126 replies to this topic

[Semyon Drakon]

Honestly in Canon you'd walk over, knock the mech down then skull stomp it until the pilot was a wet throwrug...

Set a mech on fire and it'll heat up, they do burn if you get them hot enough and if you are truly smart you knock them down, rip the armour off and dump thier ammo bins full of napalm.

Boom, dead, come again

Semyon

[MarauderDeuce]

Alright - answer in 2 parts.

I voted yes based on the opinion that if it is reasonable in the game then it should be doable. If the mechanics allow it and the player is willing to min-max to do it then let them take the chance and reap the possible rewards.

From memory from the books the impact of flamers was as much psychological as it was the actual risk to the mech of over-heating or of munitions cooking-off. I don't know if that psychological effect can be recreated but I think the chance would be good.

Equally I agree with Semyon Drakon in that if I was in said mech and managed to shut the atlas down I'd want to do more than just rely on my flamers. If the mech was upright I'd want to knock it down if possible (unlikely I guess) and if it's fallen I'd be looking to boot the atlas' head in.

Random RP though - as someone who is planning to play Clan, I wonder whether kicking an atlas' head in using a light mech would be considered dishonorable or not. Please assume that whatever circumstances have been met to make the Atlas a viable target for me.

[Blue Shadow]

Yes...*snicker* hehe I was planning on using a flamer or two in this game, but more of a defensive weapon to shutdown those that get too close then run away to continue long range shooting. I think with persistent flamer attacks just one flamer should be all that's needed to "tip the balance" and shut down an enemy, although the enemy would have to be shooting guns for the flamer to force a shut down within any sort of reasonable time.

[Dlardrageth]

2 Flamers, not one. Allowing one flamer to do that job makes it a bit overpowered. Having 2 Flamers (either on one Mech or two different ones) focused on the Atlas in the example could do the job, though. After all, did someone force the Atlas pilot to NOT upgrade his heatsinks (in particular with an AS7-K variant, which is quite vulnerable to overheating)? Noone did, but still he didn't upgrade? Well, okay, then it's time to pay for that. If his enemy was smart enough to customize and mount two flamers on his, say, SDR-7M Spider, and thus can keep inefficient builds which are badly played locked down, then more power to him, I say!

Let's face it - without infantry in game, the Flamer's usabaility is somewhat limited. You can opt to have it turned into a LOL-weapon whose only role is to set woods on fire. Or you can opt for it being OP and able to lock down a given Mech with only one permanent salvo. Which, as long as that targeted Mech is undamaged, seems a bit too powerful.

Locking the enemy completely down like the OP described with only 1 Flamer should be possible only under certain special conditions:

• Target Mech is damaged and has already sustained an engine hit or loss of heat sinks (=lowered heat efficiency).
  
• Planetary conditions that make heat issues more important (daylight desert, Mech standing in a hot caldera e.g.).
  
• Combination with lingering heat effects (Target got/gets hit by infernos before e.g.).

In those cases, even if it is just the loss of one heatsink from the standard complement of 10 on a given Mech, it should work (not on an arctic planet though, obviously). Other than that, a single flamer should slow the Atlas in the example down, meaning it should take longer to get back to normal heat levels from a shutdown state, but this single flamer should not be able to keep him shut down indefinitely.

It's a basic risk vs. reward balancing here. You need to give people some incentive to actually "risk" mounting flamers. You want a system where the smart user of a flamer can be rewarded, not where it can turn into an "I win"-button, no matter what.

Edited by Dlardrageth, 11 March 2012 - 05:10 AM.

[Reno Blade]

frostfly, on 10 March 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

No, and here's why. Flamers in game have the option of increasing the opposing mechs heat by 2 points. How many flamers can you fit on a light mech...and just to make it fun,each one increased the heat of the firing mech by 3. Odds are the atlas has more Heatsinks then a light mech...so light mech will overheat and shut down...and the atlas will stand up and blast him with the AC.

Bad hypothetical is bad.

Fire in the TT was never as dangerous as in the novels.
Inferno rockets never roasted the mechwarrior, neither did the flamer. Both weapons were discribed realy dangerous in the novels.

I never understood how heatsinks would work without the power of the reactor. they are not simple copper lamellas like passive grafic card coolers. I would expect them to work slower without power (like the fridge doesnt work without the cable, or the CPU fan is not working without the power).
This would mean, the flamer who isnt as dangerous while powered up, could be a real threat when you are shut down. (If the HS are slower while shut down)

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

As it was mentioned already, tabletop rules have it that the attacking mech suffers more heat from firing flamers than the one being attacked. 3 versus 2. Heating up the enemy mech is just a pleasant bonus, not a way to make all heavy mechs unreasonably useless against some Firestarter. You will overheat yourself first. Still flamer's effect is a nice and very useful feature if you use it smart.

Reno Blade, on 11 March 2012 - 04:18 AM, said:

I never understood how heatsinks would work without the power of the reactor. they are not simple copper lamellas like passive grafic card coolers. I would expect them to work slower without power (like the fridge doesnt work without the cable, or the CPU fan is not working without the power).
This would mean, the flamer who isnt as dangerous while powered up, could be a real threat when you are shut down. (If the HS are slower while shut down)

That's tricky, but I guess they still may have some alternative power source or passive power. When the reactor is shut down it stops producing that much heat which can make hs even work a bit better in shutdown. If they are not reactor-powered

Edited by Duncan Jr Fischer, 11 March 2012 - 04:58 AM.

[Polymorphyne]

The Atlas pilot can just override shutdown, flush a crapload of coolant and shoot the light mech.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

If a mech is shutdown from overheating just kill it - an AC20 to the head is perfectly adequate for any mech, even an Atlas.

[Volume]

Can't vote on this because nothing has been said about manual coolant flush or equipping coolant pods, and heat buildup in the gameplay trailer looked to be very high already.

I feel that one flamer is a bit ridiculous to keep a 'Mech in an infinite stunlock. Maybe two flamers could extend the duration of the shutdown for a few seconds, but depending on how long shutdowns would already be, that alone could be too much.

I'd just take the TT numbers and have flamers affect shutdown length by affecting heat (assuming shutdown length is related to heat level, and not some arbitrary number like 7 seconds).

Else I don't think flamers alone should be able to control a 'Mech for that long alone.

[Jeager51]

Very unlikely but if you can manage it, then yeah. Though others have mentioned it, you would need multiple flamers, and the abilty to use them constantly without over heating yourself. SO you would most likely need a Flamer heavy Medium or Heavy mech to pull it off....though you could.

[Elizander]

You'd need around 5 flamers just to offset the normal heat sinks. I don't see this happening unless the guy keeps mashing his ERPPC while aiming at the sky.

Flamers right after an energy boat Alpha is good timing and should shut a mech down. I don't think it can keep a mech shut down indefinitely if the mech is not firing anything.

[Artifice]

If the heat sinks can't deal with the heat, then hells yeah!

Image a desert environment, 70% heat efficiency perhaps. The Atlas maybe messed around with heat sinks and uses only ammo weapons, expecting the hot environment. The scout comes up behind and gives him an arse full of plasma. Too bad, guy - your Atlas is toast, eventually. You'd better hope your lancemates are just over the rise.

This should be a real tactic, we know it's effective - and the game will win by having it implemented.

[BlueFish]

What about infernos? a light mech like a commando would be a energy boat's worst nightmare with infernos instead of standard srms

[WV Betrayer]

1. The question preposes a situation where the Atlas is alone and nothing is firing at the scout.
2. It assumes the scout has flamers that can keep the cycle on the Atlas in a negative (to destruction) or perpetual heat shut down loop
3. Also assumes the Atlas had such a poor design to allow 2 to happen

So under the last man standing rule, and the only two mechs left standing are an Atlas with poor design, and an Scout mech that was essentially one dimensional created only for this purpose... sure... anybody that does bad mech design deserves whatever comes to them.

So backup question then... should the ammo explosion on an atlas be powerful enough to take out a scout who is close enough to flame him to death? And if not, could the Atlas just fall on the scout as a backup plan anyhow and be done with this ridiculous question?

[Star Captain Obvious Kerensky]

maybe it it takes 1 flamer, maybe it takes 6. either way if a flamer cannot force a mech to shutdown its a pointless weapon. The entire point of the flamer is to heat up mechs until they shutdown.

[Caballo]

WV Betrayer, on 11 March 2012 - 06:16 AM, said:

So backup question then... should the ammo explosion on an atlas be powerful enough to take out a scout who is close enough to flame him to death? And if not, could the Atlas just fall on the scout as a backup plan anyhow and be done with this ridiculous question?

Nice one.

[gryphos]

I made it in MW4 Vengeance, it's very tricky and funny, but if you do this you will have a lotof variables to do.

Good Hunting

[CobaltRaptor]

I doubt a Single flamer could shutdown lock an Atlas, However many flamers probably could, in fact it could probaly cause the atlas to have whats left of its ammo cook off. That would be logical and funny as hell, however it would likley require multiple flamers. As such i voted other, because while it is possible, it is unlikely with a single flamer.

[Bluey]

It is possible but also proves Atlas pilot needs to learn balanced weapon loadout
If He uses his atlas with full of lasers give him Bright Slap to remind him value of loadout

[Toothman]

If you are outrunning your team in your atlas you deserve to die to a scout mech.