30 replies to this topic

[Mordhar]

I am sorry for my poor English. Half of this post is a Google translate. I try to use simple language and not to use special terminology to minimize translation errors, but some problems are inevitable.



I always liked this ‘mech. In unseen (Glaug) version, it was good. In reseen it became even better.

But there is some problems. Marauder (at least in its standard configuration) has weak armor, average weaponry, heat management problems, slow speed and no jumpjets. Despite of that, in all books/articles it always depicted as very powerful, deadly effective machine, one of the best ‘mechs in IS history.

In reality, there are other things that can make certain chassis an effective combat machine, it is not mere numbers. Therefore, I decided to actually tweak its design a little, to give it effectiveness it supposed to have. Additionally I tried to make it look less generic and more unique. I started with current (reseen) design, and changed placement of some parts and weapons while attempting to stay as close as possible to original. All changes I made to canonical design come with full explanation why I decided to do it. As a result, there is ‘mech which consists 80-85% of reseen parts, with others made from scratch. No unseen elements, except placement (but not design) of autocannon.

At first, I wanted to make some sketches and stop at that. And because I never been good at drawing sketches I decided to make simple 3d model of it. Well, “simple” was lost somewhere in first 20-30 minutes, and model quickly started to grow into another full-detailed hi-poly. After I realized that, I decided to make some quick WIP renders and post them here. When I have more time to finish the model and make hi-quality renders, I will update this post (if someone really will want this).


I want to clearly state that I do not try to insist on my design been better than canonical. I am not trying to be some kind of expert or guru. I only wanted to make redesign of my favorite ‘mech, and after it turned out to be good enough to show, I decided to post it here. It can give me some clues about problems, that I probably overlooked, and maybe can give some ideas to someone else who planning to work on a same ‘mech. It based on only one canonical and legally valid design – reseen. And no, this is not imitation of Flyingdebris’s style.


IMAGES:

Spoiler

Note that I made it for standard configuration. Because it is how this ‘mech supposed to be designed, with all later variants based on standard.

List of changes:

1) Autocannon placed on top of the torso, it is only one thing taken from the unseen design.
Yes, I know this is vulnerable position. But benefits of this choise are bigger than disadvantages. I will try to explain in detail.

Spoiler

Marauder is a long-range direct fire support/sniper ‘mech in its base configuration. It not has enough short-range firepower and armor for close combat, and no missiles for indirect fire. Also heat management problems will arise when trying to continuously fire all weapons. Therefore, it must rely on precision shots of its two PPCs, with AC fire to fill pauses between PPC shots, m-lasers reserved for self-defense.

AC 5 does not have large single-shot damage, but have good rate of fire. So it needs to be fired continuously at the same spot. While placement of it in side torso protects weapon from damage, it also makes impossible to aim without torso twisting. It can be tolerable for slow recharging hard hitting weapons like PPCs or Gauss rifles, but not good for ACs (except for AC 10-20).

Moving autocannon to top (unseen-like) position allows it to be aimed independently of torso. It also makes rocking from ‘mech’s movement to less affect targeting. Additionally it makes possible to hit fast moving targets and fire in direction not in front of ‘mech’s torso.

As for vulnerability, it is not such a big problem. Even losing AC dose not cripple ‘mech’s damage capabilities completely. And I will be glad if someone with enough skill to hit this relatively small target with powerful enough weapons to actually destroy it, insists on doing this instead of targeting a 1-1,5 m below to the large cockpit window.

2) Lasers moved to separate articulated turret under cockpit.

Spoiler

Marauder has 5 weapons: 2 PPCs, AC 5 and 2 medium lasers. With 2/3 of damage potential in PPCs and 1/3 in all other weapons. And light armor makes it easy to lose an arm. With lasers in different location, it is possible to have full short-range capabilities even with both arms destroyed.

3) Cockpit window made wider, to give a pilot better visibility at extreme angles.

Spoiler

It is made to better utilize ability to point all weapons independently of torso direction. With AC on top, lasers in rotatable turret and PPCs in arms, there is no weapons fixed and all of them can be fired at wide arc. Combined with torso twist it allows hitting targets in opposite direction to where ‘mech moves.
It also makes cockpit easier to hit from side, but only slightly.

4) Shoulders made lower. Arms moved to the front. Some changes to the stance and profile. It all made to accommodate new position of the autocannon and subsequent changes to the center of mass.

Spoiler

With autocannon in new place shoulders of canonical design intersects with AC movement. To address the problem they were moved down and forward (so they not intersect with legs either). Torso made more horizontal-shaped and tilted down to allow AC rotate freely and aim down at some angles.

5) Hips made less wide to further minimize rocking from movement. Some changes to proportions of the legs. Feet changed from 2 toes front/1 back to reverse (1 large front/ 2 back) with built-in shock absorbers.

Spoiler

All it made for maximal smoothness of moment, to allow precise aiming of weapons at full walk/run speed.

Areal size of feet also being increased 2-2,5 times compared to original. It lowers ground pressure to approximately 8 ton/m^2 and increases stability and ability to move over difficult terrain and non-solid surfaces.

6) Air intakes/radiator grills at sides of cockpit placed vertically. It makes them more effective and less vulnerable. It also allows arms to be placed closer together, narrowing front profile.

7) Lower arms made slightly more “hexagonal box” like. It is completely a visual decision aiming to make them look more like arms of Timberwolf (MadCat).

Spoiler

According to lore, clan omnimech Timberwolf received IS designation MadCat because it was mistakenly shown on IS’s targeting computers as CAT (Catapult) or MAD (Marauder). While resemblance of the Catapult is obvious, reseen Marauder have very little remblance of the Timberwolf. Therefore, I decided to change arms to look more like Timberwolf’s, because it is most obvious part of the ‘mech, which Catapult needs to be completely looking like MadCat. Combined with thinner upper legs and horizontally stretched torso, Marauder now can be really mistaken for Timberwolf. At least at night, from 1-kilometer range and by someone who completely drunk.

As a result, there is a ‘mech with same numerical characteristics as original design, but much more effective.

All of its weapons are now articulated. Good field of view allows aiming at extreme angles to the right/left. It allows to pilot to aim and fire all weapons in 30-40 degree arc in front of the ‘mech, independent of torso twist speed, and all except either one of PPCs (2/3 of all damage potential) at angles up to 80-90 degrees to the torso direction. Combined with torso twist it effectively allows to fire at target, while moving in opposite direction. It also eliminates the need to stop moving to accurately aim with AC. Which allows to effectively use all weapons in movement, making ‘mech more difficult target and compensating for the weak armor.

Ability to accurately and quickly aim its weapons allows it to excel at anti-aircraft/light ‘mech hunting tasks. And in combat with stronger opponents it can use advanced maneuvers, while still been able to hit target.
All of that makes this design a very powerful and effective ‘mech, requiring very good piloting skills. This fits perfectly with how it is supposed to be according to lore.



Some answers to questions you may have:

No, it is not an attempt to make some “reunseen” or “unreseen” design, by making reseen look more like unseen. Any resemblances, in fact, come only from AC being on top of torso. Because I think, it is the best position for this weapon. I can be wrong, but century of tanks’ evolution cannot.
Placement of one weapon in different location not makes it completely different ‘mech. ACs in Battletech universe are not automatic cannons used on modern aircraft. Term “auto” refers to automatic loading ammunition with ability to choose which type off ammo to load. It makes ACs exactly the same weapon, which used on modern tanks. So it should be mounted on ‘mech in the same way.

Ejection. I know that there is a cannon barrel directly on top of the cockpit. And it interferes with ejection process. This problem can be solved in two ways, and I think the best choice to use them both. First, cannon can be automatically rotated in first phase of ejection procedure. Angle of 5-10 degrees should be enough and can be achieved very quickly. Second way is to remove cannon completely, using pre-placed charges in construction. These way blades of modern helicopters’ rotor removed during ejection. Explosive charges in construction do not make it less reliable, because it already has ammunition that can explode. In fact, every ‘mech have explosive charges installed directly into cockpit - the ones that remove armor plating before ejection.

Added vulnerability of the cockpit and autocannon. I already described it in detail, but in short terms it not a big problem for this ‘mech. It never been intended as impenetrable wall, it is not an Atlas.

Where are all hand/footholds, hatches, armor seams? Why it so blocky and ugly? As I stated before, this model is still in WIP (work in progress) state and is far from being finished. It lacks almost all fine detail that I plan to add lately, and have no UVs or textures to speak of.

Edited by Mordhar, 24 February 2012 - 05:12 AM.

[Maurice]

nice lookng mech dont like lazer under the cockpit but nice anyway

[GDL Irishwarrior]

At first I was a bit leery, but after reading your rationale for each redesign choice, I started to like your version more and more. After reading all your explanations, the only possible problem I still have is that cockpit. As it is, there doesn't seem to be a center torso to put armor on - just the cockpit. Everything else, though, makes perfect sense, and I can't wait to see the extra detail you add to this design. Great work!

Edited by GDL Irishwarrior, 24 February 2012 - 11:24 AM.

[Mautty the Bobcat]

My only issue is the cockpit, its too large. You've gotta figure, this is a 100 ton giant machine. The pilot himself is gonna be at most as tall as that thing's ankle, and I think I'm even being generous.

[Vexgrave Lars]

I totally get where you were headed with the design. Simply many things for the canon mechs (hatches, ammo storage, etc) has been missing since forever and I even see that its missing in some of the official concept work. I like that your thinking about this nuance items. Your details on the joints is amazing (I assume you built it with bones). The vents are very well done as are your feet, something I still have problems with. All in all a very nice design and shows a great love of the game and the mech!

Bravo!

[Kip Wilson]

Well done! I like this design very much and would consider it a good replacement for the Unseen Marauder. One suggestion, the lower window seems to be too much. If it were me I would replace the lower cockpit glass with say something like a FLIR (forward looking infra red) sensor, maybe similar to what is on the Apache attack chopper.

Edited by Kip Wilson, 24 February 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[Polymorphyne]

I would actually incorporate those lensy/camera things into the laser turret.

[The Smith]

I like this a lot, it's very well thought out, and I think it is a great compromise between the two designs. Also as the Project Phoenix mechs are supposed to be upgraded rebuilds of the originals. You can see the family resemblance in this, without having to believe that the redesign is the same as the unseen original.

[Mordhar]

Thank you for your feedback.

Yes, I also think that window is excessively big. Initially I wanted to stay as close to original design as possible. But on a second thought, I think there is no harm to make it a little more realistic. Not too much, so it still similar to canonical design.

I do not have enough time to work on this model in the last two days, so at this time it is only a minor update for the front window/center torso. It still large, but at least reasonably large this time.

I also added some human figures and measure scales (with 1m segments) to scene, to compare scale of ‘mech’s parts with objects with known size.

IMAGES:

Spoiler

I agree that lasers look completely out of place. I still do not know how to make them to look better, but I hope to figure it out eventually.
As for the FLIR or similar sensor/optical devices, I was planning to add them lately. And yes, I actually want to make it part of the laser turret.

I think the turret needs redesign. This is why I do not touch turret at this time. But I certainly will work on it lately, when I have better understanding of what it needs to look like.

@KiP Wilson
Thank you for the photo. Understanding how it should look is one thing; actually having a picture for reference is another. And I was too lazy to find it by myself.

[Polymorphyne]

I do think the laser turret is something to keep with rather than moving the lasers elsewhere- it makes alot more sense in a turret.

[GDL Irishwarrior]

Longsword, on 25 February 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

I do think the laser turret is something to keep with rather than moving the lasers elsewhere- it makes alot more sense in a turret.

Agreed - the reasoning behind having that turret is sound. A little tweaking/refinement of the turret's design, and it'll be perfect

[Cyote13]

The Marauder is also my favorite...and I would pilot one based on your ideas here


Великие усилия, я тоже люблю мародер

[Lyon]

I know that the guns/arms/torso are more interesting to some, but given recent experience in actual fabricating, I LOVE your design for the feet. I can see how to make that actually operate now. You have allowed the feet to flex side-to-side using that Z-axis pipe, and the upper ankle joint lets the foot do the normal tilt to nearly 90 degrees total (40-45 each way). I hated that cloven-hoof design on the original, yet this 4-toed variant gives you a somewhat similar footprint without the unflexible hoof. VERY good design. I'd like to build something like it one day.

Edited by Lyon, 26 February 2012 - 01:27 PM.

[Mordhar]

Longsword, on 25 February 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

I do think the laser turret is something to keep with rather than moving the lasers elsewhere- it makes alot more sense in a turret.

GDL Irishwarrior, on 26 February 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

Agreed - the reasoning behind having that turret is sound. A little tweaking/refinement of the turret's design, and it'll be perfect

I think there is some misunderstanding. I really wish I could put my thoughts into word properly. I try to make it more clear.

I do not intend to remove the turret and move lasers to other location. I just think it is not very good as it is and needs some tweaking.

[Warsong74]

Your approach is much better for me than the "starved chicken" from Project Phoenix that calls himself marauder.
The Maro is a 75 tons Heavy Mech. A nightmare to his opponents on the Battlefield (like it is written in the first books). So he should even look like heavy Mech.
And your Maro has the right look.

Cool work!

[Mordhar]

Work on model being slow recently. But I finally added some detail to AC. As always any suggestions/criticism are welcome.

GM Whirlwind AC/5 (http://www.sarna.net.../Whirlwind_AC_5)

More images:

Spoiler

Edited by Mordhar, 02 March 2012 - 01:05 PM.

[Harlequin4457]

It's a very nice design. Great work, but I'm still in love with my original Marauder, I'm afraid!

Nevertheless, I could go for it. It's very well done.

Edited by Harlequin4457, 02 March 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[Vexgrave Lars]

AP rounds... If you want to get picky

[HanaYuriko]

I should get back to doing that level of detail again. This is an excellent start to an established design.

[Mordhar]

Vexgrave Lars, on 02 March 2012 - 12:23 PM, said:

AP rounds... If you want to get picky

Thank you for the picture.

Kinetic penetrators for Russian tank cannons have slightly different sabots. So my model for the APFSDS round based on pictures of the 120mm ammo for M256 cannon of M1A2 Abrams, because Battletech guns probably closer to USA weapons. I also made shell shorter to made it closer to sarna.net image (I think 600 years of technological progress will allow it without decrease in effectiveness).