24 replies to this topic

[IxxxI]

After viewing the trailer once again (cheers to Piranha Games!), I've noticed, that pilot wears something different from briefs, boots and cooling vest.



I guess that it could be a damn rare SLDF's coolant suit or cooling jumpsuit - a very nice thing at BT's 3049 to spend you money for (maybe even some real cash in 2012). From the other side, it could be just a regular jumpsuit, due to low temperatures on the planet Eaglesham, for example. Worth to mention, that while looking at 'Mechs cockpit from the first person view, such a suit hides the hairy sweaty extremities of a pilot and even the pilot's gender as well - that could equally be the reasoning for that suit in the movie.

[Nerts]

IxxxI, on 29 February 2012 - 03:17 PM, said:

Worth to mention, that while looking at 'Mechs cockpit from the first person view, such a suit hides the hairy sweaty extremities of a pilot and even the pilot's gender as well - that could equally be the reasoning for that suit in the movie.

I hope it isn't like that in game, I want to play dress up with my pilot as well as my mech.

[Alaric Wolf Kerensky]

Hmm will be interesting to see if they allow you to pick pilot gender and any appearances. Kind of odd that they opted not to go with a traditional cooling vest.

[Damion Wolf]

I see a hoola girl.

[Anthill]

Alaric Wolf Kerensky, on 29 February 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Hmm will be interesting to see if they allow you to pick pilot gender and any appearances. Kind of odd that they opted not to go with a traditional cooling vest.

Perhaps the reasoning being that a cooling vest would be the only thing that Mechwarrior would be wearing, planetary conditions aside.

[Ian MacLeary]

Anthill, on 29 February 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Perhaps the reasoning being that a cooling vest would be the only thing that Mechwarrior would be wearing, planetary conditions aside.

Honestly, if it gets hot enough to need a cooling vest... I want full body covering. Metal heats up faster than air and I don't want any exposed skin getting burned. I'd rather be uncomfortable than covered in blisters.

[Tannhauser Gate]

It also means they don't have to render some default white male with hairy arms texture.

[Skylarr]

Before the Clan invasion 99% of Mechwarriors only wore shorts, mesh shirts and a coolant vent. It was reported that some of the poorer Mechwarriors used Ice packs.

The Star League Neurohelmet and Mechwarrior Combat Suits were RARE. Then at some time in the 3030s or 3040s House Hurita developt a mechwarrior combat suit, but, only DEST and the most elite units received them.

Pilots do not sit on metals seats.

[Listless Nomad]

Yeah I think its more the "everyman approach." With a full body suit - you cant tell if you are a boy or a girl, white or black or anything. Everyone can relate to their character and identify with it. It's harder to relate to a character, or to identify with them when they are specified as an ethnicity or gender.

It was one of the stated reasons why the HALO games refused to show the Master Chief's face - they wanted all gamers (admittedly guys) to be able to envision themselves as the chief.

Of course this all goes out the window if they let you mold your character etc.

Edited by Listless Nomad, 29 February 2012 - 06:08 PM.

[Ian MacLeary]

Skylarr, on 29 February 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Before the Clan invasion 99% of Mechwarriors only wore shorts, mesh shirts and a coolant vent. It was reported that some of the poorer Mechwarriors used Ice packs.

The Star League Neurohelmet and Mechwarrior Combat Suits were RARE. Then at some time in the 3030s or 3040s House Hurita developt a mechwarrior combat suit, but, only DEST and the most elite units received them.

Pilots do not sit on metals seats.

So you're telling me that all of the surfaces inside a 'mech cockpit, where the temperature gets so oppressive that wearing a breathable heavy fabric like denim would make you pass out, are not made of metal? Every single surface is covered with something which is impervious to heat, thus rendering it safe to touch with bare skin?

IF SO, why didn't they just make pilot suits out of this miracle material?

IF NOT, then I reiterate: I'd rather wear full-body covering and be somewhat uncomfortable than risk first- and second-degree burns from the overheated metal in the cockpit. You're far less likely to pass out from 'heat exhaustion' (especially if you take precautions, like, oh, having a water-bottle with you) than you are to cause yourself multiple severe burns.

The 'shorts and cooling vest' camp is a result of poorly thought-out background material, and doesn't match the reality of thermodynamics.

[Listless Nomad]

Ian MacLeary, on 29 February 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

So you're telling me that all of the surfaces inside a 'mech cockpit, where the temperature gets so oppressive that wearing a breathable heavy fabric like denim would make you pass out, are not made of metal? Every single surface is covered with something which is impervious to heat, thus rendering it safe to touch with bare skin?

IF SO, why didn't they just make pilot suits out of this miracle material?

IF NOT, then I reiterate: I'd rather wear full-body covering and be somewhat uncomfortable than risk first- and second-degree burns from the overheated metal in the cockpit. You're far less likely to pass out from 'heat exhaustion' (especially if you take precautions, like, oh, having a water-bottle with you) than you are to cause yourself multiple severe burns.

The 'shorts and cooling vest' camp is a result of poorly thought-out background material, and doesn't match the reality of thermodynamics.

Your argument makes sense. However, it boils down to Canon or not. You want a full body suit. They didn't really exist in any great numbers in the time period of this game. Therefore, despite being less desirable - people want what was canon. I'm sure we'd all love ER lasers and XL engines but they don't make sense for this time period yet. The cooling suit argument is essentially the same argument.

You may disagree, but its less thermodynamics and more whether to go with the canon or not. Not much in this universe matches with reality. Thats half the fun.

Edited by Listless Nomad, 29 February 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[Maris]

Ian MacLeary, on 29 February 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

Honestly, if it gets hot enough to need a cooling vest... I want full body covering. Metal heats up faster than air and I don't want any exposed skin getting burned. I'd rather be uncomfortable than covered in blisters.

This, actually. If you are working in an environment where it gets THAT hot(like working beside a fusion reactor), you need to be covered up or have your skin singed or melted off ur skin. That's one thing that bugs me about mechwarriors coz its silly

Plus the mechwarrior images in their shorts and vests look kidna dorky too hehe. There is a reason why folks living in harsh burning deserts covered up themselves under thick layers of clothing, or factories...or firefighters. To protect from heat, you actually need to wear clothing, not undress. We are talking extreme heat btw, not the one you experience on a sunny day at the beach.

[Ian MacLeary]

Listless Nomad, on 29 February 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

Your argument makes sense. However, it boils down to Canon or not. You want a full body suit. They didn't really exist in any great numbers in the time period of this game. Therefore, despite being less desirable - people want what was canon. I'm sure we'd all love ER lasers and XL engines but they don't make sense for this time period yet. The cooling suit argument is essentially the same argument.

Er, actually... ER Large Lasers and XL engines *are* canon for the IS in this time period. We're 21 years past the recovery of the Helm Memory Core. Star League technology is making a comeback. Quite a few IS designs now have variants with XL engines to free up weight for more weaponry or armor or equipment. We even have FF armour and EndoSteel internal structures available.

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You may disagree, but its less thermodynamics and more whether to go with the canon or not. Not much in this universe matches with reality. Thats half the fun.

I don't have a problem when physics meets the Rule of Cool and loses. The sheer existence of BattleMechs in this universe proves that. Shorts and cooling vests, however, do not meet the Rule of Cool in my opinion.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Then again, 'Mechs are not even meant to be operative in extremely high temperatures and they'll just shut down if the reactor is pushed to capacity - so, theoretically, the pilot in shorts wouldn't get burned; not most of the time.

[Listless Nomad]

Ian MacLeary, on 29 February 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

Er, actually... ER Large Lasers and XL engines *are* canon for the IS in this time period. We're 21 years past the recovery of the Helm Memory Core. Star League technology is making a comeback. Quite a few IS designs now have variants with XL engines to free up weight for more weaponry or armor or equipment. We even have FF armour and EndoSteel internal structures available.

Right - but they are not widespread. The technologies were mostly limited to elite units, or specific houses and wouldn't be considered widespread or common. Perhaps XL was a bad example but you got what I was driving at.

As for the shorts and vest thing - I don't really have an opinion. I noticed right off the bat when you saw their arm with a full sleeve on - but I didn't care either way. My only possible counter argument would be that it doesn't actually get that hot in the cockpit. My guess would be 120 degrees F tops. I could be wrong - and am fully willing to concede the point. However, there are heatsinks and coolant and distance and all kinds of things between them and the reactor. I can't imagine it getting up to 400 degrees in these places. You could definitely do ok in 120 degrees for a short amount of time in shorts and a cooling vest. Remember that it only gets really hot when redlining the engine, before it shuts down. We don't know what the redline designates. It could be there to dictate survivability for the pilot. You never hear about different engines having different redline temps - or allowing you to go hotter. I don't think its an engine specs issue as much as it is an electronics and personnel issue. Remember all the electronics have to survive and not melt either - so they cant let the cockpit turn into an oven.

Anyways - that was way too long and just some food for thought. Glad to see somepeople still abide by a rule of cool and dont just go to one extreme or the other.

[Ranger207]

Listless Nomad, on 29 February 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

Anyways - that was way too long and just some food for thought.

Yeah, stop killing catgirls!
(For those of you who don't know, every time you bring physics into BattleTech, you start killing catgirls.)

Edited by Ranger207, 29 February 2012 - 06:36 PM.

[tacobellkiller]

I think that using full-body suits is a very understandable deviance from canon, in fact I am extremely happy that they are willing to deviate from canon at times(don't crucify me, I still want strong canon adherence but don't forget this is a reboot of the franchise). The old shorts and vest mech warrior never really struck me as particularly cool even though I understand the history of it. The old look might be a bit off putting for the many new fans of Mechwarrior that they are hoping to create with this title, the full suit is a much more modern look. Hopefully pilot customization will be in and any of the old guard who want the classic look will have it available to them.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Ian MacLeary, on 29 February 2012 - 06:04 PM, said:

So you're telling me that all of the surfaces inside a 'mech cockpit, where the temperature gets so oppressive that wearing a breathable heavy fabric like denim would make you pass out, are not made of metal? Every single surface is covered with something which is impervious to heat, thus rendering it safe to touch with bare skin?

IF SO, why didn't they just make pilot suits out of this miracle material?

IF NOT, then I reiterate: I'd rather wear full-body covering and be somewhat uncomfortable than risk first- and second-degree burns from the overheated metal in the cockpit. You're far less likely to pass out from 'heat exhaustion' (especially if you take precautions, like, oh, having a water-bottle with you) than you are to cause yourself multiple severe burns.

The 'shorts and cooling vest' camp is a result of poorly thought-out background material, and doesn't match the reality of thermodynamics.

Your argument does not make sense. It is entirely possible all surfaces inside the cockpit are covered in a rubber material. No, it does not make sense to wear a suit of rubber instead. Your body employs evaporative cooling, and the last time I wore a full-body rubber suit, sweat did not evaporate off my skin well at all.

I find it unlikely that you did not consider this, given the well thought out nature of your post. I can only speculate therefore that you are attempting to field erroneous arguments to further your "full suits are cooler" argument.

Stop. You're thinking "I can just reply with 'but what if the suit itself was cooled...' and he will be confounded!" No. You know as well as I do that it does not matter if the extremeties are allowed the same degree of conduction cooling as a vest, and that the limbs are best served to be open to air for evaporative cooling when compared to being covered in rubber. What you could say is that it would be better to be covered in some sort of material that would help negate the heat index effects of a very hot cockpit, but this would not stop discomfort from touching hot metal.

Lorcan Lladd, on 29 February 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Then again, 'Mechs are not even meant to be operative in extremely high temperatures and they'll just shut down if the reactor is pushed to capacity - so, theoretically, the pilot in shorts wouldn't get burned; not most of the time.

Mechs only gain 1 heat if above 50 degrees ​Celsius, and only at a rate of 1 heat per 10 degrees over. I'll do the math for you: 123f to gain 1 heat point. Assuming a 'Mech with single heat sinks and only equipped with the base 10 heat sinks, you need to reach 266f and run to max your heat load.

So if we go up another 10 degrees, THEN you will start overheating, and with running every turn, it'll take over 2 minutes to even have a remote chance of overheating. If we look at the temperature required to absolutely shut down, you're looking at 8.3 minutes until shutdown.

Keep in mind that in both hypothetical situations, the outcome can be easily reversed by walking instead of running.

Edited by Thomas Hogarth, 29 February 2012 - 09:38 PM.

[Ian MacLeary]

Thomas Hogarth, on 29 February 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

Your argument does not make sense. It is entirely possible all surfaces inside the cockpit are covered in a rubber material. No, it does not make sense to wear a suit of rubber instead. Your body employs evaporative cooling, and the last time I wore a full-body rubber suit, sweat did not evaporate off my skin well at all.

No, I'm sorry. Rubber is a volatile material. In situations of continued high-heat, the volatile material will bake out, turning the rubber brittle and causing it to crack and flake. At best, this leads to large chunks of material falling off - at worse, it leads to large quantities of powdery residue flying about the cockpit at inopportune moments. And given the age of many BattleMechs, the material would have long since worn away or been removed for ease of maintenance.

Now - it is entirely possible to create a rubberized suit with an underlayer that will wick away moisture. However, that's getting into the area of a full-body cooling suit, which is definitely not canon.

Oh, and to paraphrase: Stop. You're thinking, "But I can just say I meant plastic and he'll be confounded!" Plastics which can sustain high-temperatures without becoming frangible do exist, true. However, they conduct heat nearly as well as metal does, which means they only take a slightly longer time to reach the same temperatures.

Quote

I find it unlikely that you did not consider this, given the well thought out nature of your post. I can only speculate therefore that you are attempting to field erroneous arguments to further your "full suits are cooler" argument.

No, I simply didn't consider a rubberized material to be an acceptable answer, for the reason I gave above. And to attribute that sort of intellectual dishonesty to someone is tantamount to ad hominem... but I'll let it pass this time, since I've never talked to you before.

Quote

Stop. You're thinking "I can just reply with 'but what if the suit itself was cooled...' and he will be confounded!" No. You know as well as I do that it does not matter if the extremeties are allowed the same degree of conduction cooling as a vest, and that the limbs are best served to be open to air for evaporative cooling when compared to being covered in rubber. What you could say is that it would be better to be covered in some sort of material that would help negate the heat index effects of a very hot cockpit, but this would not stop discomfort from touching hot metal.

As I've said repeatedly in this thread, I'd rather be uncomfortable than have first- or second-degree burns. I can pilot if my hands are warm; I can't grip a joystick very well if my hands are covered in blisters.

[guardiandashi]

the "cannonical" reason for the lack of cooling suits is 2 fold

1 the vests are able to be manufactured using larger diameter and less flexable tubing that needed for the suits. to go along with this at the time the game was origionally written up, there also was no gortex, thinsulate and equivalant materials.

additionally the cockpits internal effective temperature during a bad heat spike is likely to never go over ~200-300 f, and does not typically stay there long enough for the structure to get hot enough to burn skin. (as most of the heat is through hot air in the cockpit not hot structure)

the mech on the other hand may spend long minutes or even hours spiking up and down the heat scale, leading to heat stroke, and /or heat exhaustation. regardless of how much beverages are available to the pilot.

oh and the game developer reason for the shorts and vests? what guy does not want to look at girls wearing swimsuits, or girls looking at guys doing the same remember this was the 80's and developers that were likely in their early to mid 20's and targeting teen agers and young adults. (the boxed set has always been for 13+ )