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Internal Structure and Critical Hits


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#21 autogyro

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 09:15 PM

View PostYeach, on 02 April 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

It doesn't seem that the right or left torso have "bone" structure as they are not indicated in the criticals.

If the internal structure was just the skeleton, then it would be much harder to hit (if you assume that the skeleton "bones" are small); yet once you strip off the armor of a mech, you are hitting into the internal structure.

Is it to believe that a mech with very few criticals (in the torsos) to be hollow inside?


Think of criticals as the organs inside. You don't always hit the important organs, or there might not be any where you hit. Bone structure and the myomer muscular structure is always treated as hit, even if no (organ) critical.

Edited by autogyro, 02 April 2012 - 10:20 PM.


#22 Ivan Whackinov

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:03 PM

View PostYeach, on 02 April 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

It doesn't seem that the right or left torso have "bone" structure as they are not indicated in the criticals.

If the internal structure was just the skeleton, then it would be much harder to hit (if you assume that the skeleton "bones" are small); yet once you strip off the armor of a mech, you are hitting into the internal structure.

Is it to believe that a mech with very few criticals (in the torsos) to be hollow inside?


The internal structure is the skeleton & joints of the mech that everything else mounts to, just like the chassis of a truck. The internal structure itself is not represented in the critical slots, it is represented on the Internal Structure Diagram of the record sheet. The criticals are the parts that are bolted on top of the internal structure, such as the reactor that supplies the power and the actuators that make the joints move (note that destroying a shoulder actuator doesn't make the arm fall off, it just locks up the shoulder joint - to make the arm fall off you have to destroy the skeleton, or IS). The armor is then wrapped around all of those pieces (internal structure and critical slots).

The sections of a mech with few things in them aren't hollow shells, if they were every mech would look exactly the same. Each section of a mech is built large enough to hold the parts contained within it, and no bigger. That's why a critical hit always hits something, because there are no "empty" critical spots inside a mech. The mech is exactly big enough to hold what it needs to hold and no bigger. A mech's left torso can contain up to 12 critical locations, but if there isn't anything in those locations it just means that part of the mech is physically smaller, not that it is a hollow shell of empty space. Additionally, there are many things that the Battletech damage system just ignores, like coolant plumbing, wiring, ammo feed mechanisms & ammo bay reloading doors, etc. These can all be assumed to take up space as well, we just don't track them for simplicity's sake.

Take a Hunchback for example. That big AC/20 in the right torso means that the right torso is physically much larger than the left torso. The Hunchback's left torso isn't built to the same size and filled with empty space without purpose, it is just physically smaller because there are less things to put in there (just a couple of ammo bins). To make the tabletop game balanced and easy to play the rules had to assume all mechs had basically the same structure & proportions, because having a separate hit table for every single mech would be impractical, but in a more realistic sense some locations are larger than others, inside and out. The right and left torsos of a Locust are tiny compared to the ones on the Hunchback because the Locust doesn't have anything in them - there just isn't any way to model this in a practical way for a tabletop system.

When you roll a miss in the tabletop game, you can imagine all sorts of things happened... maybe your missiles hit the target but failed to arm properly, or maybe that autocannon shell glanced off a highly angled armor plate. Maybe you hit a location where all the armor is gone and the laser beam went between two pieces of internal structure and passed straight through the mech without hitting anything, just by dumb luck. Or maybe your aim just sucked. A miss can be a miss for a dozen reasons - the dice are just there to tell you what happened. How it happened is up to you and your imagination.

There are certainly much more realistic ways to model battle damage than the ones used in the tabletop rules, especially in a 3D game where you can actually track where hits are made instead of having to rely on RNG and imagination. They just wouldn't be practical or fun to do in a tabletop scenario. Try not to get too bogged down in the minutiae.

-E

#23 Pht

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 11:14 AM

View PostYeach, on 02 April 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

It doesn't seem that the right or left torso have "bone" structure as they are not indicated in the criticals.

If the internal structure was just the skeleton, then it would be much harder to hit (if you assume that the skeleton "bones" are small); yet once you strip off the armor of a mech, you are hitting into the internal structure.

Is it to believe that a mech with very few criticals (in the torsos) to be hollow inside?



They are indicated; as the internal structure on the armor diagrams. The criticals lists what's attached to them.

As far as the "hollow" comment - yes, so? While this might be good to look into for a video game where a lot of rules are handled in the back end in real time, on pen and paper it would be getting towards the "a bit too complex" end.

Someone, somewhere, probably has some house rules for it.

#24 William Petersen

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Posted 03 April 2012 - 12:44 PM

View PostYeach, on 19 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Since not many comments I am going to comment further.

An Atlas with zero armor and just internal structure equals has total internal structure & armor roughly the same amount as a fully armored 25 ton mech.
Can internal structure be interpreted basically "extra" default armor with the possibilities to get critical hits?

In regards to critical hits, I would like to see more hit-boxes showing the various critical components rather than random chance.

For example on an arm, lets say you destroyed all the armor, the shoulder actuator should be located in the upper portion of the arm and the hand actuator should be at the other end of the arm.
Not where you shoot at the lower portion of the arm (the hand) only to disable the shoulder.



Again can anyone else comment on this for constructions rules; all other areas such as head, arms, center torso and legs all have existing criticals assigned for something. Are we to believe that the side torsos are floating emptyboxes for weapons? What is the side torso connected to?



Your use of "armour" in the second case is a bit ambiguous. You *can* consider Internal structure as additional 'hit points' or 'durability' in the location, but it isn't really armour, because the whole point of armour is to protect the internal structure (and the components housed therein).

Yes. An unarmoured Atlas will have more "HP" than any Fire Moth, but that doesn't mean it can weather as much fire. EX: if the first hit you take crits your ammo, well, you're sunk. Every critical hit does something really bad, from destroying a weapon, to making your mech slower (and/or causing a PSR [Piloting Skill Roll]), to causing extra heat (engine), to immediate destruction (cockpit, CASE-less ammo/Gauss explosion). It's all really bad stuff.


While that would be great for immersion, having to program critical-hit boxes within the location hit boxes within the hit box of every single mech is wishful thinking. I'm content with random criticals (as long as there are no *#%$)*$%)*#$%*() TACs! [Through Armour Criticals]).

#25 AlanEsh

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:15 AM

I was about to start a similar thread...

Can someone reinforce or refute this statement for me? (regarding TT rules)
* Endo Steel internal structure saves a little weight, but it's biggest benefit is adding "damage soak" criticals to your mech's internals.

Is this pretty much the case, or am I misinterpreting the TT critical hit rules where Endo crits are concerned?

#26 William Petersen

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 07:45 AM

View PostAngelicon, on 13 April 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

I was about to start a similar thread...

Can someone reinforce or refute this statement for me? (regarding TT rules)
* Endo Steel internal structure saves a little weight, but it's biggest benefit is adding "damage soak" criticals to your mech's internals.

Is this pretty much the case, or am I misinterpreting the TT critical hit rules where Endo crits are concerned?


I don't believe FF or ES critical spaces actually take critical hits; I believe they just act like empty slots for the purposes of rolling crits. The space they take up is meant to be the penalty, not the benefit.

EDIT: Yeah, just checked in my Master Rules (C 2001), both FF and ES criticals "have no effect and should be rerolled".

Edited by William Petersen, 13 April 2012 - 07:47 AM.


#27 AlanEsh

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:22 AM

Super, thanks for the info!

#28 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 13 April 2012 - 10:29 AM

Still think TACs should be in - even though I tend to pilot ammo heavy mechs.

#29 Yeach

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 05:53 PM

In the Razer Artemis trailer it looks like one of the mechs we can pilot is the "Swayback" or Hunchback with 6 medium lasers instead of AC20.

Lets say you were able to take down all the armor in the right torso;
Logically shooting the UPPER portion of the right torso (with the 6 MLasers) should result in a critical hit taking out one or two or a few of the lasers;

However should shooting at the LOWER portion of the right torso (where no MLasers are located) be able to take out those medium lasers?

#30 Draxern

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 10:47 PM

Hopefully there is an element of luck in the game with critical hits.

Critical hits are random for the area. So if critical hit you will hit something in the RT noway to hit exactly what you want.

Edited by Draxern, 08 June 2012 - 10:49 PM.


#31 UncleKulikov

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 10:52 PM

View PostYeach, on 19 March 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

Since not many comments I am going to comment further.

An Atlas with zero armor and just internal structure equals has total internal structure & armor roughly the same amount as a fully armored 25 ton mech.
Can internal structure be interpreted basically "extra" default armor with the possibilities to get critical hits?

In regards to critical hits, I would like to see more hit-boxes showing the various critical components rather than random chance.

For example on an arm, lets say you destroyed all the armor, the shoulder actuator should be located in the upper portion of the arm and the hand actuator should be at the other end of the arm.
Not where you shoot at the lower portion of the arm (the hand) only to disable the shoulder.



Again can anyone else comment on this for constructions rules; all other areas such as head, arms, center torso and legs all have existing criticals assigned for something. Are we to believe that the side torsos are floating emptyboxes for weapons? What is the side torso connected to?

Shoulder actuator.

Remember, internal structure are the bones of the mech. Consider it like human bones: there is bone, and marrow. You can strike the bone without hitting the marrow, but you can also hit the marrow through the bone. An Atlas weighs a huge amount more than lighter mechs, so it's bones are going to be denser and more resistant to damage.

#32 Kobold

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 11:19 PM

View PostYeach, on 08 June 2012 - 05:53 PM, said:

In the Razer Artemis trailer it looks like one of the mechs we can pilot is the "Swayback" or Hunchback with 6 medium lasers instead of AC20.

Lets say you were able to take down all the armor in the right torso;
Logically shooting the UPPER portion of the right torso (with the 6 MLasers) should result in a critical hit taking out one or two or a few of the lasers;

However should shooting at the LOWER portion of the right torso (where no MLasers are located) be able to take out those medium lasers?


The problem is the damage system comes from a tabletop game which abstracts all of this.

#33 AussieGiant

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Posted 08 June 2012 - 11:25 PM

Does anyone know if the Battletech Compendium is online somewhere? That would clear up all these very good questions people have.

#34 rolly

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Posted 16 November 2012 - 07:21 AM

View PostAngelicon, on 13 April 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

I was about to start a similar thread...

Can someone reinforce or refute this statement for me? (regarding TT rules)
* Endo Steel internal structure saves a little weight, but it's biggest benefit is adding "damage soak" criticals to your mech's internals.

Is this pretty much the case, or am I misinterpreting the TT critical hit rules where Endo crits are concerned?


Hmm... I guess the must have changed the rules somewhere. The way I use to play 2nd edition TT was Ferro/Endo and any non equipment critical counted as a reroll. It sped up game play. Hitting a Endo Crit meant your fire spilled onto something vital. Ie. The leg has 2 spots, you automatically re-roll on 5-6, and 1-4 hit an actuator. The way Endo takes up crits is that IS bulky so much so that you can fit less gear by taking up those slots.

Think of it as having fat bones.

#35 Suskis

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 03:54 AM

View PostPht, on 20 March 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

You're misunderstanding the rule, I think. If you penetrate armor and damage something inside (or there is no armor on a section and you've shot that section) you than roll again, to determine if you have actually hit something besides the bones of the mech. If there is only one thing in that section, than obviously, you can only hit that one thing. If you get a penetrating hit or otherwise hit the bones (internals) and you don't get a roll for damaging something, you just blast off some of the bone.


I hope not, as I play this game since 1986.
What I was pointing out is that the "roll again" option if flawed, because if you have only 1 item, it is automatically destroyed. In my example, a LT critical to a Marauder is autmatically a mech destruction because of poor ammo placement.
A single heat sink along with the ammos will halve the chances for mech to blow up! This is silly. There should never have been a "roll again" option. They should have made it so that when you have a critical hit, you roll 2D6 for a location: if it's empty, nothing happened. if it contains an item, it is destroyed. this would make every internal slot equally hittable.





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