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I don't ask for much, but PLEASE do these two things...


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#21 Strum Wealh

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 10:02 AM

"Enforcers use big, ten-round clips that are easily slipped into and out of the 'Mech's back."

Additionally, TechManual states (on page 208) that the reason that Ultra Autocannons cannot use any of the special munitions is because "their own magazines are tailored to the high-speed firing modes, which can be dangerous or detrimental to most specialty ammo".

"Mounted on the Quickscell Hetzer Combat Vehicle, this weapon [Ceres Metals Crusher Super-Heavy Cannon (AC-20)] fires shells in the 150 mm range in ten shot bursts."

There is substantial evidence to support the claim that ACs in BT/MW are clip-fed or magazine-fed weapons, where the listed "ammo per ton" indicates the number of clips or magazines available, where each clip or magazine contains multiple individual shells (ten shells per clip/magazine in the examples of the Enforcer and Hetzer).

Assuming 10 shells per clip/magazine is fairly standard, a rate-of-fire of two shells per second (one shell fired every half-second) is reasonable - with a BT turn representing a 10-second period, the clip/shell would be emptied in 5 seconds, with the replacement of the clip/magazine taking another 5 seconds (with both the ROF and clip/magazine-replacement times decreasing for both the Ultra ACs and Rotary ACs (when they come along) when set to their respective high-ROF modes).
(Additionally, my thoughts on calibers, ranges, and muzzle velocities are detailed here.)

I would like to see that aspect of autocannons modeled in MWO, along with having each shell considered as a separate projectile.
If some of the shells strike different parts of the target, or even miss completely... c'est la vie, yes? <_<

Your thoughts?

#22 Gremlich Johns

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 10:08 AM

The subject of autcannon projectiles. Are they just non-exploding projectiles like non-armor piercing machine gun bullets? (which I think is bogus - if missiles have exploding warheads, so too should AC 10 and 20 rounds. It is easy enough to make them HEAT (high-explosive anti-tank) munitions. the gauss slug does not explode and it should knock your @ $ $ around a bit. UAC/AC/RAC rounds can be bullets since they are smaller. And rotary cannons should have a huge drum magazine like the GAU-8 does, not like the traditional old-fashioned gatling gun (which had clips not belts) Those changes would certainly make MWO stand out from other mecha games. I like range too.

Gimme my unreasonable demands!!

View PostSnowDragon, on 11 March 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:


As for PPCs, no blue balls, thanks.


Yes, please, no blue balls.

Heh

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 11 March 2012 - 10:07 AM.


#23 SnowDragon

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 10:09 AM

I remember a quote from one of the unit books about a special character, talked about how she could 'anticpate a jam in her Rotary AC 5, and would change the magazine before it would happen'

#24 Strum Wealh

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 11:18 AM

View PostGremlich Johns, on 11 March 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

The subject of autcannon projectiles. Are they just non-exploding projectiles like non-armor piercing machine gun bullets? (which I think is bogus - if missiles have exploding warheads, so too should AC 10 and 20 rounds. It is easy enough to make them HEAT (high-explosive anti-tank) munitions. the gauss slug does not explode and it should knock your @ $ $ around a bit. UAC/AC/RAC rounds can be bullets since they are smaller. And rotary cannons should have a huge drum magazine like the GAU-8 does, not like the traditional old-fashioned gatling gun (which had clips not belts) Those changes would certainly make MWO stand out from other mecha games. I like range too.


ACs fire shells (mostly-hollow ballistic projectiles filled with a payload; BT/MW autocannons typically (canonically) fire high-explosive armor-piercing (HEAP) shells, but other types were available (though, only LB-X ACs can fire their special cluster munitions and only standard and light ACs can make use of the special munitions)).
Canonically, all ACs (including the Rotary ACs) seem to use the clip/magazine system (as opposed to belts and/or drums (because a 10-shell drum seems doesn't really seem worthwhile or space-efficient... :rolleyes:)) and all fire shells rather than other projectile types (see below).

Gauss Rifles fire ferromagnetic slugs (solid ballistic projectiles).

Machine Guns fire conventional bullets (mostly-solid ballistic projectiles; may carry a small payload or modification in the tip).

At this time, I don't know of any sources that describe the loading systems for BT/MW Gauss Rifles or Machine Guns, but I suspect that both may be fed through some variant of a belt system...? :)

#25 TheRulesLawyer

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

View PostStrum Wealh, on 11 March 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

"Enforcers use big, ten-round clips that are easily slipped into and out of the 'Mech's back."

Additionally, TechManual states (on page 208) that the reason that Ultra Autocannons cannot use any of the special munitions is because "their own magazines are tailored to the high-speed firing modes, which can be dangerous or detrimental to most specialty ammo".

"Mounted on the Quickscell Hetzer Combat Vehicle, this weapon [Ceres Metals Crusher Super-Heavy Cannon (AC-20)] fires shells in the 150 mm range in ten shot bursts."

There is substantial evidence to support the claim that ACs in BT/MW are clip-fed or magazine-fed weapons, where the listed "ammo per ton" indicates the number of clips or magazines available, where each clip or magazine contains multiple individual shells (ten shells per clip/magazine in the examples of the Enforcer and Hetzer).

Assuming 10 shells per clip/magazine is fairly standard, a rate-of-fire of two shells per second (one shell fired every half-second) is reasonable - with a BT turn representing a 10-second period, the clip/shell would be emptied in 5 seconds, with the replacement of the clip/magazine taking another 5 seconds (with both the ROF and clip/magazine-replacement times decreasing for both the Ultra ACs and Rotary ACs (when they come along) when set to their respective high-ROF modes).
(Additionally, my thoughts on calibers, ranges, and muzzle velocities are detailed here.)

I would like to see that aspect of autocannons modeled in MWO, along with having each shell considered as a separate projectile.
If some of the shells strike different parts of the target, or even miss completely... c'est la vie, yes? ;)

Your thoughts?


As much as I'd love to see AC's firing bursts, I'd be very concerned about the balance issues of spreading around damage. AC's already have enough disadvantages in battletech. No need to make them worse.

What you'd really need to do is make it possible to empty a mag and reload quicker than the 10s round. Then a AC's lower heat becomes a real asset as you can do higher DPS with it and not run into heat issues.

#26 Dihm

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:53 AM

I don't ask for much, but PLEASE make thread title descriptive of the content of the thread. ;)

Otherwise, I concur.

#27 Aegis Kleais

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 10:02 AM

View PostDihm, on 12 March 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

I don't ask for much, but PLEASE make thread title descriptive of the content of the thread. ;)

Otherwise, I concur.

Got an actual lol outta me. Shack.

#28 MaddMaxx

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 10:18 AM

2009 trailer for PPC. As for AC's. why not have multiple munition loads/types, if, an AC5 fires 1 shell for 5 damage, or 5 shells @1 each. Same for all the others. AC10 and AC20.

Spread is not as bad as it seems. For the faster movers if you missed with a single shell AC5, versus got 2x1pt in it would be better bit not game changing. Assuming equal ammo used, 2pts of damage, versus 0 would be the advantage.

AND, if you can hit a fast mover with ALL 5 1pt'rs, then you should probably be using the Single shell version anyways. ;)

#29 SpiralRazor

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 10:54 AM

Its completely clear the PPC should be a bolt of ionized plasma...IE directed energy stream....



Its also completely clear from the books that the Autocannons were portrayed as both

This is cannon, TechManual, p317:

"The Autocannon is a direct-fire ballistic weapon, firing HEAP (High-Explosive Armor-Piercing) rounds at targets either singly or in bursts.

Different manufacturers and models of autocannons have different calibers (25mm-203mm) and rates of fire. Due to this, autocannons are grouped into generic "classes" of autocannons with common damage ratings, with Autocannon/20s doing massive damage while having very short range.

An example of the rating system: the Crusher Super Heavy Cannon is a 150mm weapon firing ten shells per "round" while the Chemjet Gun is a 185mm weapon firing much slower (possibly 1 shell), and causing higher damage per shell. Despite their differences, both are classified as Autocannon/20s due to their damage output. "



Ultra and LBX cannons can only fire the standard HEAP rounds.

Standard ACs can fire Standard, armor piercieng, incindiary, flechette, and precision rounds.


Autocannon Manufacturers:

Brand Planet Company ChemJet Gun 185mm Betelgeuse Aldis Industries ChemJet Gun 185mm New Samarkand New Samarkand Metals ChemJet Gun 185mm Terra Aldis Industries Armstrong Requiem Ramora United Outworlders Corporation Crusher SH Cannon Kalidasa Quikscell Company Crusher SH Cannon Indicass Ceres Metals Industries Defiance 'Mech Hunter Hesperus II Defiance Industries Imperator Zeta-A Atreus Imperator Automatic Weaponry Kali Yama Big Bore Kalidasa Kali Yama Weapons Industries Incorporated Luxor Devastator-20 New Syrtis Johnston Industries Mydron A Bithinia Bithinian Ballistics Mydron A Gulkana Yeffters Weapons Factory Pontiac 100 Sterope Sterope Defense Industries Scarborough Original 20 Al Na'ir Scarborough Manufacturers Scarborough Original 20 Scarborough Scarborough Limited

#30 Felbombling

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 11:32 AM

1. In the future, I'll make my post titles much less cryptic, so that people know what they're about to look at. Never thought of it that way, so I'm sorry. I must also admit to being fairly new to message boards, so perhaps my inexperience shows.

2. I fully understand Autocannon classes now, based on SpiralRazor's post. Thank you.

#31 SnowDragon

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 09:44 PM

This is a PPC, ladies and Gents. That is all.

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#32 Dihm

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Posted 13 March 2012 - 07:42 AM

Technically that's an ER PPC. :D

#33 Lycan

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 04:23 PM

View Postautogyro, on 11 March 2012 - 04:59 AM, said:


No, but we must be careful going the other way - allowing people to pay for damage to be concentrated into a single shot rather than spread over a 3 or 4 round burst is, in fact, a tactical advantage, and therefore pay to win.

You can also construe that having 3-4 round bursts rather than a single shot does convey some tactical advantages (more likely to hit fast mechs since you can spray them) and therefore constitutes pay to win.


That's just it.

According to the cannon descriptions of the Autocannons used in Battletech/Mechwarrior (which I believe was posted early) it's not the amount of bullets that does the damage, it's the class of autocannon that determines it.

That's what I meant about getting no game effect for it.

If I'm firing an AC/20, it doesn't matter if I'm shooting a stream of shells or just one, I'm only going to do 20 points of damage, regardless. So you're worry is moot due to the fluff of the game itself.

#34 geck0 icaza

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:36 PM

Im personally a fan of the single slug AC and I LOVE the look of the PPC's in the 2009 trailer. Not going to argue, its just how I like it. But I rather have the weapons be balanced than pretty (even though I LOVE pretty). But I'm sure the devs will blow us away with what they have. And if not we'll let them know. :D

#35 Aegis Kleais

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 05:56 PM

View PostDihm, on 13 March 2012 - 07:42 AM, said:

Technically that's an ER PPC. :D

Dihm with the Tech-Burn! Nice!

#36 Orzorn

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostLycan, on 14 March 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:


That's just it.

According to the cannon descriptions of the Autocannons used in Battletech/Mechwarrior (which I believe was posted early) it's not the amount of bullets that does the damage, it's the class of autocannon that determines it.

That's what I meant about getting no game effect for it.

If I'm firing an AC/20, it doesn't matter if I'm shooting a stream of shells or just one, I'm only going to do 20 points of damage, regardless. So you're worry is moot due to the fluff of the game itself.

But those concerns, when placed in the context of a real-time first person simulator environment, ARE legitimate. In the TT, the rolls are the same for an AC, regardless of fluff, but in a game, a weapon that fired a single round vs multiples would react differently.

Personally, I'd prefer the weapon that fires multiple rounds, so I could spread the damage if I wished. I think that is something the developers should consider. I'd love to see that part of the fluff implemented, because it DOES have a potential impact on gameplay.

#37 Fachxphyre

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 08:17 PM

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Autocannon completely disregarding fluff debates, it doesn't make much sense to call them autocannons if they're not capable of rapid fire. If they are firing single shells, they're just cannons. from a gaming perspective, it would be nice to have a burst-fire weapon to stand in contrast with the single high-damage shot of the gauss rifle and the steady stream from machineguns. especially with the implementation of recoil, it would be quite possible to aim "center mass" on a target, and let the recoil track upwards from the center torso to the cockpit, in hopes of scoring some nice crits.

#38 Strum Wealh

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:11 PM

View PostFachxphyre, on 14 March 2012 - 08:17 PM, said:

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Autocannon completely disregarding fluff debates, it doesn't make much sense to call them autocannons if they're not capable of rapid fire. If they are firing single shells, they're just cannons. from a gaming perspective, it would be nice to have a burst-fire weapon to stand in contrast with the single high-damage shot of the gauss rifle and the steady stream from machineguns. especially with the implementation of recoil, it would be quite possible to aim "center mass" on a target, and let the recoil track upwards from the center torso to the cockpit, in hopes of scoring some nice crits.


I disagree.

An autocannon is just that - an automatic cannon - because it is a cannon utilizes an automatic loading and priming mechanism (rather than a manual loading mechanism).

"An automatic weapon fires, automatically extracts the used cartridge case from the barrel and ejects it, then loads a new case into the barrel; generally either by harnessing the recoil of the cartridge's explosion, or the diversion of propellant gases."

"The term can be used to refer to semi-automatic firearms, which fire one shot per single pull of the trigger (like the .45 "automatic"), or fully automatic firearms, which will continue to load and fire ammunition until the trigger (or other activating device) is released, the ammunition is exhausted, or the firearm is jammed."

"A fully automatic weapon (a machine gun) is one that fires a succession of bullets so long as the trigger is depressed or until the ammunition supply is exhausted."

"A semi-automatic, or self-loading firearm is a weapon which performs all steps necessary to prepare the weapon to fire again after firing—assuming cartridges remain in the weapon's feed device or magazine. Typically, this includes extracting and ejecting the spent cartridge case from the weapon's firing chamber, re-cocking the firing mechanism, and loading a new cartridge into the firing chamber. Although automatic weapons and selective fire firearms do the same tasks, semi-automatic firearms do not automatically fire an additional round until the trigger is released and re-pressed by the person firing the weapon."

"Manual operation is a firearms term describing any type of firearm action that is loaded one shot at a time by the user rather than automatically. For example, break action is a form of manual operation using a simple hinge mechanism that is manually unlatched by the operator exposing the chamber(s) for reloading."

The higher rates-of-fire of automatic (and semi-automatic) weapons are byproducts of the tendency of the automatic loading and priming mechanism to be able to prepare the weapon to fire another projectile much more quickly than manual operation can practically do so; actual rates-of-fire are irrelevant to the definition or designation of automatic weapons (including autocannons) as the actual ROF has no impact on whether an automatic loading and priming mechanism is present.

That being said, I would like to see a variety of ACs in each class that can, by user toggle, fire in any of "semi-auto mode" (one shell fired per trigger-pull), "burst mode" (a short burst of 3-10 shells per trigger pull, with the trigger needing to be released between bursts), or "full-auto mode" (continuous firing for as long as the trigger is held and ammunition is available).
Failing that, I too would prefer ACs to fill the niche of "burst-fire weapon" to complement the Gauss Rifle's semi-auto and the MG's full-auto roles.

Your thoughts?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 14 March 2012 - 09:13 PM.


#39 FACEman Peck

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 09:31 PM

View PostStaggerCheck, on 09 March 2012 - 07:55 PM, said:

Autocannons : Again, I have seen the game play video and am slightly concerned... the firing of Autocannons are depicted in the game as 'clips' of ammunition that fire off in rapid succession per trigger pull... not a single solid slug. [You need to leave the single depleted metallic rounds for the Gauss Rifle! :D

The AC20 was depicted in the gameplay video, it was a single shot, and it hit the enemy HARD.

#40 guardiandashi

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Posted 14 March 2012 - 10:16 PM

from my understanding no autocannon actually fires "single shots" in battletech that is the provence of a "retro tech" weapon the CPR guns aka rifles

a really big ac20 (say 208mm)might only fire 2-3 rounds in its 2.5 second firing phase (going from the solaris 7 boxed set rules) and spend 7.5 seconds cooling down and reloading and a smaller calibur say 50-100 mm ac20 might fire up to 100 individual rounds in its 2.5 second firing "burst"

the "rounds" cited specifically refer to the individual clips, belts or magazines of ammo that contain whatever number of rounds the "burst" is for that particular autocannon

some autocannons are described (such as the marauders GM whirlwind ac5) as having the ammo feed being basically a 5 round revolver drum or cylinder http://en.wikipedia...._357MAG_009.jpg that has the 5 rounds loaded in it that is moved into the "breach area" of the revolver the 5 rounds fire (aprox every 0.5 seconds) and then then expended cylinder is moved to a storage location and a new cylinder is loaded.

the riflemans 80 mm ac 5's are described as firing "belted" disintregating link ammo http://en.wikipedia....elt_5.56_mm.jpg of course a 80mm gun is going to fire significantly more shots per burst than a 120mm weapon





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