63 replies to this topic

[Johannes Falkner]

So I was thinking about how to allow maximum customization without getting into situations where PPC and Gauss Rifle designs get out of hand (See Gausszilla (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Annihilator) specifically ANH-1G and C2 as canon designs). It seems like having a power generation level associated with the engine could provide a solution. So a higher rated engine could provide power to high drain weapons like GRs and PPCs. This would limit the fire rate of designs that sacrifice engine (and armor and ...) to spam such weapons.

Note that I intend the "Limited" fire rate to be more of a limit the number that can be fired simulatneously. So a low rated engine might be able to fire one or two at exactly the same time compared to a 400 rated engine being able to fire maybe 4 simultaneously (maybe 1 GR/PPC per 100 engine rating?) Then have a 1-2 second cool down before the next PPC/GR can fire. For reference the Annihilator uses a 200 rated engine and many of the worst offenders do as well.

This would allow us to have high levels of customization without creating the situation where you get an alpha strike monster turret as the dominant mech in any given class. It would also allow for game balance to be maintained even with high levels of customization. What are your thoughts?

[GaussDragon]

I like your thinking. I was playing around with the idea of a capacitor system to limit alpha-striking and was going to type up a long post in the Suggestions forum about but got sidetracked, but I know exactly what you mean.

Say different weapons require different power draw when they fire, and the engine only allows a certain amount within a timeframe (almost like a heat scale for power consumption, only much, much faster)

Here's some arbitrary numbers:

Engine A peak output per second: 40 units / second
Engine A recharge rate: 10 units / second
PPC power draw: 17 units per shot
PPC recycle time: 4 seconds

Loadout:
Engine A:
4 PPCs

DPS and Max Alpha

• Max Alpha: 2 PPCs a salvo because (2 x 17) 34 < 40 but not 3 per salvo because (3 x 17) 51 > 41
  
• Can still get all 4 off within a 4 second span but only with the capacitor initially at 40
  
• it'd only take 2.8 seconds to charge back up to the 34 units (from the 6 it had left over from the first salvo) to be able to fire the second group of PPCs... at least from an initially full capacitor at 40. Every double-shot salvo would naturally require 3.4 seconds thereafter... which actually means they'd be firing at much less than their recharge rate, but I made these numbers on-the-fly so tweaking would naturally have to occur

[Helmer]

As a Sim person, LOVE IT.


For casual gamers, might be a bit much. But I think it definitely could have possibilities!

[Namwons]

kinda like your reactor can only provide so much amperage, and if you fire too many things at once, you blow a fuse type thing?

[Johannes Falkner]

Yeah, Vlad gave me the idea. In the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, during the trial of position, Vlad could not fire both of his GRs simultaneously ON A CLAN MECH! I was thinking about how to prevent the turret mech when that story point registered and I was like duh.

[00dlez]

Alpha striking is a part of canon as much as it is part of previous games. It's dangerous and deadly.

I loathe jumpsniping and DPS boating types as much as the next guy, but I think based on what's known about the game thus far, we will see these types of loadouts be a little more balanced than in the past.

1. Ammo/Heat
In 12 v 12 games and no respawn, even 40 shots might not be enough. Likewise with heat, you try to keep quad PPCs cranking for more than a few volleys and you'll have some problems

2. You said it yourself, creating these boats can require armor and speed sacrifices, this might be a much larger impact than in previous games based on what the devs have told us about target locating/tracking etc.

3. I would be suprised if there was a recoil element included for massive missle/ballistic launches.

If I had it my way, customizing in the mech bay would be extremely difficult/expensive (cbills, not $). You play stock mechs for the most part or maybe forgo that new Jenner in order to loadout your Dragon more to your liking. But I understand this is more extreme than most players would enjoy.

[Johannes Falkner]

Note that the annihilators are canon variants. The problem I see in this game is that the damage distribution form the tabletop will not be present. So now instead of those GRs and PPCs being distributed from legs to (hopefully not) head, they will all hit the torso. This is my main concern with player mechs and real aiming. The speed and armor sacrifices only matter if you are not one shotted in the first salvo.

[00dlez]

Johannes Falkner, on 21 March 2012 - 10:30 AM, said:

The speed and armor sacrifices only matter if you are not one shotted in the first salvo.

Makes me want to change my play style so that doesn't happen...

[Johannes Falkner]

Oh, and I agree about customization being long and expensive. I want it to be available, I just don't want it to be abused. I also want to avoid the skill negation that can happen when everything becomes min/maxed to absurd levels. I want to be able to run a canon variant and not just be a victim for some ubersnipealphaturretminmaxmech of doom.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I started a forum thread on this topic a while ago, but it quickly died off:

http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

I called it a "Solution" to Laser Boating because it only allows you to fire so much energy-based weaponry in a period of time.

Prosperity Park, on 08 December 2011 - 06:03 PM, said:

Okay, here's a "solution" to laser-boating: Implement a scheme where reactor energy output is limited, so only a certain amount of "laserness" can be fired over a given course of time (for example, say you can only fire 20dmg/sec with a 160-rated engine, or something), and scale this laser energy output with reactor size! Now your heatsinks aren't the only thing that limits your laser-boativity, it's your reactor. Only the biggest Mechs could fire all their energy weapons at the same time.

There, solved.

Edit: (If anyone was interested... I would do this by creating an entity called an "energy reserve" with a certain maximum value which is constantly recharged at a given rate, both as determined by the Mech's engine capacity, and you can only fire an energy weapon when the energy reserve is higher than the energy consumption value of that particular weapon[group] being fired)

Editwo: (I know this is completely non-canon and probably will never find its way into a Battletech game of any sort).

Edited by Prosperity Park, 21 March 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Johannes Falkner]

00dlez, on 21 March 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

Makes me want to change my play style so that doesn't happen...

Given what we know of view and information warfare you will probably not be able to avoid it. Particularly for a good team.

Team composition:
scout plus gausszilla

Scout runs out and lights up targets.
Gausszilla eliminates targets before they know they have been spotted
wash rinse repeat

As long as the team knows the map they should be able to lock it down.

I really want to avoid this situation. If the customization and accuracy of weapons are such that this is not a problem, great. But I would much rather have an idea for how to keep gameplay vibrant than wait for it to become a major gameplay problem.

If this is a solution in search of a problem I will be satisfied.

[El Loco]

00dlez, on 21 March 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

2. You said it yourself, creating these boats can require armor and speed sacrifices, this might be a much larger impact than in previous games based on what the devs have told us about target locating/tracking etc.

I really hope this will hold true. I'm not much of a fan of introducing another mechanism to prevent Gauss and PPC spamming. Gauss is extremely heavy, hardpoint expensive and runs out of ammo pretty quick. PPC is more heat intensive than our CO2 print. And in 3049 you only have single HS. Combined with the mechanisms introduced by Role Warfare, I think we're secure from the danger of spamming these two weapons.

00dlez, on 21 March 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

If I had it my way, customizing in the mech bay would be extremely difficult/expensive (cbills, not $). You play stock mechs for the most part or maybe forgo that new Jenner in order to loadout your Dragon more to your liking. But I understand this is more extreme than most players would enjoy.

QFT!

[00dlez]

Johannes Falkner, on 21 March 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

If this is a solution in search of a problem I will be satisfied.

Given no one on the forums has experienced how the game play will pan out, I think demanding that boaters be nerffed might be premature.
We essentially agree, just I am trusting the Devs a bit more than you are

With regards to all boaters + 1 scout, I feel like that's a bit over simplified. What if the other teams scouts find the boaters first? What if their lone scout gets destroyed leaving the boaters high and blind? I feel like the devs are addressing this (perhaps indirectly, but all the same) with role/information warfare and a good team can overcome a min/max deployment.

See TF2 as an example as to why class/role diversification is the key to victory.

[TheRulesLawyer]

Its completely canon to have mechs that are unable to alpha strike with a weapons load that has high power draw. I fully support it.

[Siilk]

I think I like OP idea. I remember something like that appearing on the MWLL forum, so I think is feels quite natural for BT fans to think of such solution.

00dlez, on 21 March 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

Alpha striking is a part of canon as much as it is part of previous games. It's dangerous and deadly.

Tabletop alphastrike is not firing all weapons at once, it's firing all weapons in one turn, i.e. during 10 seconds. BTW, this is the exact reason for alphastrike damage spread in tabletop: pilot usually cannot hold his aim steady for all that time while firing weapons one by one. Thus, OP idea wouldn't rob us from alphastrike, it would simply reduce the amount of ridiculous "all-at-once" extra focussed group fire without forcing chainfire completely. Effectively, it would help to fight any form of energy weapon boating, including gauss rifles boating.

Edited by Siilk, 21 March 2012 - 11:15 AM.

[Karel Spaten]

Johannes Falkner, on 21 March 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Given what we know of view and information warfare you will probably not be able to avoid it. Particularly for a good team.

Team composition:
scout plus gausszilla

Scout runs out and lights up targets.
Gausszilla eliminates targets before they know they have been spotted
wash rinse repeat

As long as the team knows the map they should be able to lock it down.

That team could use a Commander so that they can spot targets beyond visual range, relay information through the lance etc. Your theoretical "Gausszilla" has presumably sacrificed armour/speed for firepower, so it needs a bodyguard mech in case the enemy break through.

...

At that point, isn't the Role Warfare system working as intended?

[Johannes Falkner]

The way I see it there has to be some kind of adjustment for live play instead of tabletop turn based play. In live play I definitely want my shots to go where I aim them (who trains the mechwarriors in the tabletop game anyway? Imperial stormtroopers?). Unfortunately this leads to a paradigm where steady hands and a high damage weapon will be able to core of headshot mechs way too easily. If they go the continuous beam route with the lasers that somewhat reduces their threat as a concentrated damage dealer/head capper. Travel time for missiles and lock on targets can keep them in line. Ballistic weapons can have an accuracy dispersion from the barrel (+/- 1-2 degrees would do it while still allowing you to hit the broadside of a barn (or have the dispersion increase with AC size so that range is a matter of accuracy not distance, ie AC/2 has near zero dispersion while AC/20 has +/- 5-10 degrees would limit the ranges without limiting travel and allow targeting of big things at longer ranges, ie dropships). Limiting fire rates by energy consumption has a similar effect for PPCs and GRs which are the highest energy consumers on the mechs.

[Johannes Falkner]

Karel Spaten, on 21 March 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

That team could use a Commander so that they can spot targets beyond visual range, relay information through the lance etc. Your theoretical "Gausszilla" has presumably sacrificed armour/speed for firepower, so it needs a bodyguard mech in case the enemy break through.

...

At that point, isn't the Role Warfare system working as intended?

You assume they need a bodyguard, the whole point behind gausszilla is that it can rapidly kill any target. This negates the need for bodyguards. See Hellstar, Warhawk and others for normal speed mechs with full armor (all because of that clan ER PPC). Before the shouting begins, yes I know there is not clan tech in game yet (thank god, balance first, then clans). If you allow them to deal full and accurate damage you WILL see center torso sniping. A hellstar will be able to core any mech 60 tons and lighter (assuming full CT armor facing front) because the max armor is 40 points plus 20 points internal. It could also do that at LONG ranges. If salvo fire and accuracy are both 100% you will turn corners, crest hills, set foot on plains, etc. and die when facing something designed like this. I want to keep them in the game and see mechs like Hellstars, Warhawks, Fafnirs, etc. But I do not want it to be a death sentence for light, medium and heavy mechs (probably mediums and heavies while the lights RTFA, speed is life and armor after all).

[Pht]

Johannes Falkner, on 21 March 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

So I was thinking about how to allow maximum customization without getting into situations where PPC and Gauss Rifle designs get out of hand ...

Something like this would probably help: http://mwomercs.com/...dpost__p__54497

Quote

It seems like having a power generation level associated with the engine could provide a solution. So a higher rated engine could provide power to high drain weapons like GRs and PPCs. This would limit the fire rate of designs that sacrifice engine (and armor and ...) to spam such weapons.

The fusion reactors in 'mechs have no problem generating enough energy to handle all of their weapons and other demands. There are other ways to keep things from degenerating into an arms race that fit the lore quite well.

[Johannes Falkner]

@Pht: Lol, just replied on that thread myself.

As I said, I will be happy if it is not a problem. But I see even canon mechs that can cause problems without extensive refits. Most of the mech weapons and armor layouts presume a much lower level of accuracy than actual players will bring to the game. If every weapon always hits its aimed target there will be little point to having armor on some locations.