24 replies to this topic

[Firereign]

Immersion. It makes such a massive difference to a game experience. A game can have superb gameplay, a great interface, great balance, but at the end of the day, immersion is what makes some games so special. When you feel like you're truly in the game, when you ARE the character in the game, not just someone controlling them, you will enjoy the game that much more. A lack of it, on the other hand, makes other games far less enjoyable to play.

I'll be honest. MWO is crap when it comes to its immersion factor. I feel completely disconnected from the game. When I play MWO, I should feel like I'm piloting a giant, two legged death machine. I don't. This became particularly apparent when I got to play a-certain-other-mech-game-that-shall-go-unnamed for the first time, in which I feel I'm actually piloting a mech.

There are two problems here: visuals and sound. I'll start with visuals.


When I say 'visuals', I'm not just taking about texture detail and graphical fidelity. Just like Crysis, games can be very technically impressive with incredible detail, but can still lack an interesting and immersive environment.


First off, as suggested above, there's the environments themselves. They're bland. Really bland. I remember the layout of every map, and that's it. And it's not just the fact that they're uninteresting, they don't react to player interaction at all. When my mech steps on a vehicle in Rivet City, it should be squashed. When I blast a skyscraper with an AC/20, it should blow a chunk out of it.

Those interactions apply to the mechs themselves. There is absolutely no visual indicator of damage to a mech, other than smoke coming from a destroyed body part. When I hit it with a laser, I should see armour melting off. When I hit it with a slug weighing a sixth of a ton, I should see it blast a chunk out of the enemy mech. As the armour on a mech becomes damaged, you should be able to visually see damage to it. Similarly, when the armour's destroyed, it should come off entirely and you should be able to see the internal components underneath it. Ammo and component explosions should be visible, as should core destruction; I want to see it tear a hole in the mech with a big fireball coming off it. And when the enemy mech fires his autocannon back at me, I should see the shells being ejected.

It works both ways. I have no real feeling of my mech taking damage. The cockpit should become scratched and eventually crack as damage is taken. I should recoil when I fire a ballistic, or when I'm hit by one.

Also, it makes no sense for the cockpit to visibly move around when walking, but the viewpoint doesn't. This becomes even more ridiculous when I look down and see my arms, legs and seat moving. I'm not suggesting that your view should shake so violently that you can't hit anything not point blank when moving, but my head should actually move around when my mech does. Also, my viewpoint appears to be too far forwards, it'd feel more immersive if the cockpit took up more of my view (that would also bring real purpose to the screens dotted around, if the devs ever actually use them).


And then we come to sound. Many people don't seem to understand how important sound is for an immersive experience. It's absolutely as important as visuals. Playing a game with great sound (for example, the Battlefield games) through a good sound setup sounds absolutely amazing, and goes such a long way towards making me feel like I'm in the game, not playing the game.

And the sound in MWO is even more dismal than the visuals. It's awful. Laser sounds have been improved recently, but there is so much more to be done.

Ballistics need to sound terrifying. When I fire an AC/20, it should sound like a 14-ton cannon firing a 1/6 ton slug, not like an average rifle. There should be a loud, very deep explosion as it's fired. All of the ballistics carry the same problem, possibly excluding the AC/5, which does sound good but suffers from another problem entirely - it sounds nothing like a ballistic weapon. Then you have the recycle sounds. It seems the same sound is used for each weapon, which is totally wrong when the smaller autocannons recycle before the sound actually plays. It's also nowhere near loud enough. I should be able to hear the loading system ejecting the old shell, and slotting a new one into place, even in the heat of combat with explosions going off around me. I should hear those shells landing on the ground. Each AC should have a different sound played at an appropriate time (i.e. before I can fire the damn thing again).

The sounds for lasers and missiles are better, but could still be improved. I should hear the capacitors in the lasers buzz as they charge. Missiles need to be louder, and with a deeper sound, when they launch.

And then of course there's the sounds going on around me. I want to hear the explosions going on around me. I want to hear my armour being vapourised. I want to hear that Gauss Rifle exploding when my RT goes. I want to hear the environment reacting to my missed shots. I want to hear my footsteps flattening whatever I walk over, and displacing water when I walk through a river.


There's still more than enough time to fix all of this. It won't take a huge amount of effort to improve the sounds significantly, and visuals shouldn't be too hard to improve. We need to make our voices heard about this, as immersion often becomes a non-priority next to balancing and additional content. It shouldn't be. People aren't going to play this game if they aren't enjoying it, and if they feel totally immersed, they'll enjoy it all the more.

So, that's my opinion. What do you guys think?


tl;dr: No, just leave if you're not going to read the whole post, this isn't something that can be said in a paragraph.

[CeeKay Boques]

Immersion is number one for me, and I think that simulation is the road to it.

That said:

"Minimum Viable Product"

Immersion for President 2013!

Edited by Technoviking, 05 October 2012 - 12:50 PM.

[TommyAtkins]

I think you brought up some great points for the devs to work on for details in the game, though I have to say I'm not in total agreeance with you on some points, but this'll probably just come down to a matter of how much immersion we expect from a game.

When I say 'visuals', I'm not just taking about texture detail and graphical fidelity. Just like Crysis, games can be very technically impressive with incredible detail, but can still lack an interesting and immersive environment. I'll follow your paragraphs for clarity

The environments themselves. I've been happy to notice some environmental reaction. Shoot the snow wiht a lazer and you get a whiter "snow melt" look. Other than that though, yes the envrironments could really be more interactive I can understand not wanting to take too much of the game engine away from the mechs themselves- but I've always loved the art of a mech hiding in a blown out section of buiding or walking through a building like the giant walking tanks that they are. More environmental reaction would be nice, snow/dirt kicked up from ballistic fire, footprints in the snow, damage to buildings would be nice.

The mechs. I've seen some damage to sections that aren't destroyed. Admittetly it looks like only the paint has been torn away to leave shiney metal, but yeah seeing them react with ammo, and especially ammo explosions. I think too much damage detail is a waste and not very realistic. I've never seen a damaged mech in real life, but looking at what I've seen of armored vehicles, often you end up with a spectacular explosion or almost nothing, but either way the armor isn't shredded off. There are some dings and dents and then the hole that made the kill, not tanks limping along with their engines half hanging out.

Weapon recoil- I get your point, but my vote is no recoil for lazer weapons, or for arm weapons as the arm should be able to soak up the recoil.

Cockpits
I'm totally against your opinion of cockpit damage though. The cockpit should only show damage when my cockpit is hit. In that event though, yes, cracked screens and a freezed up hud so you're measuring heat and radar by the seat of your pants would be great. At the present though I get hit with a barrage of missiles and my screen is often covered with smoke and red making things hard enough to see as is so I wouldn't go crazy on additional cockpit effects.
Yeah, having a moving cockpit and the terrain not move is kind of awkward. I like the different cockpit layouts and while some should be visually restrictive, think of other mechs like the madcat which has a cockpit that would have far more field of view than others.

Audio- sound diversity for weapons would be a plus, but I personally don't need the sound cranked up to 11. Sure the 14 ton cannon is loud. I can only image that the cockpits are addequitely sound dampened to make sure mech pilots can funtion without their ears bleeding and their organs rupturing from the vibrations let alone communicate with each other. Think of the noise canceling and filtering technlogy avialable. Sure these things would sound truely awesome and terrible if you were a groundpounder looking on, but the opperator in the mech (i.e. all the players of the game) would be spared the effect.

Could the game benefit from additional immersion? Yes. I don't think it'll stop people from playing if it is fun though. See Angry Birds for an example of that.

[Filinger]

Firereign, on 05 October 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

Also, my viewpoint appears to be too far forwards, it'd feel more immersive if the cockpit took up more of my view (that would also bring real purpose to the screens dotted around, if the devs ever actually use them).

Totally agree. It's like they try to convince you that you're playing a mech. But you are not - you are playing PILOT!
I want to see and/or hear some pilot reactions to what is going on with him and his mech! Maybe even some animations for manual shutdown/overheat events, UAC jamming, very hard hit, etc.

[Jukebox1986]

Firereign, on 05 October 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

I'll be honest. MWO is crap when it comes to its immersion factor. I feel completely disconnected from the game. When I play MWO, I should feel like I'm piloting a giant, two legged death machine. I don't. This became particularly apparent when I got to play a-certain-other-mech-game-that-shall-go-unnamed for the first time, in which I feel I'm actually piloting a mech.

I might be alone with this, but i really feel like im in a stompy big hunk of metal. The base to a good immersion is given.

Firereign, on 05 October 2012 - 12:38 PM, said:

There are two problems here: visuals and sound. I'll start with visuals.

Visuals are a little problem. but not, because i dont like the look, but i feel like there has to be destruction of the environment. If i walk into a tiny building with an atlas i want to see the destruction - same as you. But i dont like superfancy environment, its not needed anyway! I look at the mechs while fighting, not at the scenery.

Sound... is important. Im a musician myself, so i want fitting music. Stompy march music, for example.

But i would turn it off, after a while. I dont like Music in the cockpit while playingwith my unit. Its counterproductive! I dont hear my teammates, i dont hear the footsteps of other mechs (thats really important) and i dont hear the weaponshots. Im not sure about this point at all...

[Loc Nar]

Real joystick support. It's time, guys... kbm is not immersive. At all. I was shocked this was/is considered an acceptable option, and saddened that it has persisted this long. Also disappointed with the general acceptance of this scenario. Kbm? in a sim? Gah!

Going deeper down the rabbit hole, immersion is hugely important to me, but for me it will come with cockpit builder support that allows us to build believable cockpits/full blown pods, not so much from tweaks to subjective artistic interpretations of things that are not real to begin with, although those details have influence. I think PGI is so far doing great with visuals and audio so far though, and clearly they have plans to enhance and expand in this department so I'm confident that this will be continually improved and refined to perfection.

I'm more concerned with the fate of us cockpit builders, and what will ultimately be able to be achieved by the best of our efforts. Until the cockpit controls and interface (moving maps/HUD, damage/weapon screens, etc) can be mapped to external displays/controls and the screen cockpit undocked, MWO is pretty much an arcade game with a nod to simulation. It's pretty distracting to look at a cockpit from the view of your cockpit, and until the information displayed in the screenpit can be externally mapped it is still needed for situational awareness.

I'm sure the implementation of this would be quite difficult though, since there are likely a lot of ways it could be exploited by cheaters; and the Artemis looming on the horizon likely makes the issue more complicated, so I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime, I keep slogging away on my mechpit, to achieve the most immersion that I know how to extract with the given parameters: http://mwomercs.com/...440-my-mechpit/

Loc

ps. take a trip to Universal Studios and go on the Transformers ride if you want to see just how intense immersion can get with properly coordinated technology...

[Harrison Kelly]

I agree that the immersion factor of this game is pretty weak.

1) No metagame currently exists. It'll feel different when I'm defending some Fed Sun world from vicious Cappies who we've been told are the 31st-century version of the Mongol Horde. Right now, why am I even in the Caustic Valley? Oh that's right, to grind out that CPLT-C4

2) The audio/visual for every weapon that's not a laser or missile is super-unimpressive. The Gauss in my opinion is the most lacking. It looks like the MC1 Gauss and sounds like the MC2 one, which is to say, not very distinctive. It's a generic blue bolt of d00m with a mild "phew". I want to hear some "boom" and see some more distinctive visual patterns.

PPCs, what little I've seen of them, don't seem to crackle, and the particle looks almost exactly the same as MW4's, when there's all kinds of little effects that could be done to make them really look menacing. The sound's weak on this too.

The Flamethrower doesn't much sound like it sets things on fire. It barely looks like it too.

3) Can't wait until trees have collision properties. As crappy of a game as MechAssault was, you could blow up the environment and the weapons had some real kick/sound to them.

Edited by Harrison Kelly, 05 October 2012 - 02:24 PM.

[Firereign]

TommyAtkins, on 05 October 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

The environments themselves. I've been happy to notice some environmental reaction. Shoot the snow wiht a lazer and you get a whiter "snow melt" look. Other than that though, yes the envrironments could really be more interactive I can understand not wanting to take too much of the game engine away from the mechs themselves- but I've always loved the art of a mech hiding in a blown out section of buiding or walking through a building like the giant walking tanks that they are. More environmental reaction would be nice, snow/dirt kicked up from ballistic fire, footprints in the snow, damage to buildings would be nice.

Environmental destruction would be an awesome feature to be implemented but would also require a lot of effort on the behalf of the devs. If they can do it, then I say they should. However, it'd still be nice if there were things such as lasting bullet holes and shell holes, laser marks, and some objects that you can interact further with (e.g. maybe setting trees on fire or moving vehicles around)

TommyAtkins, on 05 October 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

The mechs. I've seen some damage to sections that aren't destroyed. Admittetly it looks like only the paint has been torn away to leave shiney metal, but yeah seeing them react with ammo, and especially ammo explosions. I think too much damage detail is a waste and not very realistic. I've never seen a damaged mech in real life, but looking at what I've seen of armored vehicles, often you end up with a spectacular explosion or almost nothing, but either way the armor isn't shredded off. There are some dings and dents and then the hole that made the kill, not tanks limping along with their engines half hanging out.

We're not talking about real life here, nor are we talking about modern day technology. Armour of the future, I can only assume, would be very different to the armour today. In modern day terms, tanks are either destroyed with large high explosive weaponry, or with armour piercing weaponry. As we don't have any weaponry that can pierce right now, I think it'd be a nice touch if there was more visible damage to a mech. At the very least, the armour needs to be visibly heavily damaged when it's removed, as we can't damage internals until the armour is gone.

TommyAtkins, on 05 October 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

Weapon recoil- I get your point, but my vote is no recoil for lazer weapons, or for arm weapons as the arm should be able to soak up the recoil.

Agreed. The exception I'd make is that PPCs should have recoil, as they're more like a cannon than a laser.

TommyAtkins, on 05 October 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

Cockpits
I'm totally against your opinion of cockpit damage though. The cockpit should only show damage when my cockpit is hit. In that event though, yes, cracked screens and a freezed up hud so you're measuring heat and radar by the seat of your pants would be great. At the present though I get hit with a barrage of missiles and my screen is often covered with smoke and red making things hard enough to see as is so I wouldn't go crazy on additional cockpit effects.
Yeah, having a moving cockpit and the terrain not move is kind of awkward. I like the different cockpit layouts and while some should be visually restrictive, think of other mechs like the madcat which has a cockpit that would have far more field of view than others.

IMO there definitely needs to be more indication of severe damage to your mech. Okay, maybe the cockpit shouldn't be cracked if it's not being hit, however there needs to be more audio cues and visual indicators (good use for cockpit displays perhaps?) that you've taken heavy damage. And I'm not suggesting that the view should flail about to an extent that it's impossible to aim while moving but there needs to be noticeable movement.

TommyAtkins, on 05 October 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

Audio- sound diversity for weapons would be a plus, but I personally don't need the sound cranked up to 11. Sure the 14 ton cannon is loud. I can only image that the cockpits are addequitely sound dampened to make sure mech pilots can funtion without their ears bleeding and their organs rupturing from the vibrations let alone communicate with each other. Think of the noise canceling and filtering technlogy avialable. Sure these things would sound truely awesome and terrible if you were a groundpounder looking on, but the opperator in the mech (i.e. all the players of the game) would be spared the effect.

I don't suggest turning up the sound so much that it becomes intrusive to gameplay, however I believe the sounds definitely need to be louder than they are now, in particular the recycling sounds on ballistics. As it is now they're barely audible. From a gameplay perspective, being able to hear a new shell being loaded means you know when you can fire again, so in this case a louder sound improves gameplay.

Janus Wealth, on 05 October 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

I might be alone with this, but i really feel like im in a stompy big hunk of metal. The base to a good immersion is given.

Visuals are a little problem. but not, because i dont like the look, but i feel like there has to be destruction of the environment. If i walk into a tiny building with an atlas i want to see the destruction - same as you. But i dont like superfancy environment, its not needed anyway! I look at the mechs while fighting, not at the scenery.

Sound... is important. Im a musician myself, so i want fitting music. Stompy march music, for example.

But i would turn it off, after a while. I dont like Music in the cockpit while playingwith my unit. Its counterproductive! I dont hear my teammates, i dont hear the footsteps of other mechs (thats really important) and i dont hear the weaponshots. Im not sure about this point at all...

The game is nowhere near as immersive as it could be. Destruction could add a huge new factor to the game - just look at Battlefield for examples of that.

As for sound, I'm not referring to music. I'm referring to sounds. Music shouldn't play while you're in game, although there could be a 'cockpit music player' that lets you play your own tracks at low volume which could be turned on and off. However, the sounds in the game - AC recycling, impact and firing sounds, ambient sounds, and sounds of interaction with the environment - need massive improvement to achieve audio immersion.

[Kyone Akashi]

Some of the ideas in this thread are just not of my taste (I like the current weapon sounds, for example), are counterproductive for smooth gameplay, or have a "payoff" which is too small / too unnoticable to justify the cost of development.

That being said, there are indeed a few things which I would like to be implemented for greater immersion:
- muteable onboard computer voice with classic startup sequence ("systems - online ... reactor - online ...")
- semi-destructible environments (mowing down trees as we walk through, blowing chunks out of buildings)
- in MechLab, instead of 'mechs spawning and despawning on the same spot, have the camera roll back and forth to permanent "parking slots"
- if possible, pilot arms/hands being customizable (faction uniforms)

I also approve of the cockpit music player, though. I'm sure it could easily be linked to our MP3 playlists or some directory - I am used to such things from other games and it was generally enjoyable! I can work around the issue by starting up WinAmp before launching into a match, but of course it is not as comfortable.

Lastly, I noticed a currently empty portrait in our launcher profiles. I wonder if we will have the opportunity to upload images of our characters later on, or (preferrably, in order to prevent abuse and "unify" portrait styles across the playerbase) generate a 3D face a la EVE later on?

[Firereign]

Kyone Akashi, on 05 October 2012 - 06:13 PM, said:

- muteable onboard computer voice with classic startup sequence ("systems - online ... reactor - online ...")
- semi-destructible environments (mowing down trees as we walk through, blowing chunks out of buildings)
- in MechLab, instead of 'mechs spawning and despawning on the same spot, have the camera roll back and forth to permanent "parking slots"
- if possible, pilot arms/hands being customizable (faction uniforms)

All of those are great ideas, particularly the onboard computer voice. Not just start up sequences, but audio warnings when armour on a component is destroyed, and when the component itself is damaged or destroyed, as well as when individual weapons are destroyed and when it runs out of ammo.

[Adrienne Vorton]

it needs some work, but it´s on a good way....nuff said

[Pisces Proxima]

I just want PPC's to reflect their real-life ancestor's and illustrate the penultimate realization of that tech.

The Army's PPC
http://www.newsy.com...-lightning-gun/

[TROWAHC]

I agree with what you are saying, but there is on very big flaw in your argument. This is a online competitive multi-player game. Immersion doesn't mean anything here. This isn't a strongly narration driven single-player game like in MW games of old. This is a strategic, competitive, team-based online game where one wrong move or bad strategy could have you and/or your entire team waiting on the sidelines for the next match.

The Immersion should come from our love of the lore of MW and our own Imaginations. If you can't do that then you will not get any immersion from the game.

[Firereign]

TROWAHC, on 06 October 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

I agree with what you are saying, but there is on very big flaw in your argument. This is a online competitive multi-player game. Immersion doesn't mean anything here. This isn't a strongly narration driven single-player game like in MW games of old. This is a strategic, competitive, team-based online game where one wrong move or bad strategy could have you and/or your entire team waiting on the sidelines for the next match.

The Immersion should come from our love of the lore of MW and our own Imaginations. If you can't do that then you will not get any immersion from the game.

Suggesting that multiplayer games don't need to be immersive is just wrong. Whenever I play Battlefield, I feel like I'm truly in a war. The explosions and gunfire going off around me, the incredible visual design, mean that I feel totally immersed in the game. And it makes a huge difference to my enjoyment of the game. Immersion doesn't have to interfere with tactics or strategy either.

Immersion is not just knowing the lore and using your imagination. That's similar to suggesting that you can use your imagination to make a crappy book a more enjoyable read. Imagination (and lore) is a factor, yes, but it needs to be combined with immersive visuals and sound as well.

Edited by Firereign, 06 October 2012 - 02:42 AM.

[Ecouto]

I wanna see cool alien worlds. Most of the maps do look pretty earthy and boring Maybe a multistory cave system lit up by weird blue plant thingys ? That would be cool

[Cargo Bane]

Brand new, 1st post, coming from WoT Premium 2yrs plus and iRacing 3+ yrs.
I'm debating with myself to hop on Founder or wait for OB. 40yrs old, I've been gaming since 2D videos cards were brand new.
I'm dying to hook up the saitek and mech around. But I'm concerned by what I've read around here the past day.

Is joystick support really off that much? I don't want to KbM a mech, that's just wrong...
Is play more trigger twitch fest, or is it actually MW style? The in game videos I've seen of the hyper torso speed of the Jenner is discourgaing.

And Finally, I so wish for a 5 PPC Maruder, any ideas if that will happen. I must have it.

[DerMaulwurf]

For me the game is quite immersive right now. But not enough. I have some particular pet peeves.

• The trees: you just clip through them. They should snap like twigs when my Mech walks through them. And they should burst in flames when hit by a laser or PPC. The first point also applies to lamp posts and traffic lights.
  
• Cars/Trucks should be crushed under the feet of my Atlas instead of being unscathed. Or in some cases even blocking my path
  
• Mechs need better visuals for battle damage. Having them light up like christmas trees (even before the engine swap) for some time after being hit, but having no lasting scorching/shattering looks quite silly. Especially since a cored Mech without limb damage, just looks like a pristine machine after the glow has faded instead of a mangled wreckage as it should do.

Nothing of this is elemental for the game (unlike Matchmaking or more/better game modes), but they would enhance the experience by a lot for me.

[Arch Angel 09]

I like the Idea of semi destructable environments however i would rather the combat run smooth than pushing over trees if i had the choice. little things like the computers voice at engine startup and notifying you of armor damage somthing simple as "RT armor at 50%" in that classic female computer voice "ambient tempature is....." classic also for pilot immersion i thought it would be cool if they animated the pilot during the initial startup putting some chewing gum on a polaroid like photo (imported jpeg of your choosing like wife,children, etc..) somewhere in the cockpit. that would make you feel more like a warrior aware of the fact that every mission might be his last. as for armor damage it can look a bit silly at times but we are playing a game and its best to make some graphical sacrifices for better gameplay and the current system gives players an idea of the damage they are doing and where to concentrate fire on their next volley

[DLO]

I disagree with your options on this poll.

I would vote for there to be an option that is:

"Immersion is enough to get by but since I know a thing or two about the game and have actually read up and done some research, and because of said research I know a lot of things are coming down the pipeline like community warfare etc. and therefore am not worried and know that there will be plenty immersion in the future."

Add that to your poll.

[B A Dalton]

Joystick please..