126 replies to this topic

[Aidan]

When I was an officer in the Draconis Combine in the NetBattleTech league (aka NBT) using the MW4 Mercs game back in 2000-2001 time frame, DC was getting their butt kicked on a regular basis by the clans. Many of the clan teams loved their Nova Cats and Ares laser boats with the Extended Range Large Lasers (ERLLs). These weapons, in MW4, had a range advantage to the IS lasers and tactically the clans would just use the terrain to keep the IS force at range and then just pick them off with the ERLL weapons and take very little damage in return. But DC soon figured out that the clan laser boaters would go so far as to cut down on heat sinks and add more lasers or speed or armor to their variant. This was a mistake. All weapons and tactics have a weekness somewhere. So DC developed the "Flaming Dragon".

This "Flaming Dragon" tactic was only used on maps with high heat ratings such as desert style environments. DC would take a lance of fast moving Hunchbacks and other mechs fitted with multiple flamer weapons. It was fun to hear the snickering over TeamSpeak as DC pilots, during the first enemy encounter, learned the clan enemy was taking their beloved laser boats. From then on during the drop, the DC pilots used the terrain to manuever ever closer to the enemy. Once in close enough, the DC Drop Commander would issue the attack order. Two pairs of DC flamer mechs would team up on two of the closest clan mechs. These enemy mechs were shutdown in short order as the clan pilots expended their limited coolant and their heatsinks could not keep up due to the warm ambient temperature. The other enemy mechs were engaged by DC mechs with using a combination of ballistics and flamers useful in close quarter combat. When the first two clan mechs "popped", the 2 pairs of DC flamer mechs would move to shutdown 2 more enemy mechs.

This tactic proved to be very useful only on maps with high heat ratings. Getting close enough to the enemy was the challenge for the DC pilots. When done right, this tactic was devastating to the high energy clan mechs. When this tactic first surfaced in the NBT league, there was a tremendous outcry on the league forums by clan pilots. They said it was unfair and not fitting of a noble IS warrior ... blah blah blah.

The DCMS said, "all is fair in love and war"

Fear the Dragon !!!

Edited by Aidan, 16 March 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[TW Rapter]

Aidan, on 15 March 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

When I was an officer in the Draconis Combine in the NetBattleTech league (aka NBT) using the MW4 Mercs game back in 2000-2001 time frame, DC was getting their butt kicked on a regular basis by the clans. Many of the clan teams loved their Nova Cats and Ares laser boats with the Extended Range Large Lasers (ERLMs). These weapons, in MW4, had a range advantage to the IS lasers and tactically the clans would just use the terrain to keep the IS force at range and then just pick them off with the ERLL weapons and take very little damage in return. But DC soon figured out that the clan laser boaters would go so far as to cut down on heat sinks and add more lasers or speed or armor to their variant. This was a mistake. All weapons and tactics have a weekness somewhere. So DC developed the "Flaming Dragon".

This "Flaming Dragon" tactic was only used on maps with high heat ratings such as desert style environments. DC would take a lance of fast moving Hunchbacks and other mechs fitted with multiple flamer weapons. It was fun to hear the snickering over TeamSpeak as DC pilots, during the first enemy encounter, learned the clan enemy was taking their beloved laser boats. From then on during the drop, the DC pilots used the terrain to manuever ever closer to the enemy. Once in close enough, the DC Drop Commander would issue the attack order. Two pairs of DC flamer mechs would team up on two of the closest clan mechs. These enemy mechs were shutdown in short order as the clan pilots expended their limited coolant and their heatsinks could not keep up due to the warm ambient temperature. The other enemy mechs were engaged by DC mechs with using a combination of ballistics and flamers useful in close quarter combat. When the first two clan mechs "popped", the 2 pairs of DC flamer mechs would move to shutdown 2 more enemy mechs.

This tactic proved to be very useful only on maps with high heat ratings. Getting close enough to the enemy was the challenge for the DC pilots. When done right, this tactic was devastating to the high energy clan mechs. When this tactic first surfaced in the NBT league, there was a tremendous outcry on the league forums by clan pilots. They said it was unfair and not fitting of a noble IS warrior ... blah blah blah.

The DCMS said, "all is fair in love and war"

Fear the Dragon !!!

lol see thats what im talking about show some love for the flamers
back in the MW3 days we were hated because we caused lag everytime we attacked
i remember this one league match though me and this other guy same set up stuck on that small island just running at eachother like we were in a jousting compatition wed get one pass then have to turn around and try it again no room for any other tactics lol

Edited by TW Rapter, 15 March 2012 - 01:04 PM.

[metro]

>peekin around in here<

[Insidious Johnson]

Halfinax, on 12 March 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Well radiators don't require electrical input to work. Just a flow of the coolant liquid. Hot liquid is passed through a series of tubes with aluminum fins that dissipate the heat, and then the cooler fluid flows into the resevoir forcing the warmer fluid into the radiator. Granted a pump makes this much more efficient, but it's not like a fan that requires a power sorce to cause it's motor to spin, or a refrigerator that requires power to drive the compressor.

It could have powered cooling using nothing but change in temperature. An old steam punk trick of the stirling motor. So everytime a heatsink recieves heat, it recieves power to its stirling engine motors which power cooling pumps.
http://www.youtube.c...ature=endscreen

[docmorningstar]

Heh...

someone pointed out:

A flamer deals 2 heat to the target and 3 to the shooter.... so unless your light has MORE HS than the mech he is targetting 'infinite overheat' isn't possible....

[Dihm]

Metro, on 16 March 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

>peekin around in here<

What's a "cepter"?

[wwiiogre]

no a flamer causes three heat to target or two damage (we always did both), it also causes the mech that fired the flamer three heat as well. In table top we actually had flamers cause heat 3/2/1 for three rounds, making them more effective. But we had them have ammo which appears what PGI is going for.

chris

[NightFallsOnU]

I think one med mech might be able to pull this off and use some ACs to peck it to death.... Centurion could do it i bet

[guardian wolf]

Aidan, on 15 March 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

When I was an officer in the Draconis Combine in the NetBattleTech league (aka NBT) using the MW4 Mercs game back in 2000-2001 time frame, DC was getting their butt kicked on a regular basis by the clans. Many of the clan teams loved their Nova Cats and Ares laser boats with the Extended Range Large Lasers (ERLLs). These weapons, in MW4, had a range advantage to the IS lasers and tactically the clans would just use the terrain to keep the IS force at range and then just pick them off with the ERLL weapons and take very little damage in return. But DC soon figured out that the clan laser boaters would go so far as to cut down on heat sinks and add more lasers or speed or armor to their variant. This was a mistake. All weapons and tactics have a weekness somewhere. So DC developed the "Flaming Dragon".

This "Flaming Dragon" tactic was only used on maps with high heat ratings such as desert style environments. DC would take a lance of fast moving Hunchbacks and other mechs fitted with multiple flamer weapons. It was fun to hear the snickering over TeamSpeak as DC pilots, during the first enemy encounter, learned the clan enemy was taking their beloved laser boats. From then on during the drop, the DC pilots used the terrain to manuever ever closer to the enemy. Once in close enough, the DC Drop Commander would issue the attack order. Two pairs of DC flamer mechs would team up on two of the closest clan mechs. These enemy mechs were shutdown in short order as the clan pilots expended their limited coolant and their heatsinks could not keep up due to the warm ambient temperature. The other enemy mechs were engaged by DC mechs with using a combination of ballistics and flamers useful in close quarter combat. When the first two clan mechs "popped", the 2 pairs of DC flamer mechs would move to shutdown 2 more enemy mechs.

This tactic proved to be very useful only on maps with high heat ratings. Getting close enough to the enemy was the challenge for the DC pilots. When done right, this tactic was devastating to the high energy clan mechs. When this tactic first surfaced in the NBT league, there was a tremendous outcry on the league forums by clan pilots. They said it was unfair and not fitting of a noble IS warrior ... blah blah blah.

The DCMS said, "all is fair in love and war"

Fear the Dragon !!!

So which Clan was that, though you wouldn't have gone against my binary and I, (different league, more local) we usually tended to either bring the more heatsinks for high energy boats, or, we down the heatsinks for more ammo based loadouts.

[CyberCrist]

frostfly, on 10 March 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

No, and here's why. Flamers in game have the option of increasing the opposing mechs heat by 2 points. How many flamers can you fit on a light mech...and just to make it fun,each one increased the heat of the firing mech by 3. Odds are the atlas has more Heatsinks then a light mech...so light mech will overheat and shut down...and the atlas will stand up and blast him with the AC.

Bad hypothetical is bad.

Yeah, but you could use a squad\platoon of light mechs

[Hayashi]

I think it depends on what your target is. If we're talking about say, a Nova Cat, Awesome, PPC variant of an Atlas or other heavily energy based 'Mechs, it shouldn't be possible to keep them shut down, since their heat sinks should be capable of dissipating the heat fast enough. However, if we're talking about a primarily ballistic/missile variant of an Atlas (say, 2 AC/20), an UrbanMech or a Catapult, then it should be possible to keep them shut down indefinitely and/or blow them up.

The keys to me are:

1. Heat generated by Flamers relative to heat dissipation capabilities of target
2. Heat generated by Flamers relative to heat dissipation capabilities of the Flamer 'Mech

If the Flamer 'Mech can dissipate heat much faster than the target 'Mech, and the number of flamers on that 'Mech is capable of heating up the target 'Mech much faster than it can dissipate the heat, then we should be able to blow up the target 'Mech. If not, then all that loadout will do is greatly annoy the target.

The fact that not everyone would go with a heat sink-devoid 'Mech setup would make this Flamer setup effective only on, say, 60-70% of 'Mechs. Not to mention that the remaining 30% can completely pound the Flamer 'Mech into the ground due to its lack of any other efficient weapons.

So yes, this ability should be left as a possibility. Though I doubt it will see much action.

===

Off-topic. As the OP named the title I would have to say no, since a Flamer weapon isn't enough. If we're talking a whole bunch of Flamer weapons though...

[Frozen Spirit Jac]

Maybe if the flamers where directed at particular objects on the shutdown mech, example LRM on RIght shoulder or ac on arm, for a period of time, destroying not the whole mech itself but parts of it. like old mech2 when mechs became crippled. A focus point if you may. Kind like the old Locust Wars...

[StompyMcGee]

My understanding of this game is that it's mostly team vs team. So if you're the heat crippled Atlas, you'd best hope you've been nice to all your team mates, and they're not just going to leave you to get all toastied.

[Kifferson von doober]

I'd go for delaying restart but not keeping it down indefinately, the scout would have to scram pretty quick!
Anybody know if you can load inferno missiles?

[Jahooley]

when shut down the atlas should be losing heat pretty fast, and i dont think a single scout mech would be able to produce more heat than the atlas could lose while shut down. i think it would be ok for 3 or 4 mechs with flamer orientated loadouts to keep an atlas shut down in terms of balancing.

flames should be used as a counter to lazer loadouts so that they overheat from weapons fire faster, so they have to limit their weapons fire, or risk shutting down for a short while, not to keep a shut down mech offline permanently.

Edited by Jahooley, 27 March 2012 - 03:50 AM.

[Soviet Alex]

It should be theroretically possible. Good luck making it work in a 12v12 battle.

[Digital Ninja]

If the atlas makes a mistake and overheats it should have consequences. I'm not sure if the scout could actually do this, but there shouldn't be anything to artificially prevent it.

Edited by Digital Ninja, 27 March 2012 - 05:58 AM.

[Kael Tropheus]

Uhh duh, yes. If a mech pilot is dumb enough to overheat his mech and shut down, he gets what he deserves. In theory though he will have buddies around to keep this from happening.

Unless that mech has alot of flamers I cant see it causing enough heat to do this though. I forget the heat sink loadout on an Atlas but its likely more than the ability of the scout to produce. Hopefully overheating however will have the possible effect of ammo explosion like in the TT.

Edited by Kael Tropheus, 27 March 2012 - 07:00 AM.

[kidneynabrik]

The only reasonable way I see this working is if:

• The ATLAS shuts down during the course of the battle due to heat buildup from weapons and being hit by (the) FLAMER.
  
• The flamer runs out of coolant near or at point blank range and overheats and his fuel onboard detonates.
  
• The pooling of napalm from the detonated fuel surrounds the two mechs, thus potentially killing (the) FLAMER and the ATLAS together due to the extreme buildup of heat and flame. Only if they don't escape in time.

No, I do not believe that a flamer should be capable of perpetual shutdown, but, I do believe that the flamer should be able to bring him to the shut down point (w/ the other mech having heat buildup as well), but at the cost of the other mech being at 75-90% from overheating as well.

Also, (the) FLAMER would consist of no less than 2 flamer hard points for this to work this way. Otherwise, it's a shoddy tactic because that it isn't plausible in reality based on how fire and heat works (coming from a Navy Firefighter).

Edited by kidneynabrik, 27 March 2012 - 07:50 AM.

[William Petersen]

Caballo, on 11 March 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

I think you're wrong, and here's why:

You didn't take in account the fact that the atlas was ALREADY overheated and ALREADY shut down and the attacker don't.

This means the atlas have to dissipate some of it's heat before restarting up. If the flamer heats up the atlas any number of Cº, it will need the time to dissipate that heat, plus the one that comes from it's original overheat. Unless it's got a big bunch of sinks (and in that case it shouldn't overheated itself, but that's just an assumption, the pilot would've made a mistake or just needed to perform an alpha... who knows), the odds are on an ammo explosion.

AAAAAAAAnyway, not as hard core as Scav went, but a little lighter, my idea of the flamers is the following: They should be a persistent mosquito, but not a bullet to the brain, as they become in MW4.

That's stupid.


AS7-D Atlas is at, let's say, 30 heat. He miraculously survived all ammo explosion checks, and got himself up to a forced shut down anyway.

Let's assume he has 0 engine crits taken, which, if he did, would suggest his CT was exposed (or he took a very unlucky TAC or two) and was moments away from destruction anyway).

Now let's assume our offender is a Firestarter, since that's the only mech I know offhand who mounts more than one or two flamers. Let's hypothetically modify said Firestarter so the 4th flamer is forward-facing, and add 4 heat sinks so it can fire all flamers and run and remain heat neutral.

Now, the firsestarter is capable of inflicting *8* heat per turn on the atlas. The atlas sinks 20 per turn.

So instead of restarting in 1 turn (30-20=10 < 14 = start up), it restarts in 2 (30-20+8=18-20+8 = 6 <14 = start up).

Let me also point out that, aside from these flamers, the firsestarter in question has practically no other armament of consequence. Let's also point out that said firestarter also must maintain a close distance to the Atlas, so he should be a bit easier to hit and his movement much more predictable.

Admittedly, against a mech with only 10 heatsinks, yes, 8 heat per turn IS significant and will keep the mech in question shut down for much longer, but that wasn't the hypothetical. And still doesn't negate the incredible disadvantage of bringing along a mech equipped specifically to take advantage of an enemy screwing up and letting himself overheat.

Bad hypothetical is, in fact, bad.


As to the idea of changing flamer rules so that they *do* allow a mech to keep another shut down, I don't see the need, no.