113 replies to this topic

[Zakatak]

I'm sure anybody who has played Deus Ex or Crysis 2 knows what I am talking about. If you don't:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Transhumanism

To what degree, if any degree, do you approve of changing the human condition through bioengineering and technology?

I'm 100% okay with it so long as it doesn't threaten a singularity, cause societal stagnation, or where it gets to the point where we are less human then we are machine. I'd love to live healthily and strongly for over 200 years, but I wouldn't want to have my brain uploaded so I could live forever as a computer, assuming such a thing is possible.

Edited by Zakatak, 14 October 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[MasterofBlasters]

Who wouldn't want to replace this frail human form with something better?

[SmithMPBT]

We're behaviorally controlled enough by our monetary shackles. Why give them a literal On/Off Switch for our brains?

[Samaritan]

Hon. Mechwarriors;

The difficulties associated with the Transhuman Singularity lye within the existential materialism of the depraved human condition. Man through Man's efforts, can not build a stable happily ever after. The fallen creature must be saved by the Creator. Only the non meritorious exercise of volition by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ alone can accomplish this. Any other attempt will result in an Antonomian or Legalistic arrogance best expressed here...



Seriously though, eugenics, genetics, and transhumanism are all concepts promoted by the same people and tax exempt foundations over the past few decades. Who are you going to trust with reading and writing who you are?

Respectfully

Samaritan

Edited by Samaritan, 14 October 2012 - 05:22 PM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Humans have never been and will never be content with living in a purely natural state of affairs.
There are still many arguments against cloning, genetic engineering and artificial intelligence studies but, over time, the promise of progress and scientific advancement - as well financial gain... - will overcome the people whom can make it all happen.

If you think that social inequality is a grave issue right now, well, it will only get worse.

[D3lness]

Lets not forget that trans-humanism doesn't have to mean you get shoved in a robot or have any kind of mechanical parts at all. It is more breaking free of the body/conditions we're born into. Trans-humanism can boil down to letting a furry getting a tail and ears grafted on if that is how they feel the should be physically. It treats the human body as nothing more than a shell for output and input for the human conscience inside.

While I do agree that we should be wary as to where these technologies come from I feel we should still openly accept (not necessarily take part in) the concept. Before we fully commit to the motion we need to move past other common social issues (e.g. xenophobia, material greed) to avoid any damages. Some people may argue that shedding the human form or altering how we live our lives out would remedy these problems, but I'll argue that they will get worse. People will find other things to fault people with such as what alterations they made to themselves or where they are from. With these new and improved conditions these conflicts will only escalate since old ideals will now last longer due to the idealists living longer. In other words, the negativity that exists now will simply last longer and be given a greater chance to dig in.

Improving life by curing aging or making people pseudo-immortal is great, but lets make sure we tackle our problems in the right order. Lets figure out how to live together first and then we can work on living together for significantly longer.

[MrHacknslash]

Cyborgs are awesome. Why wouldn't we want awesome things? I'm all for it, as long as there are no severe consequences (i.e. losing humanity and such).

[DerelictTomcat]

Oh thank you! I have much to say on this subject but now have a web series to catch up on. I believe Hawken said somewhere in 2001 or 2002 that the only way to not face the real threat of creating a new race of computerized beings we need to integrate the computer with ourselves. More than likely he said this much better in less words.

later
DerTom

[SkyChuffer]

Zakatak, on 14 October 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

I'm sure anybody who has played Deus Ex or Crysis 2 knows what I am talking about. If you don't:

To what degree, if any degree, do you approve of changing the human condition through bioengineering and technology?

I'm 100% okay with it so long as it doesn't threaten a singularity, cause societal stagnation, or where it gets to the point where we are less human then we are machine. I'd love to live healthily and strongly for over 200 years, but I wouldn't want to have my brain uploaded so I could live forever as a computer, assuming such a thing is possible.

I consider myself a strong Transhumanist and Cyberpunk, believing we can overcome the human limitations by replacing ourselves with machine parts or to become more machine.

If you like Deus Ex, then I want to suggest the following;

* William Gibson - Neuromancer (Book)
* Collection of Short Stories "Mirror Shades"
* Ghost in the Shell - Preferably the 1995 movie.
* Shadowrun Snes / Sega (NOT the PC version by microsoft) and the upcoming Shadowrun Online & Shadowrun Returns.
* Johnny Mnemonic

If I weren't so tired this morning I could probably list a whole lot else like The 6th Day, Total Recall (old & new), Minority Report etc etc.

Song & Radio Version of Neuromancer;

Spoiler

[Exilyth]

Zakatak, on 14 October 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

To what degree, if any degree, do you approve of changing the human condition through bioengineering and technology?

I'm not sure. As long as society doesn't change for the better, there will always be [redacted] who would abuse such tech for war or for their personal gain at the expense of others.

Cloned soldiers whoose personality is completely suppressed by the milsoft in their headware, anyone?

If you're half human, half machine... are you really a human being or just a machine that thinks it is a human? Do androids dream of electric sheep?

Anyway, I think the next big change will happen in the field of biology/medicine.

Zeithri, on 15 October 2012 - 01:16 AM, said:

* William Gibson - Neuromancer (Book)

Great book. I'd suggest reading the sequels, "biochips" and "mona lisa overdrive", too.

[The Raptor]

If I could suddenly turn myself from meatsack to machine I sure as hell would... But as stated by Exilyth it will likely result in even more destructive wars than we have today and potentially a complete suppression of what makes a human a human.

So personally I would, but I wouldn't like to see this tech in the hands of our governments

[Xeno Phalcon]

I see Unitologists. *flees*

[Taffer]

Can I see through people's clothes?

Relevant:

[Xandralkus]

I am completely for transhumanism, assuming a few criteria are met:

1: The transhuman fully owns their upgrades and all data, memories, emotions, and knowledge.
2: Upgrades can be reconfigured, repurposed, and reinvented by the transhuman, without external help, independent of monetary constraints (minimum requirement: nanotechnology)
3: Zero reliance on cloud computing. All operations should be handled locally. Internet connection can be shut off if so desired.
4: Immunity to electromagnetic interference (specifically, EMP)

The real issue is, in order for all four of those to be true, we would need to be advanced beyond belief. This society would be so radically different from ours, it could barely be called a society by modern standards. In a world of immortal, self-invented, transhuman constructs, menial tasks (which comprise the VAST majority of present-day jobs) could be attended to by remote-control drones. A single operator could 'do' tens, hundreds, even thousands of jobs simultaneously. Jobs which, right now, are done by humans. That alone is a pretty massive societal hurdle to overcome.

If this happened, the effective size of the human population, on a single world, would not likely exceed a few thousand. I do not believe Earth could ever support a population of seven billion immortal, transhuman constructs.

While transhumanism does have its darker side, this is usually only the result of external intervention and an intrusion of (trans)human rights, usually for the socioeconomic gain of those in power. Let us not forget that transhumanism may also be the final and ultimate tool to subvert and destroy the illegitimate rule of the power elite.

[StonedDead]

I am all for trans-humanism as long as it does not replace the individual. Augmenting and enhancing is great as long as the person can survive without it functioning. If you are cyberized to the point of being unable to function should something drastic occur, it would prolly be a bad thing. Check out Ghost in the Shell. I want to be cyberized. Some people in that are fully cyberized. Their bodies are as self contained as ours are when they feel it needs to be. But you would be mostly machine at that point and it can have limitations on what you can do with it, not as many as the human body does now, but limitations none-the-less.

[DrnkJawa]

My opinion is simple: Leave it for those who need it, if you got a perfectly good pair of arms and legs then maybe a brain implant to play solitare while at work

[Zakatak]

I've never understood the idea of mind-uploading. Brains aren't computers, humans aren't machines, and research concludes it. If you put my personality in a robot, I'm not going to live forever, I'm going to die right there. Without getting into religion as best I can, I do believe humans have something you could call a soul, and that is lost in the process. You now have a robot with my personality that can live as long as he wants, but it isn't me, I'm a lifeless corpse sitting in a chair with electrodes stuck to my head.

And even if one could upload their brain into "something greater", what happens to humanity? A post-singularity society would be beyond our understanding, it would operate on blue and orange morality. Whose to say that they won't see us like insignificant beings, like an insect is to you? You can do incredibly cruel things to an ant and feel nothing for it, and a post-human society, for all we know, could see humanity much the same way.

My problem isn't necessarily transhumanism, but a large segment of transhumanists, which are composed of childish future wankers. How do you know your ideas will lead to a utopian future? Prophets who have walked the walk and talked the talk, have had grand views of a perfect humanity, I speak mainly of Jesus and Buddha. A loving, caring society free of evil and hardship. And over time, their words have been twisted by madmen, murderers, and liars. Do you think Jesus would have approved of the Crusades, of the Inquisition, of scum like the Westboro Baptist Church? No, he wouldn't. Transhumanism, for all of its good intentions, could lead to incredible amounts of evil.

Improve the human body to live as long and healthily as possible through minor cybernetics, gene therapy, and bioengineering. But never should we step into post human territory or reach a singularity until we know we can handle it. I imagine we could get a good 300 years out of a body, and that should be enough for anyone.

Edited by Zakatak, 15 October 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[SkyChuffer]

Zakatak, on 15 October 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

I've never understood the idea of mind-uploading. Brains aren't computers, humans aren't machines, and research concludes it. If you put my personality in a robot, I'm not going to live forever, I'm going to die right there. Without getting into religion as best I can, I do believe humans have something you could call a soul, and that is lost in the process. You now have a robot with my personality that can live as long as he wants, but it isn't me, I'm a lifeless corpse sitting in a chair with electrodes stuck to my head.

This is correct. Putting your personality in a machine only allows your personality to live on but not you.
But that isn't the thing here, the thing here is to keep your mind intact regardless of uploading or not.

On the concept of soul, I give you a question.
If you die, will you become a ghost in the machine?

PS. My belief on Soul is.. self-contradicting. I am spiritual, not religious and I can't really settle on my opinion about soul.

Zakatak, on 15 October 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

And even if one could upload their brain into "something greater", what happens to humanity? A post-singularity society would be beyond our understanding, it would operate on blue and orange morality. Whose to say that they won't see us like insignificant beings, like an insect is to you? You can do incredibly cruel things to an ant and feel nothing for it, and a post-human society, for all we know, could see humanity much the same way.

Do you view yourself superior to other people right now?
If you don't, then you won't after.

Zakatak, on 15 October 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

My problem isn't necessarily transhumanism, but a large segment of transhumanists, which are composed of childish future wankers. How do you know your ideas will lead to a utopian future? Prophets who have walked the walk and talked the talk, have had grand views of a perfect humanity, I speak mainly of Jesus and Buddha. A loving, caring society free of evil and hardship. And over time, their words have been twisted by madmen, murderers, and liars. Do you think Jesus would have approved of the Crusades, of the Inquisition, of scum like the Westboro Baptist Church? No, he wouldn't. Transhumanism, for all of its good intentions, could lead to incredible amounts of evil.

We're not proclaiming utopia.
People will always be evil no matter what.

Zakatak, on 15 October 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Improve the human body to live as long and healthily as possible through minor cybernetics, gene therapy, and bioengineering. But never should we step into post human territory or reach a singularity until we know we can handle it. I imagine we could get a good 300 years out of a body, and that should be enough for anyone.

I want to live forever.
Because I can.

It's a desire that no one should allow to stop because you're not hurting anyone by 'living'.
Not exactly at least.

[Grendel408]

There's an awesome universe written by Peter F Hamilton (Commonwealth Saga, 5 books total) that talks about "rejuvination" and "bionetics" and such... basically implanting the body with things that allow internet through your vision, phone, etc... all the way down to implanted weapons and shields and all kinds of crazy stuff... But if you look at it from a "Star Trek" standpoint... it's all very feasible given time and the right minds working to develop such a thing... I'd be down to clone my body, transfer my memory and live almost forever Who wouldn't right?

[Grendel408]

Zakatak, on 15 October 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

I've never understood the idea of mind-uploading. Brains aren't computers, humans aren't machines, and research concludes it...

Brains are computers... humans are machines... just not mechanical like most people think when they use the word machine or computer... we are a biological machine controlled by a biological computer... We are no different than the car you drive every day to work or school. We have an intake and exhaust, we produce waste, require nutrients (food and beverage) to stay hydrated and operating correctly... we have a complete carborator system (your heart)... we have motor control... what we really have is a completely wrong and opinionated comment about people...