ok, 4 GB over 4 sticks... then i'd do what others have suggested with memtest and that should tell you
3
Strange PC Issue, Looking for Insight
Started by Gun Bear, Oct 14 2012 05:21 AM
36 replies to this topic
#21
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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:04 AM
#22
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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:27 AM
The best suggestion I've seen so far is the RAM tests, but there are some easier things you can try before you open the case.
First, some background stuff:
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When a PC doesn't complete POST, but the PSU is supplying the correct voltage, it is usually caused by a component "holding the system down"; generally a short within a component.
However, the fact that it POSTs fine sometimes (even if it crashes shortly thereafter) indicates that probably isn't the case (but still could be). That probably rules out BIOS corruption, too; it is unlikely you'd ever boot if the BIOS was corrupt.
A new CMOS battery is not likely to fix anything like this. If your CMOS wasn't storing your settings any longer, the system would load the defaults, which should still allow your PC to boot just fine, especially on an OEM computer (which I assume you have, since you say the motherboard is built into the case. I will say that I've personally never seen a motherboard that can't be removed. They had to put it in, and I doubt they'd use some permanent means to attach it, because it would make their own repairs more difficult later.)
Some motherboards these days don't have beep codes or diagnostic LEDs. Find out if yours does or not. We know you aren't hearing beeps, but if it has diagnostic LEDs they might help you find the problem.
Does your BIOS show you the temperature of components? If so, check the temps there -- is your CPU getting too hot? It is possible your system needs a good cleaning (compressed air), and maybe your thermal grease may need to be replaced. (It does go bad eventually, especially if your processor runs at the high range of its rated temps, as it probably does with an OEM heatsink and fan system.) You can compare your temps to what the manuf has listed online for the rated temps of your processor. Depending on your motherboard/chipset, you may even need to look for the chipset temp reading. Some boards are known for having a hot chipset, and the chipset heatsink's thermal grease may need to be replaced.
---
Now on to the troubleshooting flow:
A common way to troubleshoot a problem like this is to strip the system, and see if it will boot. Keep it simple at first; unplug all the external components from the front and back ports (keyboard, mouse, network cable, video cable, sound cables, etc). If the system POSTS consistantly without them, try to narrow it down to the specific device or port causing the issue. (Note: some systems won't POST without a monitor attached; if your system has beep codes or diagnostic LEDs, however, and the system is otherwise OK at this point, it should notify you of a video issue with a beep code or LED sequence.) How do you tell if your PC is POSTing if the monitor or audio connected? Watch the disk drive LEDs.
If it isn't an external component, hook them back up, and move to the internal components. Again, keep it simple at first: unplug all the data connects between all drives and the motherboard; even the CD audio cable, if you have one. If the PC POSTs reliably, you'll be getting told that no boot device was found each boot. Now boot to the BIOS, and let it sit there; see if it locks up within an hour. If not, reconnect the harddrive, and try again. If it stops POSTing or crashes, disconnect the HDD and boot to a CD, and test. You're not only testing the drives, but the disk controllers on the motherboard, and the cable, so keep that in mind if you find an issue during this step, and proceed accordingly.
This could be something as simple as corrosion causing problems with hardware detection and initialization. This is common if a removable component has a different kind of metal than the slot it is placed in. Quite commonly a problem with RAM; less so with PCI devices; rare with cable connections. Try simply reseating your RAM. If you notice the metal tabs on the bottom of your DIMMs aren't shiny, or appear dirty, use a clean & soft pencil eraser to "erase" the corrosion off them. As the other poster said, you could have a defective DIMM, too, or maybe even a defective memory slot, so make sure you test for that as he suggested.
If none of those are causing your issues, you'll need to check the PCI devices. If you have integrated video and a PCI video card, you'll want to remove the PCI video card, and hook the monitor up to the integrated video card. (Make sure to have already enabled it in your BIOS if it doesn't auto-enable when you remove the PCI card). Otherwise, you'll want to leave the video card in. Easiest to test them all at once. If the system works without any PCI devices, you know it is one of them, or the PCI bridge itself (unlikely).
If it seems your system works better when some components are removed, but you can't really narrow it down to one device, it may be that your PSU is no longer putting out enough power to run all your devices. Otherwise, if nothing else fixed it, it is likely to be the motherboard.
If you do happen to find some bulging or leaking capacitors, and cannot afford a new system, you may be able to have the defective capacitors replaced cheaply. The person has to know what they're doing, however, because the heat from soldering can easily destroy the delicate pathways and components of a motherboard, so make sure you take it to a qualified electronics repair specialist who knows how to do it properly.
First, some background stuff:
---
When a PC doesn't complete POST, but the PSU is supplying the correct voltage, it is usually caused by a component "holding the system down"; generally a short within a component.
However, the fact that it POSTs fine sometimes (even if it crashes shortly thereafter) indicates that probably isn't the case (but still could be). That probably rules out BIOS corruption, too; it is unlikely you'd ever boot if the BIOS was corrupt.
A new CMOS battery is not likely to fix anything like this. If your CMOS wasn't storing your settings any longer, the system would load the defaults, which should still allow your PC to boot just fine, especially on an OEM computer (which I assume you have, since you say the motherboard is built into the case. I will say that I've personally never seen a motherboard that can't be removed. They had to put it in, and I doubt they'd use some permanent means to attach it, because it would make their own repairs more difficult later.)
Some motherboards these days don't have beep codes or diagnostic LEDs. Find out if yours does or not. We know you aren't hearing beeps, but if it has diagnostic LEDs they might help you find the problem.
Does your BIOS show you the temperature of components? If so, check the temps there -- is your CPU getting too hot? It is possible your system needs a good cleaning (compressed air), and maybe your thermal grease may need to be replaced. (It does go bad eventually, especially if your processor runs at the high range of its rated temps, as it probably does with an OEM heatsink and fan system.) You can compare your temps to what the manuf has listed online for the rated temps of your processor. Depending on your motherboard/chipset, you may even need to look for the chipset temp reading. Some boards are known for having a hot chipset, and the chipset heatsink's thermal grease may need to be replaced.
---
Now on to the troubleshooting flow:
A common way to troubleshoot a problem like this is to strip the system, and see if it will boot. Keep it simple at first; unplug all the external components from the front and back ports (keyboard, mouse, network cable, video cable, sound cables, etc). If the system POSTS consistantly without them, try to narrow it down to the specific device or port causing the issue. (Note: some systems won't POST without a monitor attached; if your system has beep codes or diagnostic LEDs, however, and the system is otherwise OK at this point, it should notify you of a video issue with a beep code or LED sequence.) How do you tell if your PC is POSTing if the monitor or audio connected? Watch the disk drive LEDs.
If it isn't an external component, hook them back up, and move to the internal components. Again, keep it simple at first: unplug all the data connects between all drives and the motherboard; even the CD audio cable, if you have one. If the PC POSTs reliably, you'll be getting told that no boot device was found each boot. Now boot to the BIOS, and let it sit there; see if it locks up within an hour. If not, reconnect the harddrive, and try again. If it stops POSTing or crashes, disconnect the HDD and boot to a CD, and test. You're not only testing the drives, but the disk controllers on the motherboard, and the cable, so keep that in mind if you find an issue during this step, and proceed accordingly.
This could be something as simple as corrosion causing problems with hardware detection and initialization. This is common if a removable component has a different kind of metal than the slot it is placed in. Quite commonly a problem with RAM; less so with PCI devices; rare with cable connections. Try simply reseating your RAM. If you notice the metal tabs on the bottom of your DIMMs aren't shiny, or appear dirty, use a clean & soft pencil eraser to "erase" the corrosion off them. As the other poster said, you could have a defective DIMM, too, or maybe even a defective memory slot, so make sure you test for that as he suggested.
If none of those are causing your issues, you'll need to check the PCI devices. If you have integrated video and a PCI video card, you'll want to remove the PCI video card, and hook the monitor up to the integrated video card. (Make sure to have already enabled it in your BIOS if it doesn't auto-enable when you remove the PCI card). Otherwise, you'll want to leave the video card in. Easiest to test them all at once. If the system works without any PCI devices, you know it is one of them, or the PCI bridge itself (unlikely).
If it seems your system works better when some components are removed, but you can't really narrow it down to one device, it may be that your PSU is no longer putting out enough power to run all your devices. Otherwise, if nothing else fixed it, it is likely to be the motherboard.
If you do happen to find some bulging or leaking capacitors, and cannot afford a new system, you may be able to have the defective capacitors replaced cheaply. The person has to know what they're doing, however, because the heat from soldering can easily destroy the delicate pathways and components of a motherboard, so make sure you take it to a qualified electronics repair specialist who knows how to do it properly.
#23
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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:31 AM
Gun Bear, on 14 October 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:
The issue is intermittent, its about 2 weeks between times it does this and I don't have 8 weeks it would take to test my RAM that way, or enough RAM to go around missing a GB stick.
Is there something common about each time it has happened? Esp environmental: Was it warmer each time? cooler? always when it was humid? (you did say it was storming the one time.)
#24
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- The God
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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:39 AM
My two cents would be the power supply or the ram. Had a bad psu before. It checked out fine on a psu tester, but would randomly crash the pc. It doesn't sound completely like that, so it could be the ram.
#25
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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:39 AM
Before you do anything, check that the heatsink is still firmly attached to the CPU. I had a problem similar to this with a customer, machine kept shutting down or blue screening. It turned out to be his CPU heatsink had broken and was not seated properly. I replaced said HS and all was fine.
#26
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Posted 14 October 2012 - 07:46 AM
Nufsed, on 14 October 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:
Before you do anything, check that the heatsink is still firmly attached to the CPU. I had a problem similar to this with a customer, machine kept shutting down or blue screening. It turned out to be his CPU heatsink had broken and was not seated properly. I replaced said HS and all was fine.
don't think it would run 2 weeks at a time like this.. I had a situation similar to this myself on a really old LGA775 build...
#27
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- LocationGarrison duty on some FWL Planet and itching for action.
Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:41 PM
I got the rig working and had another blue screen, this time it reported a Data Pool Error, I rebooted it in safe mode and ran scandisk which discovered and successfully repaired some errors; I also uninstalled and reinstalled all my hardware drivers and flashed my BIOS. The computer is running normally now and its faster than it has been since this started happening. Thanks all for the tips; I learned a lot and I think I may have solved the issue.
#28
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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:53 PM
After reading all the stuff above im no expert either but i would say your due for a new PC......
#29
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- 1,016 posts
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- LocationGarrison duty on some FWL Planet and itching for action.
Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:02 PM
If only I had a spare $800 sitting around.
#30
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- Wrath
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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:25 PM
Gun Bear, on 14 October 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:
I've had my PC for about 6 years and take excellent care of it - daily virus scans, weekly defragmentation, monthly basic maintenance, the whole 10 yards.
Recently my computer has started behaving oddly and I am certain it is a hardware failure of some sort but cannot place my finger on it and I'm finally stumped so I'm coming here for help. About the 9th of September my computer froze to the point where it forced a hard restart (having to manually power the computer down and back on) but upon restart the computer fired up but would not boot; the monitor behaved as if the computer was not running and the 'beep' my computer makes when it launches the operating system didn't sound. It was just after a severe storm so I figured that the brownout conditions in the area were preventing the computer from getting enough power and the next day the computer started up fine. On the 15th the computer did the same thing (freezing, hard restart, not booting) so I tested the power supply, the readings came back within the right tolerances but the computer still would not boot up, thinking their may have been a short in a connection to the power supply I reseated every power connection using different connecting cables and the computer once more began working fine. On the 9th of this month my computer once again froze forcing a hard restart but this time the computer came back on normally then blue screened with an error message (I couldn't record the error number because it flashed by too quickly) and automatically restarted to launch a system diagnoses which came back determining everything was fine but when I tried to launch the OS it blue screened once more, I tried running a system restore point and the computer froze, blue screened, and now will not boot up again.
What could be wrong with the computer? Is it a power supply issue, a CPU issue? Is something wrong with the operating system?
Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.
Recently my computer has started behaving oddly and I am certain it is a hardware failure of some sort but cannot place my finger on it and I'm finally stumped so I'm coming here for help. About the 9th of September my computer froze to the point where it forced a hard restart (having to manually power the computer down and back on) but upon restart the computer fired up but would not boot; the monitor behaved as if the computer was not running and the 'beep' my computer makes when it launches the operating system didn't sound. It was just after a severe storm so I figured that the brownout conditions in the area were preventing the computer from getting enough power and the next day the computer started up fine. On the 15th the computer did the same thing (freezing, hard restart, not booting) so I tested the power supply, the readings came back within the right tolerances but the computer still would not boot up, thinking their may have been a short in a connection to the power supply I reseated every power connection using different connecting cables and the computer once more began working fine. On the 9th of this month my computer once again froze forcing a hard restart but this time the computer came back on normally then blue screened with an error message (I couldn't record the error number because it flashed by too quickly) and automatically restarted to launch a system diagnoses which came back determining everything was fine but when I tried to launch the OS it blue screened once more, I tried running a system restore point and the computer froze, blue screened, and now will not boot up again.
What could be wrong with the computer? Is it a power supply issue, a CPU issue? Is something wrong with the operating system?
Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.
after you get it to boot try these.
http://download.cnet...4-10537825.html
http://download.cnet...4-10629429.html
they are free, if you still have issues and cant find it.
1. pull out all of your memory except the minimum to start. then see if it boots and works. if it does you have a memory problem. also the memory diagnostic will show it.
2. your power supply has rails that power your devices. while operating check the voltages on your devices by using the unused plugs.
3. remove your video card and use the onboard card (if available), if not borrow a friends old card.
4. if your memory and video card are not the cause try booting from the cd rom with the os.
since your problems began with a storm i would say the power supply is most likely the issue. once you get it up and running i would invest in a uninteruptable power supply.
#31
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- Wrath
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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:39 PM
Sgt Minuteman, on 14 October 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:
Download Ultimate Boot disk
http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/
You can test everthing. Even restoring and saving BIOS to disc..
Over 100 free utilities. I use it test hardware, to reset forgotten passwords on PC, to stressing CPUs, to partitioning hard drives....
http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/
You can test everthing. Even restoring and saving BIOS to disc..
Over 100 free utilities. I use it test hardware, to reset forgotten passwords on PC, to stressing CPUs, to partitioning hard drives....
i have this as well, but it may be a bit op for someone just learning diagnostics.
i have seen power supply and video cards do this. havent seen a bios do it to a computer. the odds of a hdd failure causing the power supply to fail is slim but possible, and easily solved by unplugging that drive and booting up on the os disk.
Gun Bear, on 15 October 2012 - 11:41 PM, said:
I got the rig working and had another blue screen, this time it reported a Data Pool Error, I rebooted it in safe mode and ran scandisk which discovered and successfully repaired some errors; I also uninstalled and reinstalled all my hardware drivers and flashed my BIOS. The computer is running normally now and its faster than it has been since this started happening. Thanks all for the tips; I learned a lot and I think I may have solved the issue.
no problem. i will see you on the plains of battle..... unless you get the drop on me lol
Edited by Justin Xang Allard, 16 October 2012 - 01:36 PM.
#32
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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:04 PM
Gunbear, if you need to look check the below links, many are refurbs but you can get a good deal. Hope you don't need a new one but does sound like you need one.
http://outlet.lenovo.../Portals/Outlet
http://www.dell.com/outlet
http://h71016.www7.h...psg/sem_g/26_53
http://outlet.lenovo.../Portals/Outlet
http://www.dell.com/outlet
http://h71016.www7.h...psg/sem_g/26_53
#33
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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:05 PM
Psu or the boards dead, ive had both happen in the past.
#34
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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:40 PM
KILL IT WITH FIRE!!! sorry dunno whats wrong with it, but hope you laughed a little!
#35
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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:55 PM
Gun Bear, on 14 October 2012 - 05:21 AM, said:
I've had my PC for about 6 years and take excellent care of it - daily virus scans, weekly defragmentation, monthly basic maintenance, the whole 10 yards.
Recently my computer has started behaving oddly and I am certain it is a hardware failure of some sort but cannot place my finger on it and I'm finally stumped so I'm coming here for help. About the 9th of September my computer froze to the point where it forced a hard restart (having to manually power the computer down and back on) but upon restart the computer fired up but would not boot; the monitor behaved as if the computer was not running and the 'beep' my computer makes when it launches the operating system didn't sound. It was just after a severe storm so I figured that the brownout conditions in the area were preventing the computer from getting enough power and the next day the computer started up fine. On the 15th the computer did the same thing (freezing, hard restart, not booting) so I tested the power supply, the readings came back within the right tolerances but the computer still would not boot up, thinking their may have been a short in a connection to the power supply I reseated every power connection using different connecting cables and the computer once more began working fine. On the 9th of this month my computer once again froze forcing a hard restart but this time the computer came back on normally then blue screened with an error message (I couldn't record the error number because it flashed by too quickly) and automatically restarted to launch a system diagnoses which came back determining everything was fine but when I tried to launch the OS it blue screened once more, I tried running a system restore point and the computer froze, blue screened, and now will not boot up again.
What could be wrong with the computer? Is it a power supply issue, a CPU issue? Is something wrong with the operating system?
Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.
Recently my computer has started behaving oddly and I am certain it is a hardware failure of some sort but cannot place my finger on it and I'm finally stumped so I'm coming here for help. About the 9th of September my computer froze to the point where it forced a hard restart (having to manually power the computer down and back on) but upon restart the computer fired up but would not boot; the monitor behaved as if the computer was not running and the 'beep' my computer makes when it launches the operating system didn't sound. It was just after a severe storm so I figured that the brownout conditions in the area were preventing the computer from getting enough power and the next day the computer started up fine. On the 15th the computer did the same thing (freezing, hard restart, not booting) so I tested the power supply, the readings came back within the right tolerances but the computer still would not boot up, thinking their may have been a short in a connection to the power supply I reseated every power connection using different connecting cables and the computer once more began working fine. On the 9th of this month my computer once again froze forcing a hard restart but this time the computer came back on normally then blue screened with an error message (I couldn't record the error number because it flashed by too quickly) and automatically restarted to launch a system diagnoses which came back determining everything was fine but when I tried to launch the OS it blue screened once more, I tried running a system restore point and the computer froze, blue screened, and now will not boot up again.
What could be wrong with the computer? Is it a power supply issue, a CPU issue? Is something wrong with the operating system?
Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.
I had the exact same issue. Techy guy I know (After I explained the problem) said it was a BIOS issue. A new MotherBoard should fix you right up.
#36
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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:58 PM
Gun Bear, on 14 October 2012 - 05:43 AM, said:
If its the motherboard I'll need to buy a new rig since the MB is built into the case.
I built a new system (without a case, kept my old one) for $600 on NewEgg. i5 Quad 3.1, 16GB RAM, New CD/DvD drive, 320GB HDD, 500w PSU, and an MSI Military Class III MB. Adding a new case will run you about $50 - $150, depending on what you want out of it. Ask, and I'd be happy to share my build.
#37
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Posted 16 October 2012 - 05:02 PM
your problem is clear; its 6 years old, any or all those things could be bad.
sorry man .
sorry man .
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