22 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

Okay…

As I understand canon, all Mechs are powered by a fusion engine. These engines are rated in regards to power, weight etc. These fusion engines power all the Mechs functions, systems and sub-systems, to include the myomers, actuators, energy weapons and jump-jets.

To continue my thought process, I believe it safe to assume the different engine ratings should correspond with potential power output. With this I also think it safe to assume these engines operate at levels commensurate with the requite need for said power… i.e. a Mech standing in one place doing little if anything but looking pretty’s power needs would not be at maximum load, thus the fusion engine would effectively be at “idle”.

This same Mech moving at a full trot (If you can picture a Mech trotting) and firing all it’s energy weapons would then potentially be placing maximum load on the engine and as such the engine would be operating at max capacity. Same theoretically should apply to use of jump-jets...

(Whew!)…

Working off of all these grand assumptions…

1.) Should it take longer to recharge energy weapons at full trot versus moving slowly and or at a stand-still?
2.) Equally, if a Mech equipped with jump-jets use said jump-jets, again recharge should also take longer to recharge?

I pose these questions in regards to governing battle tactics as they pertain to energy management during battle as well as potential Mechlab modifications in regards to engines…

My experience online as will in my single-player games with the various MW iterations is that players (myself included) tended to play the game at full throttle… Rarely reducing speed for engagements and changing direction (In this we typically went full speed in reverse as well..).

a.) I think modeling engine load and subsequent management of your fusion engines power would be a great detail that would add depth to engagement tactics as it forces a pilot to take into consideration weapon recharge time relative to speed… Which would indirectly reduce the propensity of all battle to be at a full sprint.

b.) This also gives way to more in-depth Mech configuration management as availability of lighter more powerful engines might be a logical module to update when available as a purchase and or a XP grind-thing…

Just throwing ideas out there that might be cool / easy implementations that deepen MW:O so it can take on more of a “sim-feel” than an “arcade-feel”…

[Snotling]

There is already a powermanagement in the game: Heat.

In Battletech/Mechwarrior you generally assume the reactor can handle doing everything at once, but the more things you do at the same time (running, jumping, shooting), the more heat your reactor generates. If the temperature in your Mech heat rises above a certain point, it will shut down (or explode if you override the shutdown to long )

To prevent that you build in heat sinks. These tanke room and tonnage. So you have to think what you build in beforehand.

Problem is: In the games Walking/running/jumping generated next to no heat. So everybody was running around at top speed. If they change that, it would be an easy fix to make the game more sim-feely

Edited by Snotling, 04 April 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[Skylarr]

Fusion Engine

Edited by Skylarr, 04 April 2012 - 09:02 AM.

[DaZur]

Snotling, on 04 April 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

There is already a powermanagement in the game: Heat.

In Battletech/Mechwarrior you generally assume the reactor can handle doing everything at once, but the more things you do at the same time (running, jumping, shooting), the more heat your reactor generates. If the temperature in your Mech heat rises above a certain point, it will shut down (or explode if you override the shutdown to long )

To prevent that you build in heat sinks. These tanke room and tonnage. So you have to think what you build in beforehand

Agreed... I did completely gloss over the heat part of the equation.

That said, heat should/would be commensurate to the load being placed on the engine as a result of system usage and weapon usage. As dictated by canon, when a lasers capacitor discharges, the laser generates a heat spike that dissipates over a given time relative to the number and type of available heat sinks. So, following the above postulation, a Mech moving at full speed and firing it's energy weapons would generate more heat and subsequently dissipate it slower than if the Mech were moving at a slower speed and or at a stand-still.

It all kind'a goes hand-in-hand... engine load, heat and re-charge potential...

[MilitantMonk]

DaZur, on 04 April 2012 - 09:07 AM, said:

It all kind'a goes hand-in-hand... engine load, heat and re-charge potential...

It was noted in the novels that things like Gauss Rifles and Lasers tend to suck alot of power so they are staggered when group fired. If you want to alpha strike and are loaded for bear (2 Gauss and 2 Lg Lasers) it would cycle each cannon with a half second delay and then fire both the lasers together since the engine couldn't route that much power all at one.

[Kenyon Burguess]

im sure the devs will balance weapon ROF but prolly not based on the engine. otherwise if you took even a little bit of damage to the core you could find yourself completely weaponless due to power loss..

[Ranger207]

Regarding the OP,
1. No. There is something in engineering called "over-engineering." It's simply giving something more resources than it could need. In other words, a fusion can power everything at once, and still have enough power for your microwave. Maybe. Of course, charging Gauss rifles, firing lasers, acuating acuators, and firing jump jets take a lot of energy, so maybe you can only do some at a time.
2. According to TechManual, JJs use an electron beam to superheat a material (like, say, air) into plasma, then the rapid expansion from the heat pushes out the bottem of the jet. JJs do NOT vent plasma from the engine, unlike aerospace fighters. The only limiter on how far you jump is the fact that if your JJs fire for too long, they start to melt.

[DaZur]

Geist Null, on 04 April 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

im sure the devs will balance weapon ROF but prolly not based on the engine. otherwise if you took even a little bit of damage to the core you could find yourself completely weaponless due to power loss..

I guess that's kind'a where I was going to some degree... Managing battle damage theoretically is as much of battlefield tactics as managing heat, engine-load and ballistics ammo. You get too many heat-sinks damaged and or take take a critical to your engine in the coarse of an engagement, your going to suffer heat dissipation issues and or prolonged recharge rates.

This kind of micro-management leads to tactical engagements whee one has to weigh cause and repercussion...

In previous iterations of MW, one simply battled it out until such time one won the engagement or got destroyed. These engagements boiled down to games of attrition... Aside from heat, and weapons being destroyed, one pressed home the attack until one of the two results were obtained.

[MaddMaxx]

It was my impression that a Fusion Engine is an "on-demand" system and could provide as much power as demanded and the only draw back was the production of residual Heat.

As such, the Pilot could do whatever they wanted when they wanted, the power was always available but the Heat had to be allowed to dissipate or face some dire consequences otherwise, the main one being their own demise due to Heat.

[Slyck]

I don't think we need to see a power management game outside of heat management. But I think the heat scale is a fine place to put effects you might associate with an over worked fusion engine. Reduced movement speed is already there, I don't see a problem with putting in a penalty for RoF as well.

[DaZur]

MaddMaxx, on 04 April 2012 - 09:56 AM, said:

It was my impression that a Fusion Engine is an "on-demand" system and could provide as much power as demanded and the only draw back was the production of residual Heat.

As such, the Pilot could do whatever they wanted when they wanted, the power was always available but the Heat had to be allowed to dissipate or face some dire consequences otherwise, the main one being their own demise due to Heat.

I guess that a question to ask the brains... Does a fusion engine function in a all-or-nothing capacity and is only limited by it's power rating or does the available power ramp up to meet the load demand similar to the function of a governor on a combustion engine?

[osito]

The way i interpret the system working is the engine size/rating is based on speed/weight class of mech. Once the engine is in it can power the mech and any weapons system it has for a long time. The engine can provide an alpha strike all day long as fast as the capacitors can charge the next shot. The problem is the pilot can not survive that rate of fire for long. It's just like today's fighter jets. Most of them can go faster and survive brutal turns and the g's that go with it. The pilot can not.

[armitage]

I think it would be an interesting twist if we had the ability to push the mech beyond the engines nominal capabilities. Maybe if you're trying to escape a lumbering steiner scout lance while in your battered hunchback so you disable a safety mechanism and gain an extra 5 or 6kph at the expensive of excessive heat and the possibility of failure. Much like the way MASC works but on a much smaller scale. Or perhaps you could send a surge of power into the weapons systems and get that one last alpha of lasers with a couple % more damage, at the expense of an amost guaranteed shutdown. I think it could be cool as long risks is greater than the reward making it one of those do or die last ditch options.

[Fameth Sathronaveth]

All of this speculation is good and all... but I feel like we are missing a huge part of the picture.

If Fusion engines are literally eternal never-ending unlimited at any given instant energy sources... then why would bigger engines allow for greater speed?

The only thing I can think of is the difference in gyros, etc.. that would accompany that engine. Otherwise, the engines don't have limitless at a given instance power, and then the engine size difference/max speed makes sense.

Considering Heat, in MW4 speed did effect heat dissipation - it was much harder to shed heat generated from weapondry while moving fast. Also, the mech's "base" heat would move up porportional to the speed of the mech [and its overall heat dissipation]. In other words, if you are moving x km/hr, your heat might up plus y degrees, but accelerate to 2x and your heat marker might increase and then stay at 2y. [conceptually at least].

Concerning weapon regen time... there would be a difference between the capacitators [normal weapon recharge time] and the reactor supplying power that would have to be looked into. If the reactor only has z kilojoules of energy per second, and most of that is going to masc, speed, etc.. maybe weapon recharge time [not capacitator time] would be longer since energy from the reactor might have to accumilate to a level high enough for the weapon to fire.

Concerning below from above post... excessive micro management... big time.

[color=#CCCCCC]I think it would be an interesting twist if we had the ability to push the mech beyond the engines nominal capabilities. Maybe if you're trying to escape a lumbering steiner scout lance while in your battered hunchback so you disable a safety mechanism and gain an extra 5 or 6kph at the expensive of excessive heat and the possibility of failure. Much like the way MASC works but on a much smaller scale. Or perhaps you could send a surge of power into the weapons systems and get that one last alpha of lasers with a couple % more damage, at the expense of an amost guaranteed shutdown. I think it could be cool as long risks is greater than the reward making it one of those do or die last ditch options.[/color][color=#CCCCCC] [/color]

Edited by Fameth Sathronaveth, 04 April 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[CeeKay Boques]

I would love to see power rerouting, IE, route power from the legs to the weapons or vice versa for an added boost in either.

Dynamic, player controlled, tatical decisions. What's not to like? Very fluffy as well, pilots rerouted power to their actuators to get them going again in the novels all the time...

[DaZur]

Technoviking, on 04 April 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I would love to see power rerouting, IE, route power from the legs to the weapons or vice versa for an added boost in either.

Dynamic, player controlled, tatical decisions. What's not to like? Very fluffy as well, pilots rerouted power to their actuators to get them going again in the novels all the time...

This is interesting conceptually...

Reminds me of the original X-Wing / Tie-Fighter game. I fondly remember rerouting power from the lasers to the shields and vice-verse depending on whether I was attacking or running fro my life tactically withdrawing...

[armitage]

Fameth Sathronaveth, on 04 April 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

All of this speculation is good and all... but I feel like we are missing a huge part of the picture.

If Fusion engines are literally eternal never-ending unlimited at any given instant energy sources... then why would bigger engines allow for greater speed?

Well the logic of a fusion engine being eternal never-ending and unlimited is utterly flawed. Fusion reactors aren't going to be a one size fits all component. Likewise the actuators and per canon the myomer bundles will require different levels of amperage to move throughout their range of movement. As with any electrical component providing less amperage will result in sub par or complete lack of performance.

[Hawkeye 72]

osito, on 04 April 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:

The way i interpret the system working is the engine size/rating is based on speed/weight class of mech. Once the engine is in it can power the mech and any weapons system it has for a long time. The engine can provide an alpha strike all day long as fast as the capacitors can charge the next shot. The problem is the pilot can not survive that rate of fire for long. It's just like today's fighter jets. Most of them can go faster and survive brutal turns and the g's that go with it. The pilot can not.

Very true. Human limitations must always be considered. However running an alpha strike all day should have consequences. You can't run at maximum levels all day and expect everything to run okay. Systems will wear down eventually (same reason anything needs maintenance.)

Fameth Sathronaveth, on 04 April 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

All of this speculation is good and all... but I feel like we are missing a huge part of the picture.

If Fusion engines are literally eternal never-ending unlimited at any given instant energy sources... then why would bigger engines allow for greater speed?

The only thing I can think of is the difference in gyros, etc.. that would accompany that engine. Otherwise, the engines don't have limitless at a given instance power, and then the engine size difference/max speed makes sense.

The fusion reactor is not unlimited, and the gyro is more for balance.

Technoviking, on 04 April 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

I would love to see power rerouting, IE, route power from the legs to the weapons or vice versa for an added boost in either.

Dynamic, player controlled, tatical decisions. What's not to like? Very fluffy as well, pilots rerouted power to their actuators to get them going again in the novels all the time...

This is a mech sim, not a FPS. I definitely feel that the more technical/tactical decisions and functions a player must manage, the better (tho to a limit-diminishing returns and all). Point and shoot will get boring very fast.

[Causa Davion]

There was a flight sim that I loved, freespace and freespace 2, that had a power transfer system. Routing power to lasers would allow them to charge faster, but not do more damage, which makes sense. If you were pushing more output through the weaponry than it can handle, you would blow up your own lenses, or whatever internal components that are part of a laser cannon...fry the wiring or the circuitry itself.

But I would love the ability to slow or stop charging for energy weapons, making me reliant on ballistics or missiles, in order to increase available power...but wouldn't that be covered with the use of MASK?

You would overpower your actuators, kick your mech into overdrive, and that extra speed would already translate into increased cooling time for your heat sinks, etc....so what are we really gaining, here?

[William Petersen]

Skylarr, on 04 April 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Fusion Engine

I don't have time to read all of that, but relative to the first bit... I hope we won't see EVERY FREAKIN' MECH exploding in a ball of fire when they drop dead.

That REALLY bugged me in MW4 (I don't remember 3 well enough, and 2 wasn't a sophisticated enough game to include it).