37 replies to this topic

[Agent CraZy DiP]

This is probably a bad idea, but an idea none the less.

Have the Mic in-game constantly record. Now now, hold up before you flame. You don't have to Tune into what's being broadcasted. Now you can choose what specific channel you listen to and broadcast on. This would bring up a game element of spying on a general channel that anyone can listen to, but only those that can descramble can hear. depending on the skill could determine how often it cuts out or how much static gets cleared.

Like I said, it's just a thought. I myself have my doubts about it, but it's something that could be worked on and tinkered with.

[Morashtak]

Other than using a privacy invading snooper program there is little way to keep people from using TS/Mumble/etc. IF a VoIP channel is included it will need to have features beyond what the third party programs bring to the table; Ease of use, free, no performance hits, etc.

While it would be nice to add to the immersion with comm scrambler ECM, static from PPC weapon hits, comm out due to cockpit hits, etc my gut says people are going to stick with what they are comfortable with.

Perhaps the community would use gentle peer pressure to only use an in-game VoIP (provided there is one, of course). But if the comm could ever be shut down there will come along a team that would not use it and "exploit" the opposing team that did. That's life on the Internet, sadly.

[Damocles]

Have punkbuster flag outside VOIP

LoL

[Kaemon]

It would be interesting if you caught a phrase here and there from the static when your scouts got close to enemy mechs for long enough to 'descramble' their coms (that might take a while though, keep in mind this entire time they're shooting at you).

Sadly you'd probably get more info about the state of their hangover or how badly they need to pee than actual in game intel.



This might work if we have multi-objective game play, and one side was given an objective (2 out of 3 possible let's say) by the computer, and you were able to 'intercept' that command (so you knew which objectives to defend and which ones to ignore or lightly defend, as they will still cost you to repair).

But now we're most likely talking Merc Corp, and while I do hope for these types of scenario's I don't think it's going to get that in-depth, really because of the time-line we're on.

If we had another year before the clan invasion I could see it, but (based on the GDC vids) there's a lot of tweaking game play, mech model adds, role warfare tweaks, stress testing (BETA) that still needs to be done.

Launching into very complex game play modes, and then the required dev parts for communication (and the warfare associated with it) might be a bit low on the 'Honey Do' list.

Who knows? Maybe it's already in the can and they just didn't demo it at GDC?

[Strum Wealh]

Damocles, on 10 March 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Have punkbuster flag outside VOIP

LoL

If one actually wanted in-game E-War to really be able to affect the opposing team's command and control abilities, this is probably what one would have to do - have whatever anti-cheating agent is used (if any) flag-and-disllow third-party VOIP applications (assuming they have that capability) while the game itself provides an in-game version.

I suspect there would be much raging and foul language if such a plan were actually implemented...

[Vernius Ix]

I am going to go with a NO on this one.

[Kaemon]

Strum Wealh, on 10 March 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

If one actually wanted in-game E-War to really be able to affect the opposing team's command and control abilities, this is probably what one would have to do - have whatever anti-cheating agent is used (if any) flag-and-disllow third-party VOIP applications (assuming they have that capability) while the game itself provides an in-game version.

I suspect there would be much raging and foul language if such a plan were actually implemented...

Agreed, this is a terrible idea, 3rd party VOIP is the norm, not the exception for online games, you don't institute a 'more carrot, less stick' philosophy and then do something like this, it will severely affect the user base.

Variable based objectives assigned at start is about the only way you can do this, on the plus side, it allows for a bit of voice acting since the transmissions are 'canned' (also, you could let the community come up with a few and pick the best ones every few months for variety).

[CyBerkut]

It's not only an inadvisable concept... it is also unenforceable. Even with some sort of PunkBuster type of program incorporated to block other VOIP... it couldn't stop me from just logging on to my team's TS3 server with one of my other computers. Worst case, I'd have to put up with using voice activation instead of my preferred push-to-talk button on my HOTAS.

[Dlardrageth]

Way too many workarounds to be a realistic option. Some as simple as e.g. using cell phones to communicate without relying on the game comms. How are you going to prevent that one?

[FinnMcKool]

I think Google already does this???

[Silent]

About the only way to get people to use a third paty VoIP less is by implementing a decent in-game system for VoIP. I recall Battlefield 2 having a decent system setup where when you joined a created squad you were in your own voice channel and could only talk to your squadmates, seem to recall most people using that system over third party programs.

Not guarenteed of course, people are going to use what they want. Forcing a block on Teamspeak/Mumble/Ventrilo would just cause people to become hostile to the game and probably not play it.

[John Clavell]

It's very difficult to match third party VOIP software. They can do stuff that no in game VOIP solution can do. Stuff like on TS2 and TS3 allowing access to a teams server only via a verified forum account. PGI should focus on making a good game, not good VOIP software. It's time and money taken away from the game. Forcing people to use an in game VOIP solution which would most likely be inferior to third-party options is not a good way to put smiles on peoples faces.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

There are a variety of 3rd party VOIP systems out there. This is not a problem for a merc corps or a group playing together. What about PUG matches? Are you seriously sugessting that we try to get 12 complete strangers to agree and link on to a private system? Sure the merc corps will use their own systems - assuming that they don't drop shorthanded and have a couple of Lone Wolves join up. This is supposed to be a team game and it would be senseless to not have a good built in system so that everyone can use it.

[Victor Morson]

Agent CraZy DiP, on 09 March 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

This is probably a bad idea, but an idea none the less.

Have the Mic in-game constantly record. Now now, hold up before you flame. You don't have to Tune into what's being broadcasted. Now you can choose what specific channel you listen to and broadcast on. This would bring up a game element of spying on a general channel that anyone can listen to, but only those that can descramble can hear. depending on the skill could determine how often it cuts out or how much static gets cleared.

Like I said, it's just a thought. I myself have my doubts about it, but it's something that could be worked on and tinkered with.

There are many times I do NOT want to transmit. If I'm talking to my girlfriend, she's watching TV, if I get a phone call.. games that have actually done "always on" VOIP (there have been a few, it's considered a bug!) require you to drop your transmission volume to 0 to avoid it, and it's a huge pain in the ***.

I understand the theory. There are cool tricks a game can do with VOIP if it controls it, which some console games took advantage of - a Splinter Cell game, for example, lets you bug another team then listen to their voice chat. It's a great idea that external programs wreck.

That said I believe two things pretty strongly:

• NO effort to restrict players from external VOIP will end well. Some people will prefer it. Others will like to have a second transmit key setup to access two different VOIPs situation depending - to talk to their friends and to talk to the game.
  
• None of the neat tricks I just mentioned should be attempted with the in-game VOIP. I mean again, it's something that'd work if it COULD be enforced - but it can't. It'd be awesome to have recon 'mechs be able to hack the enemy com network.. but outside of a closed system like consoles this is a terrible idea as it will just force players to use external VOIP rather than giving them the option.
  
• A strong, well handled VOIP mechanic should be included with the game due to the nature of the teamwork required. Valve has great VOIP (despite many companies giving game-centric VOIP a bad rap) which lets you easily talk to the people you are playing with, something required in titles like Left 4 Dead as teamwork is completely vital. MechWarrior is going to require just as much, if not more, teamwork and not being able to communicate quickly with people you've just met would harm the game.

That said, even in option 2 - people DO like running their own VoiP for a whole bunch of reasons. Sometimes they want to talk to everybody and not just their own team, while retaining a private team chat for example; others just prefer the quality of programs like Mumble. Hardcore players may prefer using TeamSpeak 3, where a nested communication setup can be configured - i.e. each lance by default only translates to THEIR lance, but the overall commander can hit a second button to transmit to ALL lances. It's the kind of thing people will like, but is probably overkill for the included chat software.


So yeah. No blocking people's VOIP, no always on transmitting.. but that said, I think having included VOIP is pretty important.

Edited by Victor Morson, 11 March 2012 - 03:00 PM.

[Pht]

Agent CraZy DiP, on 09 March 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

This is probably a bad idea, but an idea none the less.

Have the Mic in-game constantly record.

... meh. Mute the mic on the computer you're playing the game on, or simply disconnect it, or throw it under a pillow or something.

Hook up ts3 on a secondary cheapo laptop to use for voip. "Fix" worked around.


3rd party voip is not a problem and is not something that could be stopped anyways.

Edited by Pht, 11 March 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[Shai tan]

"I suspect there would be much raging and foul language "

I agree, and I myself would be right up there doing alot of this. It is bad enough that game devs more or less stopped us from hosting on our own PCs, and force many to PAY for Servers and use their hosting services . Force peeps to PAY for already d/ed d/l content and nickel and dime us to death. The withholding of mod tools, the list goes on.

THE last straw would be if any dev ever forced me to use their VOIP program.... and went as far as scrambling my TeamSpeak.

How I feel about this is basicly like many in the U.S.A. would feel if they were told they no longer have the Right to bare arms. And you all know how well that`s roll.... right?

As for a gameplay idea, if I squint my eye a bit I can see how it could be a gameplay thing. But then you run into this being another thing to exploit. And anything exploitable always becomes a hated thing eventually. Cause it`ll feel cheap as hell.

Edited by shai`tan, 11 March 2012 - 06:44 PM.

[Cake Bandit]

LONG POST! There are a lot of very dated opinions in here, and I'm going to be talking mostly at them.


Outside of the competitive field, constantly reconnecting to private servers for each match is thinking on the relatively small scale of the battletech community today. Without a quality voice communications system built into the game, you might as well be shipping a high-resolution MechWarrior 4 for all the people that will actually play it. Lots and lots and lots of gamers out there are going to be new to the things that we find familiar and safe. We even have a poll thread that stands as a testament to the age-group of these forums and this community. The bulk of us are actually older fans of the series, and we need to check ourselves on some things.

The first is that We have friends. We have lots of friends who love battletech. We have lots of friends that we have gamed with for years. We have lots of friends who know which teamspeak or Ventrilo or Mumble we have used for those years of gaming. New players will have none of that. Lots of people will find our game and decide "Heck, why not?" and download it just to try it out. Joining a fast-paced, deep, mech sim in an environment where nobody will dirty their immaculate, overly-competitive hands into the waters of the in-game voice communication to say hello and coordinate with them is not going to make them want to stay around or even get their old friends to join up with strangers who should be acting like their new friends. Put down the idea that your teamspeak is inherently better because nobody can jam it and help build the community for a while. Every time the esport conversation comes up people always talk about that particular community being overly-competitive and ruining your experience, well here's a mirror because here you are.

The second thing to realize is that If you intend to use Teamspeak or anything else to overcome a challenge set in place concerning jamming, then you are planning to cheat at this game. Realize that if intercepting or jamming communications actually ends up being a part of the game, you have to play by the rules. There is not a single team in all of baseball that doesn't run the bases. It's a part of the game and everyone plays it straight. There is a reason that the pitcher and the catcher don't just wear a couple of bluetooth headsets and instead rely on a variety of hand signals for relaying pitching information. It's part of the game. It is an integral part of playing baseball, not a side-effect. There is a reason that football players don't all have in-ear communication systems and instead kick off their plays by calling them. It is again, a function of the game. If other teams are capable of cracking those codes or those systems, then good for them. They are clever. If they go outside the confines of the game and steal the other team's playbook, they're ********.

You have to understand that In other games, it doesn't matter. The game is designed around the other team not being savvy to your communications. Everything is set up with this in mind. However, if the game were designed to let you overhear the communications of the enemy team, hiding your communications behind a 3rd-party program is not just advantageous, it is also unethical. Some would even call it "Low down" or "dirty pool". It is as much cheating as is moving around your pieces when you're playing battleship. Yes, the other player may never know, but you're still a gigantic tool. Yes, people will do it, but nobody wants to play with them anyway.

The third thing we need to remember is that there are a lot of people wary about downloading superfluous programs and other things onto their computer. Especially just for the sake of playing a free game with some people from the internet who say it's totally cool. In a day and age where a large hunk of gamers, and depending on age range, gamer's parents, are terrified of malware, adware and other foulwares that they don't understand the cause of, or even what they actually do; Asking people to download a tertiary program and then connect to some bizarrely named server is going to raise a lot of eyebrows and for lots of people simply be too much work.

The fourth and final thing that a lot of people don't realize is that games have had quality built in voice systems for YEARS. They're so far from having to invent the wheel that it's not funny. This isn't the early 90's anymore. This is a standard convention that is more than expected to be native to the game itself. For a great example of how voice communications has been handled in the past just fire up Steam and download Team Fortress 2. Sure, there are plenty of unsavories, but the voice system is there, it's easy to mute people, the quality is great. Any title that is anything that the greater community will play will, and should, come with native Voice communications.

Remember, this game is NOT just for the battletech community. While you're important and knowledgable and have all sorts of years of experience, the world is changing. If you haven't played a game since quake, realize that you have a lot of catching up to do. Your input is like that of a World War I veteran issuing tactical advice about handling terrorists to modern-day generals. Your experiences and information are dated.

If you're just into gaming for the mechwarrior, then I urge you to step outside and breathe some of what the rest of gaming is stinking up. I'm not going to condemn you for coming up with the work-arounds, but I will openly say that I'm very disappointed with anyone who would reject your beloved realism or immersion in favor of holding to dated gaming traditions from the Counter Strike days.

Edited by Cake Bandit, 12 March 2012 - 02:34 AM.

[CyBerkut]

My reply to Cake Bandit's well written post is simple:

1. An in-game VOIP is indeed potentially valuable for getting diverse people working together in ad hoc drops. As far as that goes, all well and good. PGI is welcome to include it, in the interest of building the community, etc. I definitely think THAT could be helpful.

2. Despite all of your points, any inclusion of features such as listening in on opposition comms, will inspire players not to use said comms. Call it cheating if you like... since it is technically unenforceable, it will leave the possibility out there hovering in the backs of people's minds. Even if nobody uses 3rd party comms, when some team gets their butts handed to them, get ready to hear whining about the other side cheating by using 3rd party comms. If that possibility arises, it will be to the detriment of the game, as people will be turned off by it. The simple solution is to simply not go there. Include in-game VOIP if they want, but leave the eaves-dropping stuff out of there. The down-side of it is not worth it.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Its pretty simple
1) Any attempt to ban out of game VOIP will not end well.
2) Having in game VOIP is a good idea to get pubs working together. Sure you get the occasion person with turrets, but I've enjoyed it in other games I've played. It makes playing with strangers far more fun and I've even made friends this way.

[Strum Wealh]

TheRulesLawyer, on 12 March 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Any attempt to ban out of game VOIP will not end well.

Agreed.

TheRulesLawyer, on 12 March 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

Sure you get the occasion person with turrets...

Then there are the ones with coprolalia, which many associate with - and mistake for being - Tourette's...