71 replies to this topic

[Helmer]

+1 . I hadn't noticed the compass didn't have bearings, and assumed it did (And assuming definitely did its job to me)

Absolute must.


GREAT catch Stalker.

Edited by Helmer, 18 March 2012 - 02:22 AM.

[Cyote13]

Additional selectable choices are always welcome, up to the point that developing them and implementing them means we loose a mech or map due to the time spent on the optional compass settings.

And really? you are going to tell your teammates to go exactly 242 degrees for 200m then come to a bearing of 167.....really? I don't expect the terrain is going to allow you guys to do much in the way of precision piloting.

And remember that when you give a direction to something you spotted the further your friends are from you the more the direct bearing for them will be off. If I am 800 m from a tree I see move, and tell you it is directly at my 45 degrees, if you are just a couple hundred meters to my side, it may be 20 or 30 degrees off of 45 for you. It is generally going to be easier to call out a grid location from the minimap and let everyone orient themselves off of that. KISS is always a good principle to keep in mind, even for controls and HUDs.

[MrDred]

Bearings on the compass require no major wizardy to be implemented. And if you call out "Vulture at 48 degrees", that helps... a lot more than "Vulture at grid coordinates X,Y". It will be off, but that doesn't really matter, because now your buddy is looking in the right direction at least. My experience is this really works, especially if travelling in groups. Its a great help and should only require minimal efford for implementation.

Edited by MrDred, 18 March 2012 - 02:45 AM.

[StaIker]

Quote

And really? you are going to tell your teammates to go exactly 242 degrees for 200m then come to a bearing of 167.....really?

Yes. It's SOP for any team practiced in fire and movement.

[Wyzak]

This is a really good idea. Pretty sure the only reason we have not seen it yet is because the game is in alpha and they have not had time to add some of the expected HUD features.

[Belisarius1]

Cyote13, on 18 March 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

And really? you are going to tell your teammates to go exactly 242 degrees for 200m then come to a bearing of 167.....really? I don't expect the terrain is going to allow you guys to do much in the way of precision piloting.

He absolutely is. He's also going to call enemy contacts based on bearing and range. So will anyone attempting to coordinate a large team. This isn't some gimmick addition that adds to clutter, that you don't really need. I would take this on my HUD over weapon and speed readouts, if you made me choose.

Edited by Belisarius†, 18 March 2012 - 03:29 AM.

[Cyote13]

Ok, that's cool, as an old mech Infantry guy I guess my habits of calling out off the clock will have to adapt to whomever I am dropping with.

[GD26]

You don’t need any indication of your torso’s position to be honest. You have the cockpit view for that after all. All you need is Torso to Legs and Legs to Torso commands. On Mechs, the compass is attuned to the position/facing of the legs.

For a while back, I posted a thread addressing HUD compatibility and layout for the upcoming MWO. In spite of over 70 views, no one cared to reply! I also addressed the matter in Community Questions 5. No answer there either.
For those of you interested,here is the thread.

Quote

And remember that when you give a direction to something you spotted the further your friends are from you the more the direct bearing for them will be off. If I am 800 m from a tree I see move, and tell you it is directly at my 45 degrees, if you are just a couple hundred meters to my side, it may be 20 or 30 degrees off of 45 for you. It is generally going to be easier to call out a grid location from the minimap and let everyone orient themselves off of that. KISS is always a good principle to keep in mind, even for controls and HUDs. - Cyote13

I’d suggest reading my take on the issue at the link provided above. We don’t need cardinal points at all. Only a 360 degrees digital compass.
However, we’ll have numbered grid-squares which will help a lot.

[KhanRad]

I also agree with this change. Using numerical bearings were critical to team movement on MW4 maps.

Edited by KhanRad, 18 March 2012 - 04:33 AM.

[StaIker]

I read your post a while back GD26 but I'll admit to being slightly confused by what you are saying. Can you post an update to your thread with a picture that makes it clear?

I also agree that we need a 360 degree digital compass, but one battle at a time.

[Aegis Kleais]

If the lance/element leader can set waypoints, that pretty much sets the 0 degree bearing for the lance to move in. I'm no opponent to more info on the HUD but it needs to be vital and then presented in a clear manner at all times.

[StaIker]

The waypoint is not marked with a digital bearing either though, it's still +/- several degrees and that is more than enough to generate collisions in a tight formation as people cross each others paths. Also, because it's a focal point and not a bearing it will cause mechs to bunch up the closer they get to it until they are shoulder to shoulder. Those things are bad.

[darkviper]

I am guessing Stalker is the one we ran with / against back in NBT. Good to see your views on team work again.

Good to see you again.

[StaIker]

Heya DV. I see the boys (and some girls) are gearing up for this too.

[darkviper]

Hell yeh. We wont miss this for all the Newkies on Herostos

Look forward to meeting you and your team on the field again.

[Specter]

Cyote13, on 18 March 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

And really? you are going to tell your teammates to go exactly 242 degrees for 200m then come to a bearing of 167.....really?

Absolutely, this was standard operating protocol for the Avatar Knights as well as many other competitive teams. It was not unusual for us to field 8 mechs and from the front of the formation to the back was only 150m. Nothing is worse when playing in competitive team combat than the front of your formation running headlong into the enemy lance and all 8 of the enemy teams mechs see you, whereas only 3 of your teams mechs are in range to support because you are spread out across the map too far. An exact bearing and speed would be called to ensure that no collisions would occure or need to worry about one mech running over the guy in front of him while scanning for targets on the flanks.

[darkviper]

Specter, on 18 March 2012 - 06:49 AM, said:

Absolutely, this was standard operating protocol for the Avatar Knights as well as many other competitive teams. It was not unusual for us to field 8 mechs and from the front of the formation to the back was only 150m. Nothing is worse when playing in competitive team combat than the front of your formation running headlong into the enemy lance and all 8 of the enemy teams mechs see you, whereas only 3 of your teams mechs are in range to support because you are spread out across the map too far. An exact bearing and speed would be called to ensure that no collisions would occure or need to worry about one mech running over the guy in front of him while scanning for targets on the flanks.

I agree. Stalker helped our formation fighting heaps during his time with us. It was good to have a "Nameless" drop commander wander with in range of our entire team to be one shotted while the rest of his team panic and scatter.

Ahh good times

[Outlaw2]

DRevD, on 17 March 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Stalker's suggestion is how the compass needs to be done. Its loads more useful for team coordination than whats shown in the videos currently.

This, bump it.

Its really a small addition, but makes a huge difference.

[thebraddigan]

This (link), in my opinion is a perfect implementation of a compass with compass numbered bearings. This example is from the Project Reality mod for BF2 that has gameplay focused completely on teamwork. If you've played PR you'll know that it's used constantly, and is invaluably useful- almost on par with voice communication.

The PR compass keeps the cardinal and ordinal directions, but numbers the 15th degrees between them. From the 300+ hours of personal use of this, I have to say that it's spot-on for usability- not numbered too little, (which would mean having to count and calculate) and at the same time not numbered too often, which would make it unnecessarily cramped with numbers to an accuracy that's not required (if you're looking within 15 degrees of something they are practically in the centre of your screen).

I like that the OP's mockup has the exact bearings in a small poput box, but it really needs the numbers along the width of the compass too, so that the reciver of the bearing information knows at a glace where to rotate to, not just the guy calling out the number. What do you think of these changes?

I think I'll make a mockup myself.

Edited by thebraddigan, 18 March 2012 - 10:53 AM.

[Helmer]

Cyote13, on 18 March 2012 - 02:22 AM, said:

Additional selectable choices are always welcome, up to the point that developing them and implementing them means we loose a mech or map due to the time spent on the optional compass settings.

And really? you are going to tell your teammates to go exactly 242 degrees for 200m then come to a bearing of 167.....really? I don't expect the terrain is going to allow you guys to do much in the way of precision piloting.

And remember that when you give a direction to something you spotted the further your friends are from you the more the direct bearing for them will be off. If I am 800 m from a tree I see move, and tell you it is directly at my 45 degrees, if you are just a couple hundred meters to my side, it may be 20 or 30 degrees off of 45 for you. It is generally going to be easier to call out a grid location from the minimap and let everyone orient themselves off of that. KISS is always a good principle to keep in mind, even for controls and HUDs.

I'm glad you posted this . I started to think about it , and although I believe compass headings would be useful , I'd agree that after playing MWLL map and grid coordinates are very useful .

I've played an obscene amount of ARMA2 with a core group of guys . And I cannot stress how important compass bearings are important to that Sim.
However , apon reflection , I can see how it's comparing apples to oranges . In ARMA2 you are usually moving tactically as a small group with a common destination . Having compass bearings helps eleviate the non specific statements IE " Contact , guys to our right...ish" to something specific .
Not saying you cannot use compass bearings , however due to the nature of the simulator , you have a HUD, targeting computers marking targets etc etc. As well as the fact that it seems like moving as one group is usually not the norm.

Great catch and I'd agree with the OP and Cyote13 , compass bearings will be a nice addition however I can see using grid coordinates , waypoints and keypad numbers ( once you get used to such a system ) being just as useful if not more so.