41 replies to this topic

[Felbombling]

Come the 4th of April, when they announce the Mech Lab and give us details, lots of people are going to be excited beyond belief and lots of people are going to be disappointed beyond belief. THEN these message boards are going to get really interesting. It will then be like 80000+ seagulls fighting over a bag of french fries in the McDonald's parking lot.

Edited by StaggerCheck, 03 April 2012 - 08:58 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Good ideas OP. Not sure if having to wait for anything to be done will fly in these days of instant gratification. People used to MW4 will want their ability to instantly reconfigure their custom designs on the fly to suit the map. It's what they're used to and a number of people have been very vocifereous about it on these boards. The same people who condemn the TT game and say it "isn't relevant" to a PC game, then try and use the TT rules to their advantage on this point. hopefully some of our questions will be answered later on today.

[Pvt Dancer]

I am sorry, but I had to stop reading at 'Rare mechs'. At that point, I kind of had to throw away the thread because apparently you just haven't read any of the Dev blogs. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted that. Your an intelligent poster, I just wish you did alittle more research before posting.

They have stated several times that all mech chassies and gear will be avaible to free players. They have stressed there will be no way for someone to 'pay to win'.

[Nasty McBadman]

Pvt Dancer, on 04 April 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

I am sorry, but I had to stop reading at 'Rare mechs'. At that point, I kind of had to throw away the thread because apparently you just haven't read any of the Dev blogs. Otherwise you wouldn't have posted that. Your an intelligent poster, I just wish you did alittle more research before posting.

They have stated several times that all mech chassies and gear will be avaible to free players. They have stressed there will be no way for someone to 'pay to win'.

With all due respect Pvt Dancer...
Perhaps the "Rare" phrase was more apt than you are giving it credit. Not that they would be unavailable for free, just rare. The Devs have stated that all mechs will be accessable for all players for free but possibly some will be hard to get for free or may take a long time to get or require a good bit of luck for free players. I have "done my research" and I find no fault in the logic of the original post. Would you consider giving the original post another try in this light?

[Strum Wealh]

Also, the idea of "degrees of separation" for weapon hardpoints has been posted before.

Kartr, on 03 March 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

No changes in types, if it's a ballistic weapon you cannot replace it with an energy or missile weapon.

Only one degree of separation: you can swap a Medium Laser for a Small or Large Laser, but not an ER Large Laser or a PPC. Large Laser could be swapped for an ER Large or a Medium, but not a PPC. ER Large could be swapped for a PPC or a Large but not a Medium. Ballistics are similar, AC/5 can be swapped for an AC/2 or an AC/10 but not an AC/20 or an LB/10X. LB/10X can only be swapped for an AC/10 while an AC/10 can be swapped for an AC/20, LB/10X or AC/5. SRM6 can be swapped for an SRM4, LRM15 or LRM20, but not an SRM2 or LRM10 or LRM5. SRM4 can go to SRM2 or 6 or LRM 10 and 15, the others have a similar swapping system. Gausses can only be traded for AC/20s.

Each mod cost the price of the item being swapped in plus a fraction of the cost of the entire 'Mech, maybe 1/8th with the effect being cumulative. Make 8 changes and you've spent the cost of the 'Mech new plus the cost of the items new. Changes include everything that takes it away from stock or the original variant.

Each mod takes time in real time to complete, 6hrs and is cumulative for every change. Change 4 things on your 'Mech and it's unavailable for 24hrs real time. Decals and paint jobs would not take real time, nor would swapping modules. Armor changes would only cost the value of the armor plus half the normal change fee.

Each time you change your 'Mech you can use it as a new baseline for further modifications. If I started with an AC/5 but wanted to upgrade to an LB/10X I could change the AC/5 to an AC/10 then once the time for that modification was done I could change the new AC/10 for an LB/10X using the modification rules.

IMO, it (still) has issues as a logical and reasonable system in light of known variants.

• If a single Large Laser can be exchanged for a single Medium Laser, what logical reason is there for being unable to likewise directly exchange said Large Laser for a single Small Laser (half the weight, same volume, and same type as the Medium Laser)?
  
• If a single Large Laser can be exchanged for a single PPC, what logical reason is there for being unable to likewise directy exchange said Large Laser for a single ER-PPC (same weight, volume, and type as the standard PPC)?
  
• If a single LRM-10 can be exchanged for a LRM-5, LRM-15, or SRM-4 and a SRM-6 can be exchanged for a SRM-4, LRM-15, and LRM-20, why couldn't a LRM-10 be directly exchanged for a SRM-6 (where the latter is two tons lighter and identical in volume and type)? Or vice versa? And where does the Narc Missile Beacon launcher (identical in weight, volume, and type to the SRM-6) fit into this system? If SRM-6 to LRM-20 would be a possibility, why shouldn't LRM-10 to LRM-20 also be a possibility?
  
• If an AC-20 (14 tons, 10 criticals, ballistic) can be swapped for an AC-10 (12 tons, 7 criticals, ballistic), then why couldn't it be swapped for an LB-X AC-10 (11 tons, 6 criticals, ballistic)?

IMO, one would do just as well or better to set hardppoints by size and class (e.g. what MW4 did with its slots system) or by class and number of weapons (e.g. "only one energy/ballistic/missile weapon may be mounted in this hardpoint, but that single energy/ballistic/missile weapon may be of any type and weight so long as the BattleMech has sufficient free tonnage to carry it"), or even a hybrid of these.

Though, we should have definitive information on how it will be done in only a few hours...

Your thoughts?

[Black Sunder]

@ Sturm

You're ignoring tonnage values of lasers. A LL is 5 tons. Unless other sacrifices are made, you can not mount it in place of a medium laser. As for putting a small laser in there in place of a LL, perfectly doable.

[CCC Dober]

OP: Mechs need to be re-balanced from time to time given the addition of new content and either predominant or developing strategies to use them. That also includes rare Mechs and collides with customer interests. Either the customer is willing to accept these changes to a product he paid for or double standards will ruin this game for sure. If the pricing of said Mechs does not become excessive, the possible fallout of negative balance decisions can be kept on the low.

I wouldn't envy the dev to make tough calls like that on a regular basis tbph.

[Strum Wealh]

Black Sunder, on 04 April 2012 - 05:09 AM, said:

@ Sturm

You're ignoring tonnage values of lasers. A LL is 5 tons. Unless other sacrifices are made, you can not mount it in place of a medium laser. As for putting a small laser in there in place of a LL, perfectly doable.

1.) It is assumed that the tonnage is somehow freed to make the exchange - if that is not the case, then it is a moot point.

2.) Kartr's opening post in this thread specifically states, "Weapons would have degrees of separation for example a Large laser would be one degree from a Medium Laser, a PPC and an ER Large Laser. So if you had a Large Laser the only things you could change it for would be Medium Lasers, a PPC or a Large Laser (assuming you had the criticals and the tonnage for it)" and "Missiles would be similar, SRM6 being once removed from SRM4s, LRM-15s and LRM-20s. While LRM-10s would be once removed from LRM-5s, LRM-15s and SRM-4s".
(emphasis mine)

Additionally, his previous post on the same subject (linked and quoted above) states, "Large Laser could be swapped for an ER Large or a Medium, but not a PPC. ER Large could be swapped for a PPC or a Large but not a Medium."

An IS Large Laser and an IS ER Large Laser are (canonically) identical in terms of weight and size (5 tons, 2 criticals).
An IS Small Laser is (canonically) identical in terms of size to a Medium Laser (1 critical), and weight half as much (0.5 tons, vs 1.0 tons).

Under Kartr's proposed "degree of separation" system in its current form, it would be possible to directly exchange an ER Large Laser for a Medium Laser, but not possible to exchange an ER Large Laser for a Small Laser without first exchanging the ER Large Laser for a standard Large Laser.

Likewise, exchanging an LRM-10 (5 tons, 2 criticals) for an LRM-15 (7 tons, 3 criticals) would be allowed, and subsequently exchanging that same LRM-15 for an LRM-20 (10 tons, 5 criticals) would be allowed, but directly exchanging the LRM-10 for the LRM-20 would not be possible.
And, as currently written in this thread's OP, one could exchange the LRM-20 (10 tons, 5 criticals) for an SRM-6 (3 tons, 2 criticals), but could not exchange an LRM-10 (5 tons, 2 criticals) for the SRM-6 (3 tons, 2 criticals) without first exchanging the LRM-10 for an SRM-4 (2 tons, 1 critical).

That is not to say that the general gist of the idea is necessarily bad in any way, but the proposed implementation as currently written has some glaring and fairly critical flaws and that there are other methods that would, IMO, prove easier to implement and more logically straightforward...

[Vexgrave Lars]

We're bout to find out today..aren't we, I think?

[Sarriss]

I was sort of on board, until it would take 32 hours for me to make significant changes. I'm all for wanting to be close to the lore and wanting this to be a sim, but with all do respect, F*** No. I'm not going to spend x of C-bills to buy the equipment, x of C-bills to mount it just to have to wait x amount of hours to see if it was even worth it. Why don't they want people tweaking their mechs a lot? Every other mech game has been built around the premise of tweaking and adjusting your mech. Either for mission specs, filling out roles, personal preference, whatever, you want to make changes meaningful? You add cost, it's there or likely will be. You want to be a hardcore fan and demand everyone follows strict lore in the fact it takes 3 weeks to change mech parts, go build your own game. I'm not condemning all of your opinions or suggestions, some of them are fine, some could very well be in the game, but if you start demanding people wait 1 or 2 days before they can play their mech again, you are asking far to much of the community. The bottom line is this is a game, based on the MechWarrior/Battletech franchise, in the year 2012, expecting people to follow the lore to that degree is unrealistic and bad business. Yes, sadly we all want instant gratification, but I'm a guy who plays Silent Hunter with very little time elapse, it actually takes 2 weeks to finish basic patrol missions, I like that, I can play that way because it doesn't impede the rest of the community or players. YOU want to wait 2 days for the adjustments you just made to take effect, that's your prerogative, you can RP that way all day every day for all anyone cares, but don't expect the rest of the community to bend to the insane time frames of the lore.

I know that sounds harsh and I really don't mean to be disrespectful but you have to weigh all of these decisions on the hundreds of thousands of people who are likely going to play, not just the hardcore loremasters and TT players.

Edited by Sarriss, 04 April 2012 - 07:13 AM.

[WithSilentWings]

BerryChunks, on 03 April 2012 - 08:12 PM, said:

Not really. if rare = more power, everyone will buy it.Lets say they sell mad cats. Everyone will buy a madcat, because its easy to shell out money to get it for no effort.

Thus everyone is fighting in mad cats.

I'd rather pay a monthly fee, or pay a box fee of 60-70$, FOR REAL, than have RMTs give people access to better mechs or weapons.

RMTs work for leveraging money out of poorer people who cant afford box game lifestyles, and supporting the whole by giving people unfair advantages for giving up 100-200 dollars for video game stuff. There's a person who spent 1000$ in evony to be untouchable. It's a socialist model that doesn't really allow in game competition seriously, but provides the illusion of it by all the poor people scraping each other while the real people who pay the way for the game with their 100s of dollars are always at the top.

How is this "socialist"? This is basically the definition of capitalism i.e. if you have more money you have more power... Not that I agree with it at all (I am a socialist) but this IS actually how the real world works.... the people with their "100s" of dollars are always at the top

[AssassinAdams]

I think paying real money for like factory custom mechs would not be a terrible idea. Long range or short range varients you could get for free saving the c-bills you made but faster with real money. Or making it cost a lot of c-bills and being able to buy c-bills for cash. I do think modifying and repairs should take time and c-bills to do, and that the more high end the equipment the longer it might take. Think about it, you could buy a clan ppc but it will take longer to adapt, and if it gets damaged your going to have to find someone to fix it. So you can spend the cash to get it but if it gets banged up your not using right away or it costs lots of c-bills. I think that would let people who want to spend the cash get nice stuff, but make things more balanced for those of us with mostly empty wallets.

[MaddMaxx]

I still prefer that it costs to take it off, then it costs to buy a new replacement and then it costs to have replaced. The Dev will decide (hoping) where you will be able to put the new gear.

As to the "Rare" Mechs. If they allow C-Bills to be bought for RL cash, then just sell the Mechs for C-Bills, but then why introduce a middle man element. If one is allowed, the other is the exact same except for the currency exchange.

Downtime won't fly, ever. Just convert that time into C-Bill equivalents and ADD it to the Invoice to paid. Call it a State Maintenance Fee +Tax if need be.

Did they eliminate Taxes in 3049?

[Ilfi]

Rare Mechs? No. Absolutely not. Rarity is a dangerous concept to play with, especially in F2P. Rarity attempts to walk the line between Pay-to-Win and useless collectible, but it always falls into one category or the other. It's not worth it.

Balance above all else.

[Oppi]

Sarriss, on 04 April 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

Why don't they want people tweaking their mechs a lot? Every other mech game has been built around the premise of tweaking and adjusting your mech.

And any other MW game was crap regarding the mechlab, because according to basically every single piece of BT fiction there is, you just can't do the things you were able to do in MW 3 / 4 if you don't have a clan omni. Switching weapons in a normal oldschool battlemech takes days, a team of very skilled techs, a fully equipped mechbay and sometimes it doesn't even work if you have all of the above. The whole internal structue of oldschool mechs (energy supplies, room for ammo transport and storage, position and configuration of heatsinks etc) is built to fit a specific weapons loadout. If you swap a Large Laser for an AC, maybe it'll tear your arm off the first time you pull the trigger because the mechs skeleton isn't built for the recoil at that point. If you swap your missiles for lasers, maybe the energy cables will melt down in action or you'll get heat issues because the chassis isn't built to dissipate lots of heat in that area.
Most things can be done given enough time and money (and that's why the TT rules allow it), but only a very small fraction of Mechwarriors owning their machines (house soldiers would pilot military property and just not be allowed to change that much) would have that kind of resources. So a system that makes big changes expensive and time consuming would be very close to the fiction.
(Of course you should be able to see the effect of your changes in some kind of statistics before you paid and waited for them.)

In every other system, mech variants won't matter and different mechs will end up being skins. I'd hate to see that.

@FenixStryk

Quote

Rarity attempts to walk the line between Pay-to-Win and useless collectible

Well ... I think everything you have to pay real money for should be a "useless collectible". Look at what League of Legends does. The only thing you can't purchase with ingame money in LoL are skins for your characters, and they make loads of money.
And if they made a mechlab like the ones MW 3 or 4 had (which I think they'll do, because making it realistic will pi** of many people who knew the old games), rare mechs would be just that, because you could always take a chassis of the same weight class and get the same (or a very similar) loadout on it.

Edited by Oppi, 04 April 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[AlanEsh]

FenixStryk, on 04 April 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

Rare Mechs? No. Absolutely not. Rarity is a dangerous concept to play with, especially in F2P. Rarity attempts to walk the line between Pay-to-Win and useless collectible, but it always falls into one category or the other. It's not worth it.

Balance above all else.

If rare != better, what's the harm in having "rare" equate to "more expensive"?

"useless collectible" is a major tenant tenet of the F2P model, btw. Like reskinned models, altered special effects, hats, monocles!!

Edited by Angelicon, 04 April 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[KuruptU4Fun]

It's been so long since I played BT/MW that I don't remember if this is a stupid question or not.

If I want to remove a large laser in interest of adding 2 medium lasers for example. What if the weight of those combined weapons outweighs the large laser? Would it cost you time/ c-bills to add additional mounting points to compensate? Or would you have to change out another weapon to lower the total tonnage without penalty?

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Well it looks like the Mechlab is a modified version of MW4 with variants being a separate entity. As always the devil will be in the detail but it looks as though you can make fairly extensive changes (limited by weight and crits) as long as you use the hardpoints.

[benwarrior]

like all of it except the different accounts and the timeout on the mech, yes i know realistic you would have to wait while stuff was fitted refitted but we aren't all going to have time to come online mess about then wait a day or two/ week to play with our selected tower of power. pay the c-bills to out fitt the mech yes. and keeping with the whole room for weapon and heat stuff love it, just because i could strip the armour and engine down on a raven doesn't mean it could hold an ac20 it would cripple the poor thing i want to leave an ac20 sized whole in my foe not a raven sized whole in the building behind me/ now in front of me.

[CCC Dober]

As for canonically correct time constraints of Mech modifications, this is cherry picking at its finest, really. The diehard canon followers are fine with deploying their Mechs seemingly instantly, but conveniently ignore all the other aspects that cause a Mech to spend more time in the hangar than on the battlefield. That said, canon is way too complex in this regard to allow for a fluid and fun game experience. It is decidedly not fun to worry about Mech maintenance, repairs and modification difficulties. And it is even less fun having your precious Mechs sit uselessly in the hangar because canon says so. MW3/4 did away with this (for the most part) and I say good riddance. There's more of this 'realistic' nonsense that hurts the game if you look close enough. Things that don't add to the fun, but take it away.

Edited by CCC_Dober, 04 April 2012 - 10:08 AM.