42 replies to this topic

[Petroff Northrup]

I know it has been said before but this is not MW4, MW4 strayed pretty far from canon and TT, look more at MWLL all lasers and in fact all weapons I feel are quite viable in TT lasers are if anything overpowered and the small lasers in MWLL are well known to be nice when used almost like a scalpel to shear limbs off smaller enemies.

[Victor Morson]

Petroff Northrup, on 09 March 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

I know it has been said before but this is not MW4, MW4 strayed pretty far from canon and TT, look more at MWLL all lasers and in fact all weapons I feel are quite viable in TT lasers are if anything overpowered and the small lasers in MWLL are well known to be nice when used almost like a scalpel to shear limbs off smaller enemies.

I agree. When looking at what worked for lasers in past games, definitely MWLL and MPBT3025 are the two best ones to look at. For those who missed MPBT (RIP, killed by Microsoft vs EA Lawsuit), that was probably the single best MechWarrior incarnation of lasers to date.

[Bouncin]

Just some TT CBT Stats to consider:

Large Laser: Heat:8, Damage:8, Range 1-5 (short) 6-10, (medium), 11-15 (long), 5 tons, 2 critical locations, no ammo requirements.
Medium Laser: Heat:3, Damage:5, Range 1-3 (short), 4-6 (medium), 7-9 (long), 1 ton, 1 crit location, no ammo requirements.
AC/20: Heat:7, Damage: 20, Range 1-3 (short), 4-6 (medium), 7-9 (long), 14 tons, 10 crit locations, 5 shots per ton of ammo.

The devs have said that they are trying to keep things as close to canon as possible, so if they do, then med lasers are going to be just as, if not more effective than, the AC/20, all things considered. for example, you only need 4 MLAS to dish out the same dmg as an AC/20, which would generate 12 heat rather than the 7 of the AC/20. But wait, the AC/20 weighs a whopping 14 tons and takes up a massive amt of internal space (critical slots), whereas the 4 mlas will only take up 4 tons and 4 crit slots. this means you can add 5 heat sinks to drop the heat to resemble the AC/20's, and still have 5 tons left, and this is not even concidering the ammo that you don't need with the lasers. In all, while the AC/20 was great for delivering a massive amt of dmg to one hit location on an opponent, it was a big tradeoff when you concider longevity in th field, weight, and space. I do hope that they find a way to bring into play the tactical advantage of a single massive shot, however, or the AC/20 may just go by the wayside.....

[Garth Erlam]

To give you an idea of how all weapons are viable, I saw a 1v1 between two Hunchbacks and the winning shot was from a Hunchback, sans arms and the AC/20, headshotting the other Hunch with the Small Laser. It was an awesome duel, reminded me of a great boxing match.

Also - in reference to 4 ML's vs. AC/20, the way to think about it is: Lasers need time on target to do full damage. AC/20 is either hit, or don't. That means that pilot skill greatly determines the effectiveness of the weapon. Sure ML's can put out the damage in groups - if you can keep them on target.

[Felix Dante]

Garth Erlam, on 09 March 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

To give you an idea of how all weapons are viable, I saw a 1v1 between two Hunchbacks and the winning shot was from a Hunchback, sans arms and the AC/20, headshotting the other Hunch with the Small Laser. It was an awesome duel, reminded me of a great boxing match.

Also - in reference to 4 ML's vs. AC/20, the way to think about it is: Lasers need time on target to do full damage. AC/20 is either hit, or don't. That means that pilot skill greatly determines the effectiveness of the weapon. Sure ML's can put out the damage in groups - if you can keep them on target.

THAT is what I wanted to hear!

[DarkTreader]

Garth Erlam, on 09 March 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

To give you an idea of how all weapons are viable, I saw a 1v1 between two Hunchbacks and the winning shot was from a Hunchback, sans arms and the AC/20, headshotting the other Hunch with the Small Laser. It was an awesome duel, reminded me of a great boxing match.

Also - in reference to 4 ML's vs. AC/20, the way to think about it is: Lasers need time on target to do full damage. AC/20 is either hit, or don't. That means that pilot skill greatly determines the effectiveness of the weapon. Sure ML's can put out the damage in groups - if you can keep them on target.

This tells me that, based on how we saw the lasers functioning in the video, that we may have a few different ways to deal damage with lasers -
1) raking shots - dealing reduced damage across multiple areas of the target as it/your reticule moves across multiple damage boxes
2) focused shots - dealing full damage to one area by keeping that point firmly under your reticule

Wonder what the damage dropoff is going to be for raking shots... because if it's a percentage based on how long the beam hits the hitbox, laser boats used by someone with some finesse on the targeting could easily learn how to laser rake and tear 'Mechs to pieces in short order.

[Garth Erlam]

To be clear, it's damn near impossible to keep a laser on a specific area while both you and the target are moving. Remember that A) people aren't holding still; B ) The ground isn't a massive flat surface all over - there are hills, valleys, etc; C) People are twisting, jump-jetting, and all sorts of things to throw your aim off.

It's not just a matter of 'having good aim,' but also having good positioning, and the ability to know what your target will do. For example I know paul likes to hide his Jenner on ridges and fire from them, then retreat. Knowing that means I can predict he'll do it and drop LRM's on his head.

[Maverick Howell]

well said ^

also in mw4 i used a super nova with just small lazers at a cycling rate so that i could constantly do damage without ever getting close to over heating. you just have to find something that you like and works.

[SI The Joker]

Garth Erlam, on 09 March 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

To be clear, it's damn near impossible to keep a laser on a specific area while both you and the target are moving. Remember that A) people aren't holding still; B ) The ground isn't a massive flat surface all over - there are hills, valleys, etc; C) People are twisting, jump-jetting, and all sorts of things to throw your aim off.

It's not just a matter of 'having good aim,' but also having good positioning, and the ability to know what your target will do. For example I know paul likes to hide his Jenner on ridges and fire from them, then retreat. Knowing that means I can predict he'll do it and drop LRM's on his head.

This is great; Exactly what I would've hoped to hear, yet again.

It's called strategy folks, and I can't wait to use it!

[Victor Morson]

Maverick Howell, on 09 March 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

well said ^

also in mw4 i used a super nova with just small lazers at a cycling rate so that i could constantly do damage without ever getting close to over heating. you just have to find something that you like and works.

I get what you are saying, but I think you mean a Novacat. Or were you playing hardcore?

Chain firing small lasers was terrible in just about any version of MW4 unfortunately.

[Helmer]

Garth Erlam, on 09 March 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

For example I know paul likes to hide his Jenner on ridges and fire from them, then retreat. Knowing that means I can predict he'll do it and drop LRM's on his head.

Garth , can you post more about killing Paul?

Oh and can you say it reeeeal slowly in a deep voice?

Thanks.

[Sinitron]

Redburn, on 09 March 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

No Flame, just a request. Please check canon and TT before making primary weapons statements like this. It's not right.

What isn't right? The Wolfhound uses a large laser as its primary weapon, with medium lasers as secondary weapons for short-range combat. You also wouldn't deck out a slow-moving Awesome with short-ranged medium lasers when you could get PPCs or whatever other good stuff. Sure, you have some 'mechs that use medium lasers as primary weapons, though I can only think of the Nova right now, but you'd get a Hunchback for the bang of an AC/20, not to spam lasers, just like it would be weird to cram a Catapult full of machineguns or put an Atlas on its head.

If you want me to be extremely specific, small and medium lasers are at best support weapons for *assaults*, as the OP mentioned decking out an assault with medium lasers, which should never be a good idea. Not completely unviable by all means, but not a particularily smart move.

[Charles Martel]

Volume, on 09 March 2012 - 03:27 AM, said:

5: Pulse lasers will probably not even be available, and you can see already that the variants you can purchase in this game have the "standard" loadouts (HBK-4G, for example) and will have the AC20, SLAS, and two MLAS, rather than the "mechwarrior 4" loadouts of a LBXAC20, SRM6, and 2 Med lasers.

Pulse lasers for IS mechs is correct for 3049. They were re-introduced in 3037.

[FinnMcKool]

Sinitron, on 10 March 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

What isn't right? The Wolfhound uses a large laser as its primary weapon, with medium lasers as secondary weapons for short-range combat. You also wouldn't deck out a slow-moving Awesome with short-ranged medium lasers when you could get PPCs or whatever other good stuff. Sure, you have some 'mechs that use medium lasers as primary weapons, though I can only think of the Nova right now, but you'd get a Hunchback for the bang of an AC/20, not to spam lasers, just like it would be weird to cram a Catapult full of machineguns or put an Atlas on its head.

If you want me to be extremely specific, small and medium lasers are at best support weapons for *assaults*, as the OP mentioned decking out an assault with medium lasers, which should never be a good idea. Not completely unviable by all means, but not a particularily smart move.

MW2 Mercs thats exactly what I did , with jj to keep me moving / facing the correct direction,Atlas with Med lazers where the best combo.

But truth being said Im hoping for a little less ability to customize like that , or everyone will be driven the same boats.

[S3dition]

One of the powerful things about medium lasers is the ability to chain fire them with little to no heat build up. Sure, one or two large lasers can pack a pretty good punch, but if you miss you're going to be a sitting duck while you wait for those lasers to recharge and heat to dissipate.

4 medium lasers make a kind of gatling effect and can dish a lot of damage with higher hit probability.

[Belisarius1]

Dude, pinpoint accuracy, hitscan, low weight and infinite shots are an incredible advantage. ERLLs were singularly overpowered in vanilla MW4 because of those very characteristics, despite having only average range and damage.

The issue with the smaller laser classes in MW4 is their crippled damage ratios and how good the ERLL is in comparison. Their actual weapon characteristics are, in a word, ideal. You don't need to go fundamentally nerfing everything else, just make them a bit stronger.

Edited by Belisarius†, 11 March 2012 - 08:46 PM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

We now know from the gamplay vid at GDC and comments afterwards that;
1) Lasers now shoot to the edge of the map, but damage drops off after TT max range.
2) Lasers are Damage over Time - you have to hold them on the target to do the damage.
3) Convergence of torso mounted weapons is not "pinpoint", they won't all hit in the same place.

So the Hunchback 4P with it's 8 MLs will still do a lot of damage, but not all in the same place at the same time. It looks like tha balancing of Lasers v AC's might have evened things up.

[Spooky]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 11 March 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

1) Lasers now shoot to the edge of the map, but damage drops off after TT max range.

From what did you deduce that?

Nik Van Rhijn, on 11 March 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

3) Convergence of torso mounted weapons is not "pinpoint", they won't all hit in the same place.

So the Hunchback 4P with it's 8 MLs will still do a lot of damage, but not all in the same place at the same time. It looks like tha balancing of Lasers v AC's might have evened things up.

According to a Dev post, weapon convergence simply lags behind. So hitting with all your weapons into the same place is still possible.

Edited by Spooky, 12 March 2012 - 01:50 AM.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Spooky, on 12 March 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

From what did you deduce that?
According to a Dev post, weapon convergence simply lags behind. So hitting with all your weapons into the same place is still possible.

Garth I think posted it in another thread. Lasers are 0-max range = full damage. Max range to max render it'll drop to zero. don't know the rate, or it its linear or not, but laser will damage as far as you can see.

[Spooky]

Ah cool