganda. They have always tried to minimized civilian casualties, and actively work to destory Tiberium. My methods are more a little more ruthless than the average GDI officer.

Edited by Mesmer Wolf, 24 February 2012 - 11:54 AM.

[Stahlseele]

Kane knows the Tiberium can'T be destroyed.
He knew the Scrin were coming.
He tried to make humanity into a race that would survive the tiberium and could stand up to the scrin.
It would have meant the end of the species, it would have meant the death of many, but mankind, itself, would, technically, have survived.
While GDI is trying to hold Humanity back in it's reservations and trying to stop NOD from making these steps.

[Catamount]

So in other words, Nod really is as crazy and deranged as they sound. by the time Nod was done with the human race, so little meaningfully would be left, "survival" is a moot point.

GDI, on the other hand, was in an effort that might well have been successful in stopping Tiberium spread. That's kind of the power of science right there and societies like that of the GDI tend to be pretty good at it. If a way to stop Tiberium spread existed, and there was no reason to believe that wasn't the case (it's just a physical substance; it's not magical), they would have likely found it, except that Nod is making that effort as difficult as possible.


So you can either join the crazed, evil, religious fanatic side who's own goals guarantee no chance of saving the human race in any meaningful sense, or the typical modern democratic society of good guys who, at the very least, have a pretty darned good shot of saving the human race in a way that is meaningful.

If neither Nod or GDI were basically the same as groups, I'd still go with GDI, because I'd rather risk giving up Nod's non-solution for the chance to actually save humanity, and preserve an actual future worth having, than guarantee humanity's doom so that some completely non-meaningful bit of us could survive, with no real future.

That the GDI is simply a better society in the first place makes me even more inclined to support them.


Anyways, that's how I look at it. Either way, I think the GDI would handily win anyways

[Mesmer Wolf]

Stahlseele, on 24 February 2012 - 12:04 PM, said:

Kane knows the Tiberium can'T be destroyed.
He knew the Scrin were coming.
He tried to make humanity into a race that would survive the tiberium and could stand up to the scrin.
It would have meant the end of the species, it would have meant the death of many, but mankind, itself, would, technically, have survived.
While GDI is trying to hold Humanity back in it's reservations and trying to stop NOD from making these steps.

Tiberium can't be destroyed huh? So how do the refineries convert the stuff into usable material? Tiberium disintegrates when subjected to certain sonic frequencies as well, or do you not remember the Disruptors and the sonic fences? Secondly Kane is one of two humans, assuming he is infact human, that can translate the Tacitus, which contained data about the Scrin, among other things.

[Stahlseele]

Well, can't be destroyed for good.
It will keep spreading no matter how fast they destroy it.
So best to go along with it . .

He is, basically, to the NOD/GDI-Universe what Jaime Wolf was for the Battle-Tech Universe . .

[Coralld]

Actually, when Tiberium is destroyed by a certain sonic frequency it is gone for good as it breaks it down all the way to the atomic level. So it can be destroyed completely, the problem is that it spread really fast.

[Adridos]

Catamount, on 24 February 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

So you can either join the crazed, evil, religious fanatic side who's own goals guarantee no chance of saving the human race in any meaningful sense, or the typical modern democratic society of good guys who, at the very least, have a pretty darned good shot of saving the human race in a way that is meaningful.

So why do the people worship gods rather than join some enviromental group to make the world a better place?

What seems straightforward for you, is absolute non-sense for someone else.

[Coralld]

Adridos, on 24 February 2012 - 02:26 PM, said:

So why do the people worship gods rather than join some enviromental group to make the world a better place?

What seems straightforward for you, is absolute non-sense for someone else.

Because most form of religions or faiths don't revolve around self mutilation.

Edited by Coralld, 24 February 2012 - 02:39 PM.