35 replies to this topic

[Two Hands]

So I've been looking around and I've been seeing people post around about the statistics of some 'Mechs. Calling them garbage compared to the Clan's Omni-'Mechs. Now I'm not a lore hound and I only know the basics of the BattleTech universe since I entered the MechWarrior franchise at MW4.

Now the two questions I got are the following:

1. If the InnerSphere 'Mechs were so bad as people paint them out to be...(I know that 'Mechs are an extremely high-tech marvel of engineering)... how did the InnerSphere become so technologically advanced in their 'Mech building? I mean how did those "Wolfhound" 'Mechs become 'Mechs like the Awesome, Thor, etc.

My guess are that they got hold of Clan technology but how would they even get hold of that technology if they couldn't salvage any destroyed 'Mech, they almost couldn't even fight back with the state that their 'Mechs were in. That is my perception. I'm also considering technological advance as the Germans did back in WW2 from a Panzer II to a King Tiger.

What happened during the Clan invasion?

2. I hate to ask this question to the general discussion but why doesn't a General Lore section exist?


TL;DR: What happened during the Clan Invasion and how did the InnerSphere become so technologically advanced to stop their invasion?

P.S Sorry for any mistakes, English is not my native language.

[WTChance]

The short answer is summed up by better tactics. By disregarding, or even turning clan bidding and fighting styles against them (clan don't tend to go physical with mechs, bid down to lowest possible numbers), the inner sphere forces were able to slow, stop and begin gaining foot holds back from the clan. This included salvage from what few victories they could achieve.

Wolf's Dragoons helped too.

Believe it or not, that's the simple answer.

[osito]

clan tactics and spread of newer tech helped the most to turn the tide. In the beginning of the invasion they came from the periphery, The regiments the houses have out in the periphery are old designs and not their best units. The best were either near the house borders or in the center of the houses for strikes/counter strikes. Also the gdl core of star league tech is still going into production and only the elites are getting any real amounts of the stuff. Then the clan tactics, they saw the i.s as inferior and often times had a single star(5 mechs) going against a company and winning. most clans also hated jump jets they see them as unhonorable. The i.s used jumpers to close rapidly alpha and jump out.

[Shamsterdam]

Number 1 is a big one. The encyclopedia @ www.sarna.net is your best bet.
Here is my cliffnotes version. Its not perfect, but I did read all the novels and can give you a quick run-down:

• There was once a Star League with a bunch of different houses, ruled by House Cameron.
  
• House Cameron was killed off by Stefan Amaris.
  
• Stefan Amaris was then killed by a military coup.
  
• The Clans were the front line combat units, who decided that instead of fighting in a civil war to see which Great House would take over for the Camerons, they would leave the Inner Sphere.
  
• The communication companies that ran the interstellar communications network then decided to merge together to create a neutral organization. They called it Comstar.
  
• All the great houses then fought each other in a series of civil wars known as the Succession War's, essentially bombing themselves into the dark ages. The different factions blew up each others production facilities, hospitals, and libraries to the point that the only working equipment was the old junk the Clans left behind.
  
• In the meantime, a man named Conrad Toyama took over Comstar and turned it into a religion.
  
• Comstar basically traveled the galaxy searching for all the surviving technology and squirelled it away to create a secret army they could use to one day take over the galaxy.
  
• Eventually, some of the surviving tech (a big old hard drive) was found by the Gray Death Legion, who then sent it around the galaxy so that Comstar couldn't keep it secret.
  
• This allowed the different great houses to start building quality stuff again.
  
• Eventually, the Clans came back. Most of the great houses took their shiny new mechs and used them to slow the Clan invasion long enough for Comstar to mobilize their secret army.
  
• Comstar made a bet with the Clans that if they beat them on the planet Tukayyid, the Clans would stop invading towards Earth and would be happy with the territory they conquered for at least 15 years.
  
• The Clans accepted the bet, didn't deploy enough forces or fought badly (think honorable knights in shining armor vs snipers in the trees), and eventually lost to Comstar.
  
• Comstar then decided to take its shiny new army out and use it take over the galaxy since everyone else was ravaged by the Clans.
  
• At that point, the leader of Comstar's army assassinated the ruler of Comstar because that was kind of a mean thing to do.
  
• All the religious nutjobs then left Comstar in protest and made the "Word of Blake".
  
• Comstar and the rest of the Inner Sphere then spent the next few years sharing technology, learning from the Clan stuff they captured, and generally improving tech by leaps and bounds. All while raiding Clan territory and killing off Clan Smoke Jaguar, since they were trying to find a way around the bet they lost against Comstar.
  
• Eventually, Clan Nova Cat, Clan Ghost Bear, and half of Clan Wolf join the Inner Sphere, and Clan Diamond Shark sold tech to the highest bidder, providing even more knowledge.

Then Mechwarrior 4 starts and the Clans and the inner Sphere are pretty much even.

As far as a Lore Forum, that would be sweet.

Edited by Shamsterdam, 13 March 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[SnowDragon]

There were FAR less clanners than IS pilots. Clanner pilots had to fight for their name, and their right to pilot. And they were honourable. Many a time a Clan Star Colonel would challenge an IS force to an honourable duel of units, only for the IS 'Mechs to attack their camp that night. If you've played MW4, you know that mission.

[Adridos]

Two Hands, on 13 March 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

1. If the InnerSphere 'Mechs were so bad as people paint them out to be...(I know that 'Mechs are an extremely high-tech marvel of engineering)... how did the InnerSphere become so technologically advanced in their 'Mech building? I mean how did those "Wolfhound" 'Mechs become 'Mechs like the Awesome, Thor, etc.

Ahem, Thor is a Clan mech.

As for the beating of Clans, well... they adapted. But don't get fooled. If not for the technology Com Star (a big telephone company that has an army of very old, perfect mechs and holds Terra and some systems around it) fielded, IS would've been screwed. The mechs they designed were the same as omni's (both have pros and cons), but Clans outfitted them with improved long lost technology, which was better in all aspects from the IS one.

Then, IS got it's hands on the tech (double heat sinks, XL engines, ER weapons, etc.), outfitted their mechs with it and after addapting to Clan tactics, they defeated them.

[WTChance]

Which, Two Hands, all boils down to the I.S. was both lucky, and desperate. That includes Comstar.

On an additional note, a Lore section would be awesome. Even if it only went as far as 'today', 3049. I know the daily news feed covers thY a bit, but its like frosting, without the cake underneath.

[Seabear]

The batlemech as we know is descendeed from the original Mackie design. The Wolfhound is a relative new comer . At Sarna.net check out the SLDF mechs of 2750 to see what used to be . Then subtract a couple of hundred years of warfare and destruction and you will see where we are today. Some of our designs are hundreds of years old. Some individual mechs are hundreds of years old. For now it would be best to ignore lostech items and weapons (other than to drool over and dream), and focus on standard weaponry of our time.
As to how we will slow the clans (about which we are now completely in the dark), look at history and you will see that high technology is often defeated by those who have a simpler weapon and know how to use it well. The armored knights of France (the mechs of their day) fell before a weapon that had been around for 1000's of years, the longbow. The English just "weaponized" it as a means for a lightly armed yeoman taking on the higheest tech of the day.

Edited by Seabear, 13 March 2012 - 03:13 PM.

[Zarkan]

The innersphere could martial greater man power and material resources to the battle. Additionally clan tactics encouraged quick strike designs with little staying power and often less then stellar field repair considerations in their designs.

[Stormwolf]

Two Hands, on 13 March 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

So I've been looking around and I've been seeing people post around about the statistics of some 'Mechs. Calling them garbage compared to the Clan's Omni-'Mechs. Now I'm not a lore hound and I only know the basics of the BattleTech universe since I entered the MechWarrior franchise at MW4.

MW4 isn't all that big on the backstory, you've only seen the Fedcom Civil war play out in those years (10+ years after the invasion)

Quote

Now the two questions I got are the following:

1. If the InnerSphere 'Mechs were so bad as people paint them out to be...(I know that 'Mechs are an extremely high-tech marvel of engineering)... how did the InnerSphere become so technologically advanced in their 'Mech building? I mean how did those "Wolfhound" 'Mechs become 'Mechs like the Awesome, Thor, etc.


My guess are that they got hold of Clan technology but how would they even get hold of that technology if they couldn't salvage any destroyed 'Mech, they almost couldn't even fight back with the state that their 'Mechs were in. That is my perception. I'm also considering technological advance as the Germans did back in WW2 from a Panzer II to a King Tiger.

The Inner Sphere was originally pretty advanced, however the constant wars bombed them back to the Dark Ages. A memory core with tons of lost technology (Lostech) was found a couple of years before the Clan invasion. Most advanced tech came from that core. Recovered Clan tech helped pave the way for a number of newer technologies.

The Clans on the other hand never lost any of the technology from the Star League era, they even improved on the tech from that timeperiod.

Quote

What happened during the Clan invasion?

There's a number of novels that revolve around this timeperiod but I'll give you a shortened recap.

The ancestors of the Clans left the inner Sphere after the fall of the Star League. Those guys went to a unknown part of space where they would found Clans and improve the tech they had.

The Inner Sphere houses all wanted to rule the Inner Sphere and fought four massive wars called the Succession wars.

The Inner Sphere los the ability to produce more advanced tech after a few centuries of constant war. A remnant of the Star League communication network (now known as Comstar) was hoarding tons of tech from that era and maintained the knowhow to produce that level of tech.

Meanwhile, the Clans split into two camps, the Wardens and Crusaders. The Crusaders wanted to invade the Inner Sphere to establish a new Star League. The Wardens wanted to return to the Inner Sphere when the Inner Sphere was ready, they would go as teachers and protect them inside or outside threats.

This ofcourse strained relations of both camps. Clan Wolf proposed to send a scout unit to see the state of the Inner Sphere first hand (they only scouted the undeveloped border worlds prior to that). That unit would be known as Wolf's Dragoons. The Dragoons collected information for decades, but they eventually got new orders from the Clan Wolf leadership. They were to prepare the Inner Sphere for a invasion, they were also told to ignore any further orders.

Fast forward a couple of decades, the Helm memory core was discovered as I explained earlier.
The Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth (house Davion and Steiner) merged into the Federated Commonwealth (they eventually split again in MW4). A Comstar exploration ship (the Outbound light) misjumped and ended up in Clan space, they had to misfortune to run into the most hardcore Crusader Clan (Clan Smoke Jaguar).

The Smoke Jaguars fabricated the "evidence" that the Federated Commonwealth was the first step in the formation of a evil Star League and that they would attack the Clans once they were strong enough. It was put to a vote to invade, only Clan Wolf voted against a invasion. Clan Wolf even contested the vote with a trial of refusal, but the odds were so stacked against them that they couldn't win.

The leader of all Clans (Ilkahn) was elected from Clan Smoke Jaguar, they wanted to shame Clan Wolf even further by having them participate in the invasion (reasoning that they should invade because the founder of all Clans was attached to Clan Wolf).

Fast forward one year, the Clans arrived in the Inner Sphere and smash right through any and all opposition. Clan Wolf takes a Inner Sphere warrior named Phelan Kell as a bondsman and introduce him into Clan Wolf (to the dismay of the Crusader Clans). A recall of all Wolf's Dragoons was ordered, only one of them arrived (Natasha Kerensky, the most badass Clan warrior ever).

At any rate the Inner Sphere win a few battles and hold a few planets near or behind the Clan lines. Clan Smoke Jaguar does the unthinkable and destroy a city with a one of their warships from orbit (a big no no in the Battletech universe). This cements the image that all Clans evil and makes the Inner Sphere even more resentful of them.

But luck has it that the Ilkahn got killed and the Clan Wolf Khan got elected to Ilkhan (a Crusader plot to install a Crusader minded Wolf warrior in the Khan position). This backfires when Natasha Kerensky gets promoted to Khan (you don't get more Warden then her).

Ilkhan Ulric Kerensky then hatches a plan a with a likeminded Comstar leader to halt the invasion for 15 years so the Inner Sphere can close the technological gap a bit more.

This issue was resolved in a proxy battle for earth know as the battle for Tukayyid. This essentially ended the invasion until the Great Refusal at Strana Mechty.

There is a ton more backstory to the this, I've only covered 1% of the big picture here.

Quote

2. I hate to ask this question to the general discussion but why doesn't a General Lore section exist?

TL;DR: What happened during the Clan Invasion and how did the InnerSphere become so technologically advanced to stop their invasion?

P.S Sorry for any mistakes, English is not my native language.

The Inner Sphere didn't stop the original invasion, Clan Wolf, Comstar and to a lesser extent Wolf's Dragoons did.

Now the Great Refusal is another story.


I'm really tired right now and I didn't spellcheck

Edited by Stormwolf, 13 March 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Nick Makiaveli]

Not much to add, except to the OP: Don't worry, your English is better than most native speakers

[Felix Dracc]

While yes they clans were vastly superior warrior for warrior in general, much of there initial success came from the speed of there advance often a world would be attacked and fall so fast there was no hope to send reinforcements to help them. Add in the fact they had warships and would attack jumpships some thing the inner sphere forces wouldn't do made things even tougher on them if a force jumped in and found even a light frigate at the jump point it would be lost. But despite this and other facts mentioned above the clan wasn't infallible pride was a major fault of there's, I honestly find it funny that when the clans first showed up they expected the IS to know about there was of war and follow them and then would get into a snit when the IS didn't.

The IS's big edge was often in unorthodox tactics pirate jump points quick strikes and such would let them steal some tech along with if you've read the novels some carefully set up duels. It really wasn't until the wolf's dragoons stepped up and started giving a lot of information that the IS really began to fight back at least with much success the loss of the Ikhan helped matters as well but even with all this one Succesor state was all but destroyed and Kurita almost lost there capitol if it wasn't for help from Davion mercs.

[Two Hands]

Shamsterdam, on 13 March 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Number 1 is a big one. The encyclopedia @ www.sarna.net is your best bet.
Here is my cliffnotes version. Its not perfect, but I did read all the novels and can give you a quick run-down:

• There was once a Star League with a bunch of different houses, ruled by House Cameron.
  
• House Cameron was killed off by Stefan Amaris.
  
• Stefan Amaris was then killed by a military coup.
  
• The Clans were the front line combat units, who decided that instead of fighting in a civil war to see which Great House would take over for the Camerons, they would leave the Inner Sphere.
  
• The communication companies that ran the interstellar communications network then decided to merge together to create a neutral organization. They called it Comstar.
  
• All the great houses then fought each other in a series of civil wars known as the Succession War's, essentially bombing themselves into the dark ages. The different factions blew up each others production facilities, hospitals, and libraries to the point that the only working equipment was the old junk the Clans left behind.
  
• In the meantime, a man named Conrad Toyama took over Comstar and turned it into a religion.
  
• Comstar basically traveled the galaxy searching for all the surviving technology and squirelled it away to create a secret army they could use to one day take over the galaxy.
  
• Eventually, some of the surviving tech (a big old hard drive) was found by the Gray Death Legion, who then sent it around the galaxy so that Comstar couldn't keep it secret.
  
• This allowed the different great houses to start building quality stuff again.
  
• Eventually, the Clans came back. Most of the great houses took their shiny new mechs and used them to slow the Clan invasion long enough for Comstar to mobilize their secret army.
  
• Comstar made a bet with the Clans that if they beat them on the planet Tukayyid, the Clans would stop invading towards Earth and would be happy with the territory they conquered for at least 15 years.
  
• The Clans accepted the bet, didn't deploy enough forces or fought badly (think honorable knights in shining armor vs snipers in the trees), and eventually lost to Comstar.
  
• Comstar then decided to take its shiny new army out and use it take over the galaxy since everyone else was ravaged by the Clans.
  
• At that point, the leader of Comstar's army assassinated the ruler of Comstar because that was kind of a mean thing to do.
  
• All the religious nutjobs then left Comstar in protest and made the "Word of Blake".
  
• Comstar and the rest of the Inner Sphere then spent the next few years sharing technology, learning from the Clan stuff they captured, and generally improving tech by leaps and bounds. All while raiding Clan territory and killing off Clan Smoke Jaguar, since they were trying to find a way around the bet they lost against Comstar.
  
• Eventually, Clan Nova Cat, Clan Ghost Bear, and half of Clan Wolf join the Inner Sphere, and Clan Diamond Shark sold tech to the highest bidder, providing even more knowledge.

Then Mechwarrior 4 starts and the Clans and the inner Sphere are pretty much even.


As far as a Lore Forum, that would be sweet.

This was a really awesome answer! Thanks man!

[Two Hands]

Stormwolf, on 13 March 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

MW4 isn't all that big on the backstory, you've only seen the Fedcom Civil war play out in those years (10+ years after the invasion)



The Inner Sphere was originally pretty advanced, however the constant wars bombed them back to the Dark Ages. A memory core with tons of lost technology (Lostech) was found a couple of years before the Clan invasion. Most advanced tech came from that core. Recovered Clan tech helped pave the way for a number of newer technologies.

The Clans on the other hand never lost any of the technology from the Star League era, they even improved on the tech from that timeperiod.



There's a number of novels that revolve around this timeperiod but I'll give you a shortened recap.

The ancestors of the Clans left the inner Sphere after the fall of the Star League. Those guys went to a unknown part of space where they would found Clans and improve the tech they had.

The Inner Sphere houses all wanted to rule the Inner Sphere and fought four massive wars called the Succession wars.

The Inner Sphere los the ability to produce more advanced tech after a few centuries of constant war. A remnant of the Star League communication network (now known as Comstar) was hoarding tons of tech from that era and maintained the knowhow to produce that level of tech.

Meanwhile, the Clans split into two camps, the Wardens and Crusaders. The Crusaders wanted to invade the Inner Sphere to establish a new Star League. The Wardens wanted to return to the Inner Sphere when the Inner Sphere was ready, they would go as teachers and protect them inside or outside threats.

This ofcourse strained relations of both camps. Clan Wolf proposed to send a scout unit to see the state of the Inner Sphere first hand (they only scouted the undeveloped border worlds prior to that). That unit would be known as Wolf's Dragoons. The Dragoons collected information for decades, but they eventually got new orders from the Clan Wolf leadership. They were to prepare the Inner Sphere for a invasion, they were also told to ignore any further orders.

Fast forward a couple of decades, the Helm memory core was discovered as I explained earlier.
The Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth (house Davion and Steiner) merged into the Federated Commonwealth (they eventually split again in MW4). A Comstar exploration ship (the Outbound light) misjumped and ended up in Clan space, they had to misfortune to run into the most hardcore Crusader Clan (Clan Smoke Jaguar).

The Smoke Jaguars fabricated the "evidence" that the Federated Commonwealth was the first step in the formation of a evil Star League and that they would attack the Clans once they were strong enough. It was put to a vote to invade, only Clan Wolf voted against a invasion. Clan Wolf even contested the vote with a trial of refusal, but the odds were so stacked against them that they couldn't win.

The leader of all Clans (Ilkahn) was elected from Clan Smoke Jaguar, they wanted to shame Clan Wolf even further by having them participate in the invasion (reasoning that they should invade because the founder of all Clans was attached to Clan Wolf).

Fast forward one year, the Clans arrived in the Inner Sphere and smash right through any and all opposition. Clan Wolf takes a Inner Sphere warrior named Phelan Kell as a bondsman and introduce him into Clan Wolf (to the dismay of the Crusader Clans). A recall of all Wolf's Dragoons was ordered, only one of them arrived (Natasha Kerensky, the most badass Clan warrior ever).

At any rate the Inner Sphere win a few battles and hold a few planets near or behind the Clan lines. Clan Smoke Jaguar does the unthinkable and destroy a city with a one of their warships from orbit (a big no no in the Battletech universe). This cements the image that all Clans evil and makes the Inner Sphere even more resentful of them.

But luck has it that the Ilkahn got killed and the Clan Wolf Khan got elected to Ilkhan (a Crusader plot to install a Crusader minded Wolf warrior in the Khan position). This backfires when Natasha Kerensky gets promoted to Khan (you don't get more Warden then her).

Ilkhan Ulric Kerensky then hatches a plan a with a likeminded Comstar leader to halt the invasion for 15 years so the Inner Sphere can close the technological gap a bit more.

This issue was resolved in a proxy battle for earth know as the battle for Tukayyid. This essentially ended the invasion until the Great Refusal at Strana Mechty.

There is a ton more backstory to the this, I've only covered 1% of the big picture here.



The Inner Sphere didn't stop the original invasion, Clan Wolf, Comstar and to a lesser extent Wolf's Dragoons did.

Now the Great Refusal is another story.


I'm really tired right now and I didn't spellcheck

Wow, I've learned so much. Thanks a bunch because these things are really interesting.

[Polymorphyne]

Yeah, I thought it was pretty stupid that the clans called the Inner Sphere forces dishonourable for failing to follow a set of rules that the clans came up with in exile while the Inner Sphere did not even know the Clans existed.

Also, the clans all agreed upon those rules in the early days of the clans- the Inner Sphere houses never agreed to abide by those rules and were not consulted when those rules were written.


Also, I would rather not have a seperate "lore" section so much- If mechwarrior is done right, the lore isn't shoved off into a corner- its inseperable from everything else and is eveywhere.

[SnowDragon]

With any luck.

[Hardcover]

Honestly, I don't think a separate lore section is needed, beyond a basic primer like what you've seen here. If people are really interested past that (and there are lots of folks who won't be, they just want to drive around big stompy robots and to use them to smash other peoples' big stompy robots), point them at Sarna. Easiest way, and to be honest, I'd rather see the devs focused on the actual gameplay rather than rehashing backstory for the Nth time, especially when there's resources out there for it.

[Ansel]

Since I didn't see anything explaning the Mech manufacturing question I thought I'd jump in.

Im sure someone will point out anything if i'm wrong.

Tthe places that make the mechs run on autopilot.

The workers don't really know how the factory works all that they do is keep it running and try to keep it repaired as well as they can.

And while new designs like the wolfhound and hatchetman came online they were built useing the same technology that other mechs were built with, they still used the old fusion reactors and the same old model weapons.

They still couldn't produce anything that even came close to the performance of the old Star League mechs.

Another example of this is the K-F drive that allows faster than light travel, the shipyards that produce this engine run automaticly and again the workers just keep the machine working and running they couldn't repair the plant if it became too damaged for instance.

In both cases this also meant that new factories could not be built and is part of the reason that the mech producing worlds like Hesperus II with the Defiance Industries Battlemech factory have been fought over so much.

It is also the reason that the Aries-conventions were put in place. To ensure that the production facilites and populations that maintain them were preserved.

Again feel free to correct anything I made a mistake on.

[Exilyth]

Another aspect of the clan invasion is that the IS worked toghether at least this time while the clans where racing for Terra. Conquering Terra would have enabled the capturing clan to become the ilClan, leader of all other clans.

[Major Rampage]

New factories can actually be built, however since it's a huge factory it's a big target. Most facilities get bombed out of existence before they ever complete a mech. The time, skill and expense to build a new factory is incredibly hard to get.

I don't think that factories are on autopilot, at least not for everything, otherwise there would be no personal techs for mechs. The workers probably know how to do their job, but nothing beyond that. The information is so tightly kept that no House is willing to risk it getting out, even though they largely have the same hardware. Autopilot factories would also prevent modifications from being made to an assembly line.

Most military technology was created by private firms. Several different brands of weapons that all do the same thing but in different ways. Often these firms would get bought out, sold to cover debt, or blown out of existence. Liao in particular has had difficulties in keeping manufacturing locations functioning and producing.

So, to reiterate, new factories can be built, but they are a huge target and a tremendous pain in the *** to do so.

As for the K-F drive, because of the advanced physics involved larger drives are significantly harder to build. Smaller drives are build able, but they take forever and aren't very efficient. Nothing on the scale of a Jumpship can be produced in the timeframe that the game will be based in. The New Avalon Institute of Science is working on it, and will eventually succeed enough to make a few new ships, but largely it is based on the scientific difficulty around creating the technology.