52 replies to this topic

[geck0 icaza]

I do believe a lot of you here have been with your chosen faction for a long time. Some consistently, others more in spirit. Both IS, merc, and clanners alike. Its a source of pride and comfort for all of us. Many of us rocked at MW4, MW2, MW3, Mechcommander 1 and 2, Living legends mod, and the TT or any other version. And even if we don't rock face in those games we still love our faction dearly.

We all have a very basic understanding on how the game will work in terms of joining a faction and what that means. I understand how that system may not fit 100% with how the Clans work. I get it. I read a lot of posts about how players should be able to join clans. They include: try outs, level minimums, and rank maintenance just to name a few. None of which an IS player has to endure. Change something small so it makes more sense. But tryouts? I get the trial of position thing but this is a game. And not an RP one either.

If you for whatever reason weren't great at THIS game, would you be upset that you couldn't play your beloved faction? Hell yes you would. I know i'm going to get an IS response containing something like "the weapons are OP" or "you have to keep everyone from going there". But, does that justify denying someone the ability to play for their faction?

I know having clan tech run rampant is a scary thing but we are a year away from the Clans and haven't even played the game yet. Is it possible these fears are remnants of previous experiences? Thus far the information we have indicates this will be a mechwarrior unlike those we've ever seen. That's a very good thing IMO. Maybe they are much harder to maintain. Maybe they have to fight 2v1 or 3v1 odds, maybe they lack the extensive mods the IS will have access to. We don't know anything and already we want to punish those who would choose those factions.

As far as player base, I couldn't find a link but there was a poll in the forums on who would join the IS over the clans. The clans were easily the minority. I know this doesn't discount the new players that know nothing of the lore from flocking to what seems to be better gear. But again we know nothing about it.

Why punish us? Why the special treatment?

[Slapshot]

I am pretty sure the clans are going to be included, at least the major ones. The real question is if us little guys who root for the smaller factions will get some kind of voice.

[Shikari]

@ geck0 icaza

I hear you.
And kind of agree with you.

You see, what is actually happening is that those who pretend try-outs (ToPs) in order to join their guild are a sort of old-timers, so to speak, with an interest in keeping Clan factions as close to the lore as possible..
These guys are running their guilds over to MW:LL where they set those rules and where is possible to do it. It’s just a wish/hope they have to be able to do that in MWO too.

But as you self-pointed out: we don’t know much about how MWO will look. What if we won’t get the possibility of those ToPs in this game? Will I have to go in MW:LL or other versions to hold my ToP so I can play within their guild in MWO??? Stupid sounding, isn’t it?
I too believe that those individuals are going in too deep into this. Their desire to make being a clanner more interesting will only decrease their numbers as most players will choose the IS or Merc guilds which won’t be based on Clan Martial Code.

They might argue to the fact that Clans will have access to better weapons from the start and that you’ll have to “earn” that privilege in some way (hence the ToPs or whatever else). But again, who said that that’s the way it’s going to be in MWO??? Assumptions? Yeah, right.

I’d rather see it as those better Clan weapons will be available to everybody. As advanced modules which will be unlocked by progressing with the game. That even the Clans will start out with largely the same weapon-potential as the IS. That upon progression both Clans and IS will have at some point access to those fancy Clan hardware.
They've said 1:1 as far as the time-table goes. Not the weaponery IIRC.

[GuntherK]

The Clans ?
Bah... periphery fairy tales produced by badly destiled alcohol.
The return of Kerensky children is a myth... a boogey man to frighten small children into good behaviour.

[Oppi]

Shikari, on 17 March 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

I too believe that those individuals are going in too deep into this. Their desire to make being a clanner more interesting will only decrease their numbers as most players will choose the IS or Merc guilds which won’t be based on Clan Martial Code.

Which is exactly what they want to achieve. Clanners should by far be the minority of players (according to lore and to keep everything balanced), but sadly that's not going to happen with all those "I can haz Madcat ?" dudes out there. So what can be done ?
* Give Clantech to everyone ? -> Raping the lore. (Where would IS Pilots get it ? Even after the extinction of the smoke jaguars, Clantech was rare in the Inner Sphere.)
* Make Clantech balanced with IS tech ? -> Raping the lore. (IS bombed itself back to the dark age during the succession wars, while the Clans even improved the tech Kerensky took with him. It's bound to be superior.)
* Make it hard to become a Clanner ? -> Possible, but not likely, because of the reasons the OP mentioned. People would be upset.

IMO they shouldn't balance by faction but by every single game. A company of IS Mechs against 5-10 Clanners might be fair, and being constantly outnumbered could keep some people in the IS ranks.

[Merrick]

no matter what you do, in order to stay true even a little to the lore the clans will be OP unless they are outnumbered fairly badly. If memory serves 1 clanner can drop at least 5 IS mech's before going out.

[FireNova]

geck0 icaza, on 16 March 2012 - 06:29 PM, said:

But, does that justify denying someone the ability to play for their faction?

This question will be more of an issue to SJ based players than any other Clan/faction simply because of the "lore" involved IMHO. I am still wondering how the devs will keep the game from going into "faction choice option denial" mode. Because having "canon" dictate to people what they can/cannot choose to play as is not good. Otherwise, might as well have everyone play Davion and call it a day. Hell, even those who want to play St. Ives will probably never get the opportunity simply because of "lore restrictions".

[CCC Dober]

OP: It seems that I'm not the only one to worry about the lack of information, which I take as a good sign that the community is alive and kicking. Given the premise that MWO is not a clone of past MW games, we have no reason to worry about Clans. The utter lack of hard, solid information regarding Clans however is disturbing. They have thrown game balance in the past to such an extent that they effectively splintered the player base into those preferring not to play past a certain point and those that do. I'm not really looking forward to Clans if they aren't recognised as a serious balance problem by the devs, let alone be recognized at all.

[Red1769]

According to lore, the Smoke Jaguers were wiped out in the 3050s, there is plenty of time to figure out what to do with those that decided to join them when the clans come out. Clan tech is most certainly superior in pretty much every way until 3052 or shortly after, and I would hate to see it dulled down since it was one of the things that made them the juggernaut that they were. It took awhile before the IS started to close that gap, though it was never fully closed. Now, this is player based, one player I highly doubt can handle five mechs at once on their own, superior tech or not. Ten clan mechs to Twelve IS mechs, for this player base, is rather reasonable. Those "elitists" that want to make the clans as close to the lore as possible, even outside of combat, is just plain rediculous, this is a game, everything doesn't have to be according to canon, especially player controlled content.

It should be hard for the IS pilots to get Clan tech or mechs, but they should still have access to it (I want ma Daishi/Dire Wolf!). This would give off some issues, but I have full confidence in the devs to make it right or balanced. Anyway, the clans won't be here until after launch anyway, so there are plenty of time to work them out. And chances are, we'll hear more about them as they are getting close to being released.

[geck0 icaza]

Red1769, on 17 March 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

According to lore, the Smoke Jaguers were wiped out in the 3050s, there is plenty of time to figure out what to do with those that decided to join them when the clans come out. Clan tech is most certainly superior in pretty much every way until 3052 or shortly after, and I would hate to see it dulled down since it was one of the things that made them the juggernaut that they were. It took awhile before the IS started to close that gap, though it was never fully closed. Now, this is player based, one player I highly doubt can handle five mechs at once on their own, superior tech or not. Ten clan mechs to Twelve IS mechs, for this player base, is rather reasonable. Those "elitists" that want to make the clans as close to the lore as possible, even outside of combat, is just plain rediculous, this is a game, everything doesn't have to be according to canon, especially player controlled content.

It should be hard for the IS pilots to get Clan tech or mechs, but they should still have access to it (I want ma Daishi/Dire Wolf!). This would give off some issues, but I have full confidence in the devs to make it right or balanced. Anyway, the clans won't be here until after launch anyway, so there are plenty of time to work them out. And chances are, we'll hear more about them as they are getting close to being released.

Actually the IS got their first real salvage opportunity in 6 months of the invasion with the victories at twycross and wycott (im sure im spelling it wrong). Plus technology gap has yet to completely close even by Dark age time lines. The biggest factor at that point is the technology has been scattered throughout the IS to the point where its fairly consistent. By about 3065 the IS closes the gap significantly in engine, armor and heat sinks but weapons is still where the clan have better general weapons ability. (ex:IS has: heavy ppc, light ppc, snub ppc, etc where as the clans have the er ppc.)

As for the OP, I know people would like to stick with the lore as much as possible I was a saKhan in MW4 and we held ToP's constantly. But this was for the clan, not for the game. People can do what they want for their own unit. In fact I would encourage it. This way it would be hard to find combat with a good team unless you are in a "unit" or whatever the clan equivalent of a merc corp. will be. That's fine with me.

As for the information being available: I don't mind really. I mean these guys are concentrating on making the game work period. To ask about hypothetical balances a year down the road, on a game that's not even in beta yet would be a little unreasonable. My post was mostly directed to a lot of complaining going on about the clans and how they should be handled.

One way of balancing out the clans approach to attacking the IS is IS "bid points" or whatever you want to call it. Clanners will fight trials against other clan players. This is nothing more than playing a Clan vs Clan game. But for every win you get these points and the points will allow you to play the IS for control of planets and like. This will allow players to play the faction they like while maintaining a good relationship with the lore. And hopefully the indivual units themselves will have ToP's for their own members thus making it a more authentic experience over all without punishing players for their choice.

Edited by geck0 icaza, 17 March 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[CCC Dober]

This is what I'm talking about. The problem doesn't exist for you as long as the Clans don't make it into the game. Why is it unreasonable to discuss things before they happen? Can't you see that we care enough to voice our concerns, so that past mistakes can be avoided?

[geck0 icaza]

I agree talking about it now can have great impact on the game. But, can you agree to the point that they have much more pressing matters at the moment?

I think talking about it now will keep the player base from spinning out of control to the point when the devs.are ready to begin work on it the masses aren't complete dead set on how things should be done from their perspective. If the devs. aren't firm they could bend to popular demand. So far from what I've seen I don't believe this would happen. But whose to say after a year of the game being played, the numbers aren't what they hoped for? Bending to appease the masses may seem more likely at that point.

But I think the objective of posts and discussions like this is establish a basic dialog between players on the issue. In doing this the community can listen reason with people on different sides of the issue so a solution may present itself or at least inspire the devs. in their decision making process.

[CCC Dober]

One year down the road it might be too late. If I was selfish, uncaring and unfair, I'd laugh it off as irrelevant and enjoy my Clan Mechs anyway. This doesn't help those on the receiving end one bit and will cause major fallout. Do we need that? Is it necessary to let that happen, when you know this beforehand from past MW games? Do the devs need the added pressure when they would be better off adding content, rather than trying to fix what was broken in the beginning thanks to a lack of planning?

Concept and planning is what you do before you build a game. Anything else is just asking for trouble. A real world example would be to to build a tower, which represents the IS. Then you'd try to build another, much heavier tower on the same ground, without altering the foundation. And then you'd try to connect both with a bridge, again, not touching the foundation. If this is bound to fail in the real world, then it is no diffenrent in this game. The basics of planning and preparation are the same. Successful projects need proper and careful planning and Clans are part of a bigger project here. The foundation needs to be strong enough to support them and not break apart below the Clans, unsettling balance and dragging everything else down with it.

I hope the example is good enough to get the point across. Foundation, basics, it's all about getting this done in the right way to avoid a disaster. Rather sooner than later, when it is still possible to affect changes that don't jeopardize overall success.

Edited by CCC_Dober, 17 March 2012 - 11:36 AM.

[Odins Reaver]

I think that it SHOULD be hard to become and be a clanner. Let the people whine, force them to be skillful. I really think that being clan should be very very hardcore, that way you have the 10vs12 drops that make the Sphereroids tremble in fear.

[Seabear]

There will be those who want to jump to the clans simply for the technology witout considering the restrictions playing such a faction wil PROBABLY entail. ie clan code of honor, bidding on combats etc. If the devs stick close to clan lore, the game will be self balancing. If clanners play true to the ideals of Kerensky, the street fighting tactics of the IS will have a chance against the dueling mentality of the clans. If they are allowed to play IS style in Clan mechs , the whole game gets twisted. To me, that will be the telling point. I don't mind facing the clans if they are palyed as represented in the lore. Too many would be clanners seem to focus on the techonology forget about the social implications of their society.

For now , I think we need to focus on the game as it goes into Beta and soon into release. What we ghave heard so far indicates the lore is in good hands. Let's not start chasing the ghost of what might or mignt not conceivably happen. it's too full of "sound and fury, signifying nothing".

[geck0 icaza]

Odins Reaver, on 17 March 2012 - 11:48 AM, said:

I think that it SHOULD be hard to become and be a clanner. Let the people whine, force them to be skillful. I really think that being clan should be very very hardcore, that way you have the 10vs12 drops that make the Sphereroids tremble in fear.

This is exactly the attitude that the OP was referring to. "let them whine"? Turn the tables: make the clan weapons op, with no special game modes, no battle value or numbers difference. "let the IS players whine". That doesn't work out too well for the game or the players.... on both sides.

I get where your coming from being a Jade Falcon player myself. But this is a game. If you want to start a unit and institute all of the RP elements in your unit go right ahead. Heck, I can promise I will if I decide to start a unit. But I will not advocate for those same systems to put in place for a large portion of the game. Especially when the IS get to freely join whomever they want with none of the strings.

And here's the difference.

If your a responsible clan the players you are recruiting know what they are signing up for. Up front they know, in order to play with your unit while also playing the game these are the things they will have to deal with. And hopefully that will be the appeal for joining a clan unit.

When playing the game, the expectation is... its a game. Hop in, have fun, buy some stuff, level up. The game itself should balance the choices he/she can makes in the equipment and modes he can use it. "wanna play clan? play against other clanners or fight 5v8 or worse odds, or a game mode where you are at a distinct disadvantage". Its simple, and likely effective.

CCC_Dober, on 17 March 2012 - 11:34 AM, said:

One year down the road it might be too late. If I was selfish, uncaring and unfair, I'd laugh it off as irrelevant and enjoy my Clan Mechs anyway. This doesn't help those on the receiving end one bit and will cause major fallout. Do we need that? Is it necessary to let that happen, when you know this beforehand from past MW games? Do the devs need the added pressure when they would be better off adding content, rather than trying to fix what was broken in the beginning thanks to a lack of planning?

Concept and planning is what you do before you build a game. Anything else is just asking for trouble. A real world example would be to to build a tower, which represents the IS. Then you'd try to build another, much heavier tower on the same ground, without altering the foundation. And then you'd try to connect both with a bridge, again, not touching the foundation. If this is bound to fail in the real world, then it is no diffenrent in this game. The basics of planning and preparation are the same. Successful projects need proper and careful planning and Clans are part of a bigger project here. The foundation needs to be strong enough to support them and not break apart below the Clans, unsettling balance and dragging everything else down with it.

I hope the example is good enough to get the point across. Foundation, basics, it's all about getting this done in the right way to avoid a disaster. Rather sooner than later, when it is still possible to affect changes that don't jeopardize overall success.

I will agree that the example communicates the point clearly. But I disagree with the content. I believe what they are doing now IS the foundation. The IS is the margin in which the clans will be measured. So by having a solid IS base or (foundation ) It will be easier to scale the clans accordingly.

Note: if I at all come off as flaming or combative I apologize it was not my intention. (I was recently told that I can come off kinda ***** when I can't convey proper voice inflection)

[Red1769]

Quote

Actually the IS got their first real salvage opportunity in 6 months of the invasion with the victories at twycross and wycott (im sure im spelling it wrong). Plus technology gap has yet to completely close even by Dark age time lines. The biggest factor at that point is the technology has been scattered throughout the IS to the point where its fairly consistent. By about 3065 the IS closes the gap significantly in engine, armor and heat sinks but weapons is still where the clan have better general weapons ability. (ex:IS has: heavy ppc, light ppc, snub ppc, etc where as the clans have the er ppc.)

As for the OP, I know people would like to stick with the lore as much as possible I was a saKhan in MW4 and we held ToP's constantly. But this was for the clan, not for the game. People can do what they want for their own unit. In fact I would encourage it. This way it would be hard to find combat with a good team unless you are in a "unit" or whatever the clan equivalent of a merc corp. will be. That's fine with me.

As for the information being available: I don't mind really. I mean these guys are concentrating on making the game work period. To ask about hypothetical balances a year down the road, on a game that's not even in beta yet would be a little unreasonable. My post was mostly directed to a lot of complaining going on about the clans and how they should be handled.

One way of balancing out the clans approach to attacking the IS is IS "bid points" or whatever you want to call it. Clanners will fight trials against other clan players. This is nothing more than playing a Clan vs Clan game. But for every win you get these points and the points will allow you to play the IS for control of planets and like. This will allow players to play the faction they like while maintaining a good relationship with the lore. And hopefully the indivual units themselves will have ToP's for their own members thus making it a more authentic experience over all without punishing players for their choice.

I'm not much of a Clan history buff on their defeats besides the big one against the ComGuards in 3052. Either way, they were still trying to understand the outlying technology for their mechs and weaponry, if memory serves, the first IS omnimechs weren't until two years after they arrived. Feel free to correct me if that part is wrong. Thank you for restating something I already said. They never fully caught up.

Players can do what they want to do with their units, agreed. If they wanna do those ToPs that's fine. Limiting Clan tech access as a whole to a very select group is where it gets my ire and is really the issue. But yeah, I would agree with the rest of that.

The only thing that might need to be in check are the Inner Sphere folk that got Clan tech and start fighting normally. I'm one of those that would take my Daishi and start fighting normally against another, shooting whoever dares to cross me. But alas, we'll find out later. To quote Seabear: For now , I think we need to focus on the game as it goes into Beta and soon into release. What we have heard so far indicates the lore is in good hands. Let's not start chasing the ghost of what might or mignt not conceivably happen. it's too full of "sound and fury, signifying nothing".

[geck0 icaza]

Seabear, on 17 March 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

There will be those who want to jump to the clans simply for the technology witout considering the restrictions playing such a faction wil PROBABLY entail. ie clan code of honor, bidding on combats etc. If the devs stick close to clan lore, the game will be self balancing. If clanners play true to the ideals of Kerensky, the street fighting tactics of the IS will have a chance against the dueling mentality of the clans. If they are allowed to play IS style in Clan mechs , the whole game gets twisted. To me, that will be the telling point. I don't mind facing the clans if they are palyed as represented in the lore. Too many would be clanners seem to focus on the techonology forget about the social implications of their society.

For now , I think we need to focus on the game as it goes into Beta and soon into release. What we ghave heard so far indicates the lore is in good hands. Let's not start chasing the ghost of what might or mignt not conceivably happen. it's too full of "sound and fury, signifying nothing".

Very well put. I tip my hat to you.

[CCC Dober]

Guys, I think we are all on the same page here, but please don't forget that enforcing unnatural behavior such as Zell and limited numbers are neither appealing nor fair for the average player. It is also very cumbersome and largely ignored later on. While I see the point that these problems don't affect IS content now, they might affect them eventually. I have difficulties to see how the honor concept can be enforced ingame, when it is easy and not unheard of to override it at any second. That leaves only numbers, which is a questionable advantage given the higher tech level and quality of the opposing Clan Mechs. I wouldn't look forward to face a bunch of Gladiators or Daishis with certified IS rubble, no matter if I got the numbers on my side. I'd prolly need offmap ArrowIV support to give them a lasting headache and some flyboys to mop them up, because I wouldn't want them to get close enough if I could help it. Just saying ... the difference in numbers means jack if it's just 10 vs 12. Technology is gonna win this regardless.

Edited by CCC_Dober, 17 March 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Pvt Dancer]

This is for the OP...

To be fair, I don't think Clans are being discriminated against. Your right, they /could/ alter the Tech where Clan tech is no better than Lost tech. But the Tech is a core of the universe as much as the clans themselves are. I also think it is silly for anyone who wants to play a faction to jump through hoops to play it. As far as we know, factions might not be limited to account but based on pilot... just because I have a Davion Avatar does not mean I am shoe-horned into playing only Davion. The level of emersion into the Faction is up to you and how much effort you want to put into it...

But to go back into the tech side-track... this is a F2P game, and the 3 different levels of tech in the universe are a great way for Piranha and IGP to make their money. To those that do not understand the tech levels, let me show you and example...

Warhammer has a total of 17 heat sinks (10 for the engine and 7 tons of actual HSs) and 2 PPCs (plus assorted weapontry that doesn't matter for now). To fire those PPCs, the Warhammer generates 20 heat. Standard tech heat sinks is 1 ton, for 1 crit, for 1 heat. You can put standard Heat Sinks (HS for short) in the legs, so if you were standing in water, those HSs work like Double Heat Sinks (DHS for short). Your not allowed by the core rules to place DHSs in the legs. Lost Tech/Star League DHSs are 1 ton, for 3 crit, for 2 heat. Clan DHSs are 1 ton, for 2 Crits, for 2 Heat. Thus there is a progression, and thus it would make sense to make some tech super expensive in game, but allow real money to be spent to get it.