153 replies to this topic

[Exilyth]

Of course [manufacturer] only produces [calibre] ammunition not only because that's the size that's easiest to produce for them.
It's like second market refill cartridges for printers: [deity of choice] beware, some other manufacturer might come along and sell [faction] the same ammunition for a cheaper price if it was standardised.

[Pht]

Karyudo-ds, on 22 March 2012 - 12:36 PM, said:

On the other hand Battletech's love for math and page after page of record keeping drives me nuts. Why should I have to add in your cover bonus to my roll? If I miss your cover is irrelevant anyway!

Um, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it should change.

You mention quick strike ... and there's also battle force.

These two already cover the "I like the BT genre but the TT game is to involved for me" players.

Why change the parent game when there's already viable alternatives out there?

Terick, on 23 March 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

If this is the case it is STUPID

Yes, and? Quite a lot of life is blindingly stupid.

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I know House Davion with their love of ACs would have standardized.

Love of AC's does not mean they would have standardized.

It's equally valid to say they love AC's so much that they don't care about the increased logistic concerns they have.

Edited by Pht, 24 March 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[Jake Valeck]

anything past 3057 or so is just fail. bring back the good'ol days of 3025 and you have a TT game worth playing. just my 2 c-bills

[rolling thunder]

The record keeping was a pain so at least we don't have to worry about that with this game?

[Hayden]

I'm basically stuck in the 3025 era. Things are OK until 3050, then we get the clans and all the other wierdness. Way too much Deus Ex Machina.

[Hartsblade]

Hayden, on 25 March 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

I'm basically stuck in the 3025 era. Things are OK until 3050, then we get the clans and all the other wierdness. Way too much Deus Ex Machina.

Well said.

[Leitwolf]

YES, IT NEEDS A REVISION!!!

I have played this game for over 20 years, but now? Stupit Storyline after 3050 and more nonsensical weapon systems and rule extensions.

The gameplay is slow and nobody wants to play graphically outdated maps. There are soooo many "new" great games out there, but BT is doing the same old crap. I have seen so many players changing to other systems like Flames of war or warhammer. It´s frustrating.

The game needs realy a faster missionbased gameplay and attractive game-field... but the "new" rules make everything more complicated and inaccessible. Why should i play 10 hours BT, when I get more minis and action on the table in 2 hours with Flames of War????

I LOVE 3025 BT, but I´m only bored now.... And my friends too...
The developer should show, what other ones does. And how high the quality is out there... like board games and TT from Fantasy Flight Games....

So.... i will game B4Free untill MWOnline will arrive :-)

[Karl Streiger]

I give up to play BT for a time and tried Warhammer...but when you want crappy rules but deluxe but expensive gaming material here you are right.
Real problem of BT playing is time... One way to have faster games was the "development" of clans afterwards the "development" of Heavy, Hyper Rotary weapons to deal more and more damage. Is the same dead end as w40k apokalypse...1h to place all miniatures and after you opfor use a makro canon you need 30min to remove the miniatures...crap.

The usage of Quick-Cards aka BattleForce may a good way to fight big battles but isn't real fun for company size or below.
Another truth i was really impressed when reading through Heavy Gear rules... so i tried a crossover -
first option: for example Atlas is armed with HVAC, AGM, HRP, LLC...
second option: keep the style of CBT - but with some input of HG
* rof for weapons
* less ablative armor - you need some basic damage to hurt a mech, so at least you need a AC-10 to hurt a Atlas
* reducing hitzones into 4 directions
my first "game" test was a failure..i have made the SRMs to powerful - a Commando was able to kill a Awesom e with a single attack run - he hasn't any missile left afterwards but the assault mech was dead...when i found again some time i will try to balance it.

[Jagermeister2]

I believe BT could use a radical makeover. It's an 80s game and really does not compare well with newer TTs.
-Switch to tabletop - with terrain tables instead of the same paper maps we had 25 years ago. Looks better, makes line of sight easier to determine. You can even do that with the current rules.
-Do some new minis instead of using the same 25-year-old sculpts. Maybe even switch to 10 or 15 mm for visual appeal.
-Simplify the rules so there are fewer weapons systems and range bands and faster gameplay. I always found it ridiculous that you need an hour to simulate 10 seconds of in-game time. Simplifying record sheets will also help.
-Do objectives or missions or game modes like you'd expect in MW:O (capture the flag or something), maybe introduce morale rules to force damaged units to withdraw, anything to avoid those last-man-standing battles you always see with BT.
-For the players: PAINT YOUR MECHS!!! I always hated it when people played with unpainted or primed minis. Even if you cannot paint well, at least try. Please.
So, in short: make it faster, make it prettier. Make it fun.

[Arctic Fox]

Jägermeister, on 26 March 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

I believe BT could use a radical makeover. It's an 80s game and really does not compare well with newer TTs.
-Switch to tabletop - with terrain tables instead of the same paper maps we had 25 years ago. Looks better, makes line of sight easier to determine. You can even do that with the current rules.
-Do some new minis instead of using the same 25-year-old sculpts. Maybe even switch to 10 or 15 mm for visual appeal.
-Simplify the rules so there are fewer weapons systems and range bands and faster gameplay. I always found it ridiculous that you need an hour to simulate 10 seconds of in-game time. Simplifying record sheets will also help.
-Do objectives or missions or game modes like you'd expect in MW:O (capture the flag or something), maybe introduce morale rules to force damaged units to withdraw, anything to avoid those last-man-standing battles you always see with BT.
-For the players: PAINT YOUR MECHS!!! I always hated it when people played with unpainted or primed minis. Even if you cannot paint well, at least try. Please.
So, in short: make it faster, make it prettier. Make it fun.

There are already conversion rules for playing on miniature terrain. Also, while the scenario setup doesn't have much to do with the rules themselves, there are forced withdrawal rules under Total Warfare rules to avert fights to the death in scenarios where it is in effect, as well as full-blown morale rules in TacOps.

I don't really see the needs to actually simplify the game. One can always with just 3025-technology if he doesn't like the newer equipment, for example, and there's always Quick-Strike if the base system is too complicated.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 26 March 2012 - 02:11 AM.

[Thorolf Kylesson]

Terick, on 20 March 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

No. All ACs fire single rounds. Yes some of the novel writers wrote that they fire a burst and the artist for one of the TROs did make it look that way. But all AC/s fire single shells or double tap if Ultra ACs or using the rapid fire optional rule.

For a good reference look at the description of the Enforcer in TRO 3025. It specifically mentions that the ammo bay for the enforcer is a magazine style with ten rounds load that can be easily loaded form the rear by a forklift. Made that way to allow for quick changes so the mech cna get back to the fight.

This has also been confirmed on the official website as being ACs shoot one shell with the exception of cluster round for LBs and then Ultra and rapid fire shooting two shells.

I do not believe that is true, sir. I remember AC classes being graded not on their size but on mass being projected. So you could have either a solid slug or a shot gun style scatter affect. I am currently deployed so do not have my books to reference.

[Thorolf Kylesson]

Jägermeister, on 26 March 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

I believe BT could use a radical makeover. It's an 80s game and really does not compare well with newer TTs.
-Switch to tabletop - with terrain tables instead of the same paper maps we had 25 years ago. Looks better, makes line of sight easier to determine. You can even do that with the current rules.
-Do some new minis instead of using the same 25-year-old sculpts. Maybe even switch to 10 or 15 mm for visual appeal.
-Simplify the rules so there are fewer weapons systems and range bands and faster gameplay. I always found it ridiculous that you need an hour to simulate 10 seconds of in-game time. Simplifying record sheets will also help.
-Do objectives or missions or game modes like you'd expect in MW:O (capture the flag or something), maybe introduce morale rules to force damaged units to withdraw, anything to avoid those last-man-standing battles you always see with BT.
-For the players: PAINT YOUR MECHS!!! I always hated it when people played with unpainted or primed minis. Even if you cannot paint well, at least try. Please.
So, in short: make it faster, make it prettier. Make it fun.

To hit upon a couple of your comments.
Modern paper maps are fine. If you want more build terrain.
Iron Wind Metals is always coming out with new minis and there is nothing wrong with pulling a classic out of your hat. Seeing a vintage Marauder or Battlemaster with Dragonfires or Rabid Coyotes is entertaining.
The game can be easily sped up with simple house rules. However, there are people that do not like these so only play buy the written letter.
Missions are fun but you need time and preparation. Last man standing is great for a quick get together.
You should never begrudge a person for a non painted mech. Maybe they didn't have time before the game, maybe they are worried about their talent. If you really think it should be painted mentor them, do not ostracize them.
Them game should be fun for all.

[Yu Kigono]

No.

SATSQ

[Ghostrider45]

your thinking too small a 120mm round for a M1A1 can be picted up an loaded by one peson think A/C 5 is more the size of a 120 mm shell you want to get to a A/C 20 are an 200mm are maybe a16incer but with the short barrel it has no real range! add a fifteen foot to a twenty foot Barrel you have long range but that would make a mech awkward you'd never hit your target!!!!

[Jack Gammel]

Does the table top game need revamping? Besides retconning Dark Age/Age of Destruction? No.

The miltary tech in BT might not line up to modern world equivalents, but the game has already existed in its current format for so long that I'm not sure how many people care. Just because we have modern weapons which are as effective or more effective than BT equivalents does not affect the game negatively. Furthermore, any such reformating could ultimately be cost prohibitive for the players and Catalyst. After all, this isn't Warhammer or Warmachine, and changing editions isn't as simple as just putting out a new edition of the rulebook and posting some errata on the website. Battletech has many MANY technical readouts, rule books, and fluff books detailing historical events, and many of these books also contain special rules etc. which would be altered by any changes to the rules. Also, any significant changes to the rules might also require larger maps.

Anyway, I consider myself a "casual" Battletech table top gamer (if such a thing existed), and I own around ten rulebooks and technical readouts. I personally couldn't afford to update all of these by purchasing new editions.

Edited by Jack Gammel, 26 March 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Jagermeister2]

Thorolf Kylesson, on 26 March 2012 - 03:25 AM, said:

To hit upon a couple of your comments.
Modern paper maps are fine. If you want more build terrain.

Great idea - when we still played Battletech, we did. And many players did not like to play tabletop but preferred the old paper maps. They were fine in 1990 but today I'd expect more from a tabletop game.
Here's our 2010 BT demo table "Operation Silver Eagle". Those who have read the Warrior trilogy will know what this is about:
http://www.hamburger...battletech.html

Quote

Iron Wind Metals is always coming out with new minis and there is nothing wrong with pulling a classic out of your hat. Seeing a vintage Marauder or Battlemaster with Dragonfires or Rabid Coyotes is entertaining.

Don't get me wrong, I love the old "unseen" mechs and many others. But trying to market a game today with designs from 25 years back strikes me as a bad idea. Some of the minis are really ugly and could use a makeover. Consistent scale would also be nice, maybe even keeping weapon barrels the same size for the same gun? I know, that's really asking for too much...

Quote

The game can be easily sped up with simple house rules. However, there are people that do not like these so only play buy the written letter.

That's just it, when we still played a national BT league, we needed a ruleset everyone could agree on.

Quote

Missions are fun but you need time and preparation. Last man standing is great for a quick get together.

I think it would be easy to have both sides place mission objectives to capture or something. Many games do this, Flames of War has a small number of pregenerated generic missions that work great. And "quick" is not really a word that describes your typical BT game.

Quote

You should never begrudge a person for a non painted mech. Maybe they didn't have time before the game, maybe they are worried about their talent. If you really think it should be painted mentor them, do not ostracize them.
Them game should be fun for all.

I would never ridicule anyone for lack of painting skills or mock them for having unpainted mechs.I just don't like unpainted minis on a table. If you have time to play, you should find time to paint. Just a couple of colours. A primary color, a few camo spots or lines, a few details. 10 minutes work. It's all about the visual appeal - if it looks cool, people want to play. Nobody will stop at a convention table with paper maps and unpainted minis.
Anyway, I don't play BT anymore because of those reasons. I would buy a new BT game with a faster pace and less recordkeeping. I'll gladly sacrifice detail for playability. That might also be a way to attract new players. It would definitely attract me.

[Leitwolf]

And this is how the official presentation in Germany looks like:



Do you realy say, this is a fantastic look and interesting or amazing game?????
We have done promotion for BT over years, without support, but IT WAS FRUSTRATING!!!! Becouse everybody say, the game takes TOOO LONG!!!! I think, we need support from the developers!! SUPPORT WITH BETTER RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SiriusBeef]

Like many great games from the 1980's BT does take a long time to play and require strict attention to detailed MICRO management of systems and heat. The good thing was that there was not too much heavy math involved. Star Fleet Battles on the other hand took it to a whole other level. Not surprising considering it predated BT by more than a few years.
Today’s gamers are more Macro management. Instead of marking crits off an ssd you are pulling casualties out of a rank one model at a time. Today’s popular games don’t necessarily take that much less time to play but require an attention to details that young gamers today are not willing to deal with. Everybody now wants a stack of special rules that are printed so small on card that you need a magnifying glass to read them.
Again I’ll state that the makeover was already tried by WizKids and it failed miserably and I would not buy into a Magic style of FU one-up-man-ship which has also already been tried and failed horribly.

[Karl Streiger]

With less computers available it seems that 1980s BattleTech was more a simulation on the board. Works great when a single player controlls a single mech - and a game master made the callculating - works best witjh the duell rules.
Considering you use larger formations for example company vs company .- without gamemaster - you get really fast a terrible headache - believe me i get always a head ache when playing battletech
I never get all the ideas behind the DarkAge debakle, but some mechanism didn't look bad at all - for example the unit activation.

[Leitwolf]

I believe you!
I get always a head ache when playing battletech too, when my enemy needs too long for his move... "UH MY GOD, HE CAN HIT ME ON A ELEVEN... THIS MUST GO BETTER"..... I think THIS is one of the problems... ;-)