55 replies to this topic

[Frantic Pryde]

Pules lasers... some of the more troubling weapons in the Mechwarrior series. I don't think anyones really got them right yet. In battletech, they are the most accurate weapons in the game and still hit pretty hard. I'm curious how these will be handled in this game. I'm pretty sure they are gonna be available right from the jump and this seemingly small detail is one of the things I'm most curious about. What do you all think?

[Dymlos2003]

I'm pretty sure Pulse lasers aren't going to be in the initial release. Well they probably would be really rare to find

[Kasai Oni]

As far as I know, pulse lasers didn't reappear in the Inner Sphere until after the Clan Invasion started. But when they do I appear, I hope they're a continuous fire weapon, rather than their MW4 iteration where everything was a burst fire style. That and the flamers burst were the most irritating thing for me in MW4.

[AJC]

The inner sphere recovered the ability to make pulse lasers by 3037 although they weren't really widespread everywhere until around the clan invasion.

also the they Inner sphere ER large laser was also re-debuted then it took the clan invasion for the IS ER tech versions of medium and small lasers.

most people don't realize that the inner sphere recovered a lot of advance tech before the clans hit.

but the clan invasion novels mostly seemly forgot about this.

Edited by AJC, 01 November 2011 - 10:00 PM.

[Dmitri Valenov]

Pulse Lasers really weren't available till after the Clan invasion. I believe this game is set before that so I don't think we'll see the Pulse lasers just yet.

[epicalphonse]

Pulse Lasers are a tricky matter in Mechwarrior--as Pryde has stated, they're accurate to no small degree in Battletech. In Mechwarrior 2, they seemed to exhibit little difference from normal lasers, really. In MW3, they were notably effective with their ability to literally stay focused on a part for the duration of their attack, and in MW4 they...felt underpowered (but then again, compared to the missileboats everywhere, what didn't?)--short range and lower single-hit damage but seemingly rapid-fire and lower heat compared to their normal and ER counterparts.

How will this be handled in MWO? I wouldn't be able to tell. In reality, most weapons in this could be balanced along eight different axes:
Damage per hit
Rate of Fire
Accuracy/Grouping -- how accurate a given weapon is, and in the case of multihit weapons such as ACs, how tightly-grouped its shots are
Ammo capacity/usage -- Typically the domain of missile and ballistic weapons, really, though energy weapons would have to be balanced around the fact that they don't use it.
Heat generation -- A feature more relevant to energy weapons, though some of the artillery may have notable heat generation.
Range -- How far the weapon can fire. A subset of this can also be considered as far as how far it can fire accurately or effectively, though this can cross over into Accuracy.
Weight -- One of the two "costs" to a mech.
Volume -- Represented in MW4 by slots, but this is another one of the things you typically "pay" for in equipping a weapon.

For the most part, you can pretty much balance every MW weapon along all of these, though some may have other features that can be involved (Most missiles are vulnerable to AMS to some degree. Some weapons had a splash effect, or could fly in an arc. Gauss rifles were generally solid at knocking people around. PPCs tended to fizzle your display a bit when you got hit by one in 4. So on.) I'd trust the devs to know what they're doing on this end, really.

[Valkyrie Vewas]

really day one and your going to start a topic on pulse lasers....

[Frantic Pryde]

Two days actually and yes, clearly I am...pulse lasers where fun in mw2. I feel like they got the rapid fire right but they heated up WAY to much.

[DFDelta]

IMO pulse lasers should function like MW:LLs X-pulse lasers.
Firing a pulse every 0.x seconds as long as you keep the button pushed, dealing a rather small ammount of damage and heat, but the ammount of pulses you fire over a prolonged time gives it a good DPS.

The fact that you can fire it whenever you need it and don't waste heat if your enemy runs out of LOS and breaks contact counts as a high accuracy weapon for me, and if the damage/heat is balanced well it ends up as a very useful weapon.

[VYCanis]

well, the whole point of pulse lasers is that they are supposed to be "more accurate" that regular lasers, by virtue of their pulsing making them more efficient.

spreading their damage all over creation by making them weak high ROF weapons actually takes away from this.
Sure you are more likely to hit, but less likely to actually do anything meaningful with those hits, since you are likely to be spreading low damage all over a target.

To reflect improved "accuracy," pulse lasers should actually have shorter beam durations than standard or er lasers. They should still blink and strobe, but the damage should be concentrated into a shorter amount of time.

Let the standard and ER lasers be more likely to sweep a target and spread the damage around.

[Xhaleon]

VYCanis, on 02 November 2011 - 10:35 AM, said:

well, the whole point of pulse lasers is that they are supposed to be "more accurate" that regular lasers, by virtue of their pulsing making them more efficient.

The accuracy comes from the pulses letting the pilot bring the laser onto target while continuously firing.

Living Legends did it best. The MWLL mechanics seem to replicate the accuracy and visual effect the closest to what it should be.

You can take the spreading out of damage as a reflection of the rule that you cannot use a Targeting Computer to make called shots with a pulse laser, precisely because of the above reason, although you still dealt full damage to any part hit in a turn on the tabletop.

Making it work with reticle bloom would be problematic, however...

[Cora]

A pulse laser could be thought of as raising the energy input to a laser (overloading it) but for a very short time (pulse).
That means more damage potential per unit of time the laser lands on a hit location, this more accurate.
A traditional laser has some damage over time qualities because it does not pump the energy to the target as fast.

Edited by Cora, 02 November 2011 - 10:57 AM.

[Wyrm]

kasai-oni, on 01 November 2011 - 09:50 PM, said:

As far as I know, pulse lasers didn't reappear in the Inner Sphere until after the Clan Invasion started. But when they do I appear, I hope they're a continuous fire weapon, rather than their MW4 iteration where everything was a burst fire style. That and the flamers burst were the most irritating thing for me in MW4.

Pulses was invented by clans, and before invasion wasnt knowed by IS at all.
Speaking of classic BT yes, in board game it was "absolute" weapon, best mechs was counted on amount pulses they've had.
Speaking of simulator though, in MW3 pulses was probably worst example of weapon, as ability to putt all you damage instantly at the point you aiming, was much more important rather then doing 1/2 damage of your pulse laser all other the mech you targeting.

What was the most awsome mech in MW3? Thats right, Blackhawk Prime. With his 12 EM medium Lasers he was able to rip off the leg almost instantly out of any heavy mechs, and assault mech was able to stand against Blackhwak just a few second longer.

So speaking of pulse lasers in sim, they actualy should do even more damage then standard lasers, but only if you able to keep the pulsing beem on the target. So then it will be somewhat more preferable weapon against slow huge assault mechs, but almost useless against light and med mechs.

[Amarus Cameron]

frantic pryde, on 02 November 2011 - 10:09 AM, said:

Two days actually and yes, clearly I am...pulse lasers where fun in mw2. I feel like they got the rapid fire right but they heated up WAY to much.

Pulse Lasers are supposed to generate a lot of heat to keep you from having that firing stud always depressed.

[Applejack]

Argh! You silly bunnies. The IS recovered the ability to make ER Large Lasers, (all) Pulse Lasers, ER PPCs, LBX10, UAC5, XL Engines, Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous (as well as other advanced technologies) very shortly before the Clans invaded, starting at about 3035. This was due in part to Clan Wolf-In-Exile, fulfilling its goal as a Warden clan by reinforcing the technological base and political stability of the Inner Sphere's major powers so they could more effectively fight the Crusader Clans. Helm Memory Core, I feel stupid for not remembering it. They weren't all that common, and they were expensive, but they were available.

Edited by Applejack, 02 November 2011 - 11:29 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Easy. Make pulse weapons have a smaller base accuracy circle (The aim circle you see in FPS games) They get a pulse style animation rather than a beam, but behave the same otherwise. You'll get the accuracy increase and can control the damage and location more easily.

[Wyrm]

Applejack, on 02 November 2011 - 11:01 AM, said:

Argh! You silly bunnies. The IS recovered the ability to make ER Large Lasers, (all) Pulse Lasers, ER PPCs, LBX10, UAC5, XL Engines, Endo-Steel and Ferro-Fibrous (as well as other advanced technologies) very shortly before the Clans invaded, starting at about 3035. This was due in part to Clan Wolf-In-Exile, fulfilling its goal as a Warden clan by reinforcing the technological base and political stability of the Inner Sphere's major powers so they could more effectively fight the Crusader Clans. They weren't all that common, and they were expensive, but they were available.

The invasion was start in 3051, and Wolf exile happens in 3057.
The only one in IS who had access to clan tech was Wolf Dragoons, and they wasnt share that technology with anyone, even though betray clans.

[VYCanis]

TheRulesLawyer, on 02 November 2011 - 11:01 AM, said:

Easy. Make pulse weapons have a smaller base accuracy circle (The aim circle you see in FPS games) They get a pulse style animation rather than a beam, but behave the same otherwise. You'll get the accuracy increase and can control the damage and location more easily.

i don't really like the idea of lasers having a cone of fire. just makes it seem like someone mounted the weapon with bungee cords instead of bolts. Lasers should be laser accurate. Getting them lined up properly and keeping them on target should be the hard part. If i fire a laser 3 times in a row, and i haven't moved, i want that laser to go to the same place, its the expectation of using a laser, wiff factor of the tabletop not withstanding.

[TheRulesLawyer]

VYCanis, on 02 November 2011 - 11:12 AM, said:

i don't really like the idea of lasers having a cone of fire. just makes it seem like someone mounted the weapon with bungee cords instead of bolts. Lasers should be laser accurate. Getting them lined up properly and keeping them on target should be the hard part. If i fire a laser 3 times in a row, and i haven't moved, i want that laser to go to the same place, its the expectation of using a laser, wiff factor of the tabletop not withstanding.

Pinpoint fire ruined online play for all previous editions of MW. Battletech isn't about targeting specific parts of a mech, its about shooting center of mass and having random hit distribution. There is no way to have pinpoint fire without leading to abuse. Circle of first means no easy head shots and makes aiming for legs much less profitable.

[Wyrm]

TheRulesLawyer, on 02 November 2011 - 11:18 AM, said:

Pinpoint fire ruined online play for all previous editions of MW. Battletech isn't about targeting specific parts of a mech, its about shooting center of mass and having random hit distribution. There is no way to have pinpoint fire without leading to abuse. Circle of first means no easy head shots and makes aiming for legs much less profitable.

Only if you using gamepad :trollface:

Edited by Wyrm, 02 November 2011 - 11:19 AM.