53 replies to this topic

[BTone]

So Clan tech won't be available for a little while. All right, but when it does appear how will it be handled as far as pricing and availability? I'm pretty sure that even after the Clan invasion, Clan tech was widely unavailable. Now I'm sure many people remember MW4 in which you always had an inordinate amount of both Inner Sphere AND Clan tech available. This model seems obviously flawed for MWO. Be honest, whenever you visited the Free Market for weapons, when did you buy Inner Sphere weapons? Clan tech is more expensive, but not nearly enough to deter myself from buying it. (In MW4 of course.) Besides, the tonnage/damage ratio is superb to Inner Sphere alternates and is really just "better." So this would be pretty biased in MWO. People would just outfit their mechs with Clan tech and Inner Sphere technology would almost be phased out. (Especially with the introduction of Omnimechs.) I would have to say making Clan tech SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive and maybe adding a daily limit of Clan tech available would be a cool way of handling Clan tech. Right after the Clan invasion, the technology would be very rare and expensive and then as the timeline progresses, the Clan tech would get more available and affordable. Others' thoughts?

[Papertarget]

In MW4, the IS Large Laser was the king of the weapons. You could put 6 into a Clan Mech and take down just about anything quick, while maintaining a decent hold on your heat.

In the BT Universe, the biggest advantage that the Clans had was not weapons. It was the Double Heatsinks. They could mount larger amounts of weapons without taxing their heat as much as the standard IS Mech. When I played the earlier games, I would choose Clan Tech specifically because they could use the Double Heatsinks. They aren't tougher, nor do they have any real advantage other then that. (And the ability to use universal weapons hard-points, but that was less of a consideration by far.)

I do agree that Clan Tech shouldn't be readily available. I had the thought of only having Clan Chassis available to people that have defeated or destroyed that type of Mech, plus having the repairs be much greater then a standard chassis, but the cost thing would make it more of a wallet warriors purview then. Maybe making it so that there is a very limited number of repair parts, or that there is a time limit for repairs before it can go out to fight again, making it so that IS mechs are still used predominantly. I don't know, but I am fairly sure that the Devs have put a lot of thought into the whole "clans" problem. After all. They were the ones that set the time for the beginning of the clan invasion of the IS. So I will trust them to make it right.

[BTone]

Yes, I would have to say I trust the devs to well, do their jobs. On topic of Clan tech, isnt it also lighter?

[Jakob Knight]

Clan tech normally was slightly lighter and took up less critical space than the Inner Sphere equivilants. Significantly, their structural tech was considerably beyond the capabilities of the IS, with their EndoSteel and Ferrofibrous Armor requiring half what IS versions do. In addition, their XL engines required only two additional slots in each torso, and CASE was included free of cost, which meant a much higher survivability rate for their mechs over IS versions of the same mech. While the mechs themselves took damage just like an IS mech, they didn't suffer the same effects (loss of a torso in a mech with an XL engine was an inconvienience to a Clan mech, and fatal to an IS mech).

Their weapons generated about the same heat, but again took up less space and weighed less. More importantly, their beam weaponry did more damage (with their ERPPCs hitting as hard as a Gauss Rifle), and their use of Targetting Computers meant they didn't miss as much.

All in all, Clan technology outclassed IS technology in almost every way. The only exceptions were in availability (probably not an issue in MWO due to the universal availability concept), cost to maintain, and in unique IS technologies such as C3 systems and Triple Strength Myomers.

Of course, many people are assuming they will get to pilot Clan mechs instead of them being a strictly NPC fighting force run for special events. We don't know if, when, or how they will appear. One thing is certain, however. If they become available, all IS battlemechs (including the Founders mechs) will be rendered redundant and detrimental to a force in the game ("You took up one of our combat slots with an IS mech?? You cost us the battle, you noob!!"). Hopefully, the devs know this and will keep Clan mechs and tech out of the game.

[BTone]

I don't think taking them out of the game is a good idea. It would seem providing them at limited availability is a better solution. Maybe infinite availability for IS weapons and limited availability of Clan tech?

[Seabear]

Two factors limit the use of clan tech in the BT universe, and I hopr the same restrictions will apply here. First, clan tech was by it's nature limited in availability. Even some second line clan units had limited access to it. Second, the nature of the clans and their style of fighting and determining the composition of combat forces (ie. using the smallest force posssible) made them less effective than they could be. WHOEVER gets to use clan technology, I hope they are bound by the clan restrictions in the lore.

[MechWarrior59288]

Seabear, on 04 July 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Two factors limit the use of clan tech in the BT universe, and I hopr the same restrictions will apply here. First, clan tech was by it's nature limited in availability. Even some second line clan units had limited access to it. Second, the nature of the clans and their style of fighting and determining the composition of combat forces (ie. using the smallest force posssible) made them less effective than they could be. WHOEVER gets to use clan technology, I hope they are bound by the clan restrictions in the lore.

This would be an interesting concept to implement. If an entire team consists of only Clan mechs perhaps they can only field, say, 8 mechs to a team consisting entirely of IS mechs that would be able to field 10-12.

[Jakob Knight]

Magnolia1038, on 04 July 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

This would be an interesting concept to implement. If an entire team consists of only Clan mechs perhaps they can only field, say, 8 mechs to a team consisting entirely of IS mechs that would be able to field 10-12.

The problem then is that you are blocking potential players from a battle based on their mechs (which doesn't seem to be in the game), and also the problem that, if it is limited availability, then you will almost always have one or two on the Clan side with IS mechs, negating the balance requirement.

Let's face it. Anyone who gets Clan tech is going to fight like an Inner Sphere pilot, because players are not Clansmen...they are people who believe in fighting any way they can, and without any restrictions other than that of the game itself. To them, Clantech isn't a heritage or a mark that you are bound to fight differently...it's just a better rifle to use on the battlefield and dominate your enemies. Unless Clan mechs are only available in matches enforced by having Devs riding shotgun on every single pilot to ensure compliance with Clan ROE, you can probably forget any sort of limitations on pilot conduct balacing out the incredible difference in firepower.

As I said, once Clantech hits, the effect will be the same as when 3050 tech becomes available (the effect of introducing 3050 tech is that all 3025 mechs will either be overhauled up to 3050 standards or become second-line units that other players will look at as penalty mechs for their side). There is no way to stop this from happening except to either make all Clantech single-use (ensuring that the player can't use them to dominate more than one battle), or to keep them out of the hands of players altogether. On the other hand, the likely game model is probably going to be to make the Clan mechs cost real world money (on the order of 20-50 dollars a mech) in order to both generate more income for the company and to blackmail players to either cough up the cash or accept that they are going to be fighting in a battlefield slanted against them by those who will pay $150 USD for that Daishi.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 04 July 2012 - 02:32 PM.

[Synisterwraith]

Magnolia1038, on 04 July 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

This would be an interesting concept to implement. If an entire team consists of only Clan mechs perhaps they can only field, say, 8 mechs to a team consisting entirely of IS mechs that would be able to field 10-12.

I think you should just have special matches for clan mechs and Magnolia is on the right track imo. Clans Mechs run in stars which consist of 5 mechs, the IS in Lances which consist of 4 Mechs. So when piloting a Clan mech you are restricted to certain battlefields that offset the superior clan technology with numbers on the IS side. So a Clan Star(5mechs) goes against 2 Lances(8 Mechs) that are IS and of course you could bump it up to a Binary(2 stars) vs a Company(3 Lances) so on and so forth. Of course Trial battles amongst Clanners wouldnt require this restriction. This way everyone can have access to whatever mech they want but they are still limited on the battlefield.

[BTone]

I'm about 99% sure the devs will never force players to pay real world money to buy any weapons or mech chassis based on that they have made it clear that real money will not buy people EXCLUSIVE weapons. So in other words, there is a C-bill equivalent to every real world price.

The off-balance battle idea between Clanners and Inner Sphere'ers seems well... Off balance. No matter how great the weapon systems on a mech, a better pilot will always emerge victorious. A team comprised of only Clan tech is great IF pilot skill is equal. However, this cannot be the case as individual skill differs. I do believe that the limited availbility of Clan tech is the only way to balance it effectively.

Another idea is that maybe Clan tech can be won in special Solaris arena type battles. Only the top 3 of the 16 combatants would win some tech. I think this would make it so it takes some real work to win this rare equipment and gives a better incentive to win then by just scoring points.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Let's look at some facts here, the game is a 12 on 12 matchup from what we've been told so far. If PGI has an intent to stick to canon then 2 stars of 10 clan mechs will be fighting 3 lances of 12 IS mechs.

That first fact may pose a problem for people who don't understand the BT universe. Why is it unbalanced gameplay wise is going to be their first question. But in my opinion if they just picked an icon from the clans they thought was cool then ignored the history then that's on them.

From what knowlege I have of BT canon, the clans didn't work with mercs at all. It was an honor thing. So filling up a 12 vs. 12 matchup isn't going to happen.

Clan tech is hard to come by consistantly, so either you're going to have to pay out some serious c-bills earned to bring your Omnimech back to it's original specs or your going to have to create a lesser mech based on what you can afford.

That to me makes very good sense, you've chosen a kick butt Omni mech. But once you've gone a few rounds in it you're having to substitute the ER PPC it came with for a A/C 5 you can afford to replace it because you got sloppy in combat.

My speculation is once the clans invade the dev's may start a salvage program for the clan side. They can recover parts they lost for their mech in battle, but still have to pay a high cost to repair it.

My last point of discussion is Zeilbrigen(SP?) All clan mechs when they arrive are honorbound to stick to 1 vs. 1 combat in field. I understand there are some loopholes but if a clan player is stuck to only targeting one mech at a time then there's another limitation to everyone going clan when the time comes. Some 100 ton Omni mech pilot is going to get pissed when he's got 2 Jenners an a Hunchie eating away at his armor and he is locked onto one Jenner from that group who is running circles around him.

But all this is a year away at least. I know people are wanting their Dire Wolf or Vulture or whatever clan mech they want. But until then all we can do is wait for time to pass and more information to come our way.

[Myc]

I personally didn't find the Clan vs IS tech that unbalanced in MW4. I played a lot online. Clan tech was certainly more popular, especially ballistic weapons. It did not ensure victory however. I think they can both be made to be useful. If this is offensive to the purists, then I say so be it. If every video game made from a movie was exactly like the movie, it wouldn't necessarily make a good game. The same could be said for game to movie ports. The game has to be fun first. We all play games for fun.

[Butane9000]

I greatly anticipate the coming of clan tech. As they have always been some of my favorite mechs.

[BTone]

Now I know that the game should follow canon, but it is a GAME. Gameplay should be the main focus here. I like the idea of compromising loadouts. It should definitely be hard to mantain and all Clan mech. But as far as a 10 v 12 battle? Okay, I know the canon, but I'm sorry, gameplay takes precedence here. It still depends on individual player skill, no matter how great the technology is. 3/12 good IS pilots could take out at least half of the 10 Clanners if they're inexperienced.

[Jakob Knight]

BTone, on 04 July 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

Now I know that the game should follow canon, but it is a GAME. Gameplay should be the main focus here. I like the idea of compromising loadouts. It should definitely be hard to mantain and all Clan mech. But as far as a 10 v 12 battle? Okay, I know the canon, but I'm sorry, gameplay takes precedence here. It still depends on individual player skill, no matter how great the technology is. 3/12 good IS pilots could take out at least half of the 10 Clanners if they're inexperienced.

Thing is, if Clantech is limited availability, and -especially- if it is given out as rewards to only the victors in arena matches, the Clan players will -not- be inexperienced. The fact they have a complete Clan mech will be proof of that, and that they are willing to do whatever it takes to win a battle (hack, cheat, dirty tricks, or just plain good fighting skill). It will be the IS side that will have the inexperienced players, if anyone.

And, if Clantech is implemented as designed in the TT, 10 Clan mechs will decimate 12 IS mechs of equal tonnage. The lethality of Clan technology is much more unbalancing than that. Consider...a Clan mech can mount a larger selection of weapons due to lighter tonnage and fewer crits on their systems, more double heat sinks, and survive damage that would kill an IS mech (ammo explosion, XL engine torso destruction). In addition, they have more internal space due to their Endosteel and Ferrofibrous structures costing half what an IS mech has to pay.

To illustrate, let's put 12 Madcat Primes against their IS equivilant, the Rakshasa. The 12 Madcats begin the match by firing 24 LRM20s at the IS line, while the IS mechs return fire with 24 LRM10s. The Clans do twice the damage to the IS as they receive. As the range closes, the Madcats fire their ERLLs, which hit like PPCs. 24 ERLLs hit the IS mechs, which can't return fire because their own lasers don't have the range. Two Rakshasa suffer torso destruction and are kills. The lines close more. The IS mechs employ their own LLs, but only do 80% the damage of the Clan units. 24 Clan ERLLs meet 20 IS LLs. Two Clan mechs take side torso destructions or ammunition hits, but continue on as this does not kill them. Two more IS Mechs go down. It is now 12 vrs 8, and the range closes to where both sides can use their short-ranged weapons. Again, the Clan ERMLs and MPLs outrange and outdamage their IS counterparts, and half the battered IS force dies under the rain of fire. 4 Clan mechs go down, 2 of which are the damaged mechs from the previous seconds of fire exchange. It is now 8 vrs 4. At this point, the Clans elect to not close the distance further, and wipe out the IS survivors, losing perhaps one or two more of their numbers to damage. Final score: 6 Clan mechs down, 12 IS mechs down.

And that was not considering that the Clan pilots are going to be veterans, and the IS pilots are likely going to be a mix of veterans and green pilots just getting into the game. Nor that many fights are going to be one-on-one meetings in canyons or in terrain that restricts the number of 'mechs that can engage each other at a time.

So no. 10 vrs 12 battles are not unreasonable. If anything, the sides should be 8 vrs 12. Yes, Clantech is that deadly.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 July 2012 - 04:14 AM.

[MechWarrior59288]

The only other viable option I can see the devs implementing would be similar to what Eve has already done with tech 3 cruisers: if it gets destroyed you have to re-learn the skills (or in this case some other penalty). The downside, of course, would be players refusing to aid their team if it looks as if they will lose.

[627]

KuruptU4Fun, on 04 July 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

My last point of discussion is Zeilbrigen(SP?) All clan mechs when they arrive are honorbound to stick to 1 vs. 1 combat in field. I understand there are some loopholes but if a clan player is stuck to only targeting one mech at a time then there's another limitation to everyone going clan when the time comes. Some 100 ton Omni mech pilot is going to get pissed when he's got 2 Jenners an a Hunchie eating away at his armor and he is locked onto one Jenner from that group who is running circles around him.

The moment a second mech shoots the clanmech, the battle ist free for all and the clanner isn't bound to his primary target.
So when the daishi kicks the hunchie and one of the Jenners opens fire on him, all mechs are legal targets for everyone.

Edited by 627, 04 July 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[HiredGun]

I think the Clan ROE/honor system went out the window once they were attacked by more than one enemy.

[HiredGun]

Jakob Knight, on 04 July 2012 - 07:36 PM, said:

Thing is, if Clantech is limited availability, and -especially- if it is given out as rewards to only the victors in arena matches, the Clan players will -not- be inexperienced. The fact they have a complete Clan mech will be proof of that, and that they are willing to do whatever it takes to win a battle (hack, cheat, dirty tricks, or just plain good fighting skill). It will be the IS side that will have the inexperienced players, if anyone.

So you don't think it would be a little unfair to give the more experienced players better equipment than everyone else? So much for newb friendly.

Edited by HiredGun, 04 July 2012 - 11:16 PM.

[Dragoon Furey]

Heres a thought.
Have a random peice of clan tech show up in the market on random days at two to five times the standard cost for a clanner.

"ISN: Newsflash - Blackmarkets flooded with clan Streak SRM launchers today following several succesful raids on Jade Falcon controlled planets by the Federated Commonwealth and several mercenary companies"

Clan Omni-Mechs should be really rare tho, perhaps they could stage major cannon battles that players can participate in and win clan omnis from if the IS is successful, like Coventry, Wolcot, Luthien, ect.. or even solaris VII tournements where players can get a crack at winning a top notch IS chassis or at later dates in the time-line a clan omni.