56 replies to this topic

[CeeKay Boques]

Whille MFD info is helpful, quickly looking left and right, where the cockping window DOES appear to expand in either direction, the ability to quickly assess your surroundings and increase situational awareness will really put you "In the game".

[Scar]

I still don't see the point, since the Mech's cockpit not semispherical, like fighter planes have. Virtually, you can see through the all sighting window at once.

I've asked Garth about TrackIR support, but after the screenshots and gameplay video, i don't see how it can be useful to increase situational awareness significantly. It's not a shortage, since the most part of players doesn't have TrackIR.

Edited by Scar, 09 March 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[Cake Bandit]

It would work better with some mechs than others. The madcat and the Bushwhacker would both do pretty well with it.

[Aegis Kleais]

Scar, on 09 March 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

I still don't see the point, since the Mech's cockpit not semispherical, like fighter planes have. Virtually, you can see through the all sighting window at once.

I've asked Garth about TrackIR support, but after the screenshots and gameplay video, i don't see how it can be useful to increase situational awareness significantly. It's not a shortage, since the most part of players doesn't have TrackIR.

I agree with this in part. With the recent footage, the vast majority of crucial information is on your screen. In the event you need to look at a instrumentation panel, quickly going into freelook and back out would be more than ample.

Having said that though, I still feel TrackIR would provide a deeper feeling of IMMERSION as that all your head movements are mimiced perfectly in the cockpit, making you feel like you are not only there, but also quickly giving you no need to use freelook toggle, as you have it readily available through TrackIR.

[CeeKay Boques]

I had review the trailer. No, there are clearly windows to the left and right. I'm not going to talk boaut the fact the torso never shifted left or right and the players reticule never moved, but there is a left and right above and lower window that we can only see 10% of. TiR would be awesome for that. Sorry, but it would be rockin'.

[Black Mamba]

TrackIR confirmed according to :

http://www.pcgamer.c...online-preview/

"...I’d just aim my arms, and maybe only have access to a few lasers rather than my full loadout. TrackIR support is also confirmed, thank goodness."

[Dihm]

Black Mamba, on 09 March 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

TrackIR confirmed according to :

http://www.pcgamer.c...online-preview/

"...I’d just aim my arms, and maybe only have access to a few lasers rather than my full loadout. TrackIR support is also confirmed, thank goodness."

Iiiiiinteresting.

Any PGI clarification, did PC Gamer hear you guys right?

[Shai tan]

"I still don't see the point, since the Mech's cockpit not semispherical, like fighter planes have. Virtually, you can see through the all sighting window at once."

Disagree.

TrackIR would be awesome for controlling your torso direction. And would dramticly increase player Immersion into feeling part OF your Mech. I think I`d like to try that for sure. Hopefully it can be set to control your torso view sideways/up down etc etc etc. We can still aim independantly using the joystick.

Edited by shai`tan, 12 March 2012 - 09:51 AM.

[Nemises]

It definitely multiplies the immersion if nothing else...
in study sims like DCS A10, you can still "mouse look" or joystick hat scroll around to get to switch panels, and people manage just fine, so it's not "essential" for all people to have..
However, once you have used trackir in a full 3d (clickable) cockpit, it is VERY difficult to go back....it is so very intuitive.

The major downside would be the developer overhead to make sure the Mech cockpit can be viewed correctly from any angle instead of from the limited FOV of most previous titles..

Not a big deal if Mech cockpits will be generic across all models...but a Major artwork overhead if each chassis has a unique cockpit.

Still, since I have a trackir, I definitely vote for the devs to support

[Scendore]

Track IR is a massive increase in both immersion and situational awareness. As a Sim pilot for the last 20 years I can assure you TrackIR support is a game changer and a must have. Simply put you will NEVER go back to using switches for viewing. I really hope this gets supported.

[Scar]

In combat aviation simulators or Arma 2 - yes, it changes awareness significantly. We're just not sure if it will be useful in the Mech with one relatively small sight window and all needed info on the HUD.

[Togg Bott]

Silent, on 07 March 2012 - 11:33 PM, said:

I think it could work if you used precision mode to smooth the curves out.

I'd use it more to just look around the cockpit though.

Goons.....****

Edited by Togg Bott, 21 March 2012 - 02:47 AM.

[mr Zonke]

In any mech where the FOV from the cockpit is wider than the FOV of the pilots eyes, TrackIR would be awesome!! And there will likely be many mechs where you can look to the sides I think. Really hope they support it (eventually at least).
If they even support 6DOF TrackIR's you can lean forward in that Atlas cockpit to get a much wider view of the outside...

Still want to control the gunsight with the mouse though, and be able to disconnect mouse/arm movement from torso movement..

[Zenner]

Track IR doesn't just have to control head movement around the cockpit. You could set it up for torso control as well. Simply look to the left or right to begin turning the torso, look a little further to turn faster, center your head to stop. Then use the mouse to control arm movement/arm reticule (Left hand) and a joystick (Right hand) for leg control/throttle..or something along those lines. And of course, to free look, tap a button on your keyboard and the tracking switches from torso control to free look... Just a thought. (The AH-64 Apache uses eye and head tracking equipment to automatically swivel the 30mm chaingun to any point within its traverse that the co-pilot is looking. Track iR is good enough to simulate that experience on a computer screen.)

the newest Track IR (version 5) is incredibly accurate; lightyears beyond any webcam head tracking software, and still leaps ahead of the previous model 4. I use it for X-Plane and it is extremely accurate. The settings are scaleable and on the more sensitive settings, a 2 to 3 degree shift in head movement translates to a smooth and predictable 30 degree perspective shift on screen. I have no doubt that with the pace of gameplay in any MechWarrior game, TrackiR 5 could be used to aim at least as well as a joystick.

[Scar]

Zenner, unfortunately - it won't work, for many reasons but the first of them is a low accuracy of the neck movements. How you planned to aim the torso weapons? With another controller in addition to the mouse and TrackIR? We already discussed that.

BTW, HMD on Apache provides only rough tracking for the M230. Fine aim is performing with the regular joystick on the weapons operator's station. Because of the same reason - low accuracy of the head tracking devices.

Edited by Scar, 21 March 2012 - 09:07 AM.

[Zenner]

Scar,

First, you completely ignored my statement of Track iR 5's increased sensitivity. Track IR is extremely sensitive and capable of very fine tuned movements. I'm not exactly sure what, "How you planned to aim the torso weapons?" means, but I assume you are referring to the fact that the mouse would be controlling the arm weapons, while the torso weapons are direct center firing. to answer that question then: you turn your head for lateral movement and actuate the joystick's Y axis to aim torso weapons. Now this is a rough concept, but the point is, you could use head tracking hardware to further augment game play beyond freelook.

And yes, you could use a joystick, a mouse, a keyboard, and TrackIR. Would there be a learning curve? Sure, is it possible? Very much so. A pilot flying a small plane in IFR conditions not only manipulates the controls to manually fly the plane, but also navigates, monitors and interprets several instruments at once, communicates with ATC, and writes notes...And that's just enroute, the workload is tremendously higher while on approach to an airport.

BTW, I'd like you to cite where you get your information. I am a helicopter flight engineer and I've been around plenty of AH-64s and I'm very curious where this 'regular joystick' is located. I can tell you that fine aiming is NOT performed using a regular joystick, least of all because that would defeat the purpose of the IHADSS system. How do you propose this would work? The co-pilot looks at the target, then looks down at the screen to finely adjust using this magic joystick? Sure, except that in the process of looking down the system followed the head movement and now it's looking somewhere else.

Here's how it really works. A system of IR sensors in the cockpit track the movement of either pilot's helmet. Each pilot has a visor eye piece that projects a HUD, an integral part of that HUD is a cross-hair that tracks the actual position of the M230, or other weapons within their designated field of fire. In other words, if the pilot quickly turned his or her head to the left, as the weapon slewed to the left, a crosshair would appear on the right side of pilot's HUD, and then center. The Apache's threat designation systems use millimeter wave technology to acquire and identify targets, it can identify persons, vehicles, aircraft, or other mission specific items. Additionally, it can even prioritize the targets according to which one is currently the most threatening to the aircraft. When the crosshair falls onto one of these targets, the pilot presses a switch on his cyclic, or collective (Can't remember which) locking that target. At that point the weapons stop following the helmet movement, and a live feed or "gun cam" is displayed on one of the pilot's MFDs.

Edited by Zenner, 21 March 2012 - 01:33 PM.

[Scar]

Zenner, on 21 March 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

Scar,

First, you completely ignored my statement of Track iR 5's increased sensitivity. Track IR is extremely sensitive and capable of very fine tuned movements.

TrackIR by itself - yes. But not TrackIR + your neck. In real life you're tracking the objects generally with your eyes, which are have stabilization and fast and precise small groups of muscles. Anatomically, your neck only provides the rough tracking of the sector of interest. We already discussed that in this thread and in the others about TrackIR.

Quote

I'm not exactly sure what, "How you planned to aim the torso weapons?" means, but I assume you are referring to the fact that the mouse would be controlling the arm weapons, while the torso weapons are direct center firing. to answer that question then: you turn your head for lateral movement and actuate the joystick's Y axis to aim torso weapons. Now this is a rough concept, but the point is, you could use head tracking hardware to further augment game play beyond freelook.

Aim the torso weapons with two controllers, each of these is responsible for only one axis?! No way.

Quote

And yes, you could use a joystick, a mouse, a keyboard, and TrackIR. Would there be a learning curve? Sure, is it possible? Very much so. A pilot flying a small plane in IFR conditions not only manipulates the controls to manually fly the plane, but also navigates, monitors and interprets several instruments at once, communicates with ATC, and writes notes...And that's just enroute, the workload is tremendously higher while on approach to an airport.

That's why some smart people designed a HOTAS concept for combat vehicles. The prize not worth the game you gonna play - too many difficulties, too low effeciency in result.

Quote

BTW, I'd like you to cite where you get your information. I am a helicopter flight engineer and I've been around plenty of AH-64s and I'm very curious where this 'regular joystick' is located. I can tell you that fine aiming is NOT performed using a regular joystick, least of all because that would defeat the purpose of the IHADSS system. How do you propose this would work?

Before i told you how the CPG aim the M230 in those blasting guncam records on YouTube - answer to yourself one single question: what a chance to fine aim the M230 with IDHASS, sitting in flying helicopter, which is constantly vibrating, turning and rolling, and finally - producing a lot of shaking?

For the fine weapon aiming in such conditions Apache' co-pilot has a great device, called "mission grip" besides the ORT MFD, with the thumbhat "MAN TRK" on it. That's why in the videos from Apache' guncam you can see the TADS FOV moving most time discretely, like someone pressing the buttons on keyborad.

Spoiler

An old variant of the grip on AH-64A

How it works step-by-step, according to the TM 1-1520-251-10 - Apache Operator's Manual.

1) Select the HMD as acquisition source
2) Push the SLAVE SWITCH button
2) Select TADS on the SIGHT SELECT SWITCH
3) Roughly place the HMD' crosshair to the sector of interest.
4) TADS LOS should following your head and HMD crosshair.
5) Once TADS LOS reached the sector of interest - push the LMC button on the RHG to keep the TADS LOS on the sector of interest.
6) Head down to the ORT
7) Push the SLAVE SWITCH button again
8) Start the fine-aim with the MAN TRK thumb-hat
9) <here is some random operations with the weapons>
10) Fire!

Quote

The co-pilot looks at the target, then looks down at the screen to finely adjust using this magic joystick? Sure, except that in the process of looking down the system followed the head movement and now it's looking somewhere else.

You didn't know about the "sight slaving", LMC, IAT and other stabilization modes on Apache?! RLY? You've made a very strange statement - for the Apache' flight engineer....

Quote

Here's how it really works. A system of IR sensors in the cockpit track the movement of either pilot's helmet. Each pilot has a visor eye piece that projects a HUD, an integral part of that HUD is a cross-hair that tracks the actual position of the M230, or other weapons within their designated field of fire. In other words, if the pilot quickly turned his or her head to the left, as the weapon slewed to the left, a crosshair would appear on the right side of pilot's HUD, and then center. The Apache's threat designation systems use millimeter wave technology to acquire and identify targets, it can identify persons, vehicles, aircraft, or other mission specific items. Additionally, it can even prioritize the targets according to which one is currently the most threatening to the aircraft. When the crosshair falls onto one of these targets, the pilot presses a switch on his cyclic, or collective (Can't remember which) locking that target. At that point the weapons stop following the helmet movement, and a live feed or "gun cam" is displayed on one of the pilot's MFDs.

Didn't get what Longbow millimeter wave RADAR have to do with the the HMD aiming algorithm. Yes, it can be slaved to HMD - but not very useful in the most cases. And how are you going to identify persons with it? It's not a job for Longbow RADAR - because it can detect only radio-contrast targets. So, if you're not attacking the regiment of heavy knights in steel armor - the Longbow is useless, it's a job for the FLIR on the TADS station.

Edited by Scar, 22 March 2012 - 03:29 AM.