69 replies to this topic

[bert bargo]

BOO. Im depressed with these results :/

I REALLY hope MWO doesnt become a leg/head-fest. I myself always go for the torso. F the boats and the leg/head-ers

[Ghost]

Targeting limbs should be an option -- as long as the accuracy on weapons isn't pinpoint. Otherwise it'll just be a massacre.

[dh crow]

Legs generally have at least as much armour as the CT on stock loadouts. If you don't put armour on them, that's your fault. Rear and head armour are generally very hard to hit, although if you spend enough time with your back turned to the enemy someone's going to find it soon enough.

Edited by dh crow, 02 November 2011 - 09:57 PM.

[CoffiNail]

taxman, on 02 November 2011 - 06:17 PM, said:

If you can Target it , and you have to put armour on it , then I say shoot it !

Unless you are a Clansman engaged in Zellbrigen with a Fellow Clansman , then The Clan code must be adhered to.

Sean Pryde, on 02 November 2011 - 07:57 PM, said:

Legging is more honorable in Clan society. Saves the pilot (waste not remember) as well as keeps the mech pretty much intact for salvage purposes.

As for what happens when legged? Fall flat on your face, but should be able to prop up if you have both arms (ala tabletop)

And headshots, keep em. just make em hard to pull off.

Problem? I see none. If you are a weight class heigher than me, I have even less of an issue with legging you. Do I do it? Not too often. But if you are just standing around pew pewing... guess who's easy to target leg I may just sheer off.

Headshots, **** brother if you can target and aim that well to break the cockpit, well good for you son.

Sum Ting Wong, on 02 November 2011 - 06:40 PM, said:

I'm taking it that both you and this 'dead eye' have no idea what a mech's made of. You forget that the mechs' limbs are moved by artificial muscles. You shoot any part of a mech, you hit those internal bits of 'meat'.

Kthx.

I take it you never played Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries? If you did you would know who Dead-Eye is.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Sum Ting Wong, on 02 November 2011 - 06:40 PM, said:

I'm taking it that both you and this 'dead eye' have no idea what a mech's made of. You forget that the mechs' limbs are moved by artificial muscles. You shoot any part of a mech, you hit those internal bits of 'meat'.

Kthx.

I feel like YOU need an explanation of whom Dead Eye is, In Mw2:Mercs, he is the guy who trains you on your first big contract. That guys is the leader of Hanson's Rough Riders. He is the man -- and full of liners like that throughout the entire campaign. He's also the reason I loved the Catapult. Good times...

[T S Hawk]

Unlike the board game where you have to have some extra modifiers for called shots in the MW series I would do what I can to hit the head or the legs.. especially the clanners they are nasty well you know

[Mercurial]

If legging/heading is the obvious choice and there's no tradeoff for it as opposed to torso/arm shots that's kind of a game design problem, not a player issue.

Whatever gets the job done. Some kind of reticle bloom while moving is all it would really take to make things kind of a trade off, but legging assault mechs as a lighter, faster, harder to target medium/light mech seems pretty fair to me. And if you can manage a headshot with reticle bloom/aim getting screwed up by return fire and enemy maneuvering, more power to you. Just be careful with the hitbox and designs on some head (Read: Fix the wonky mech designs with GIANT glass face plates that were easy to hit in earlier MW games).

[Starkiller]

Is it a part of the mech? Why then yes, it IS a viable target. If you want a duel with rules, set it up, other wise hide your head and leg if you don't want them shot!

[taxman]

Well now, this is interesting !!

Since I realised that MechWarrior was going to be relaunched I spent my time spending the megre pocket money that "she who must be obeyed" grudgingly allows me to purchase quite a few Battletech and Mechwarrior publications.
What troubles me is that in all of the battle senarios that players may decide to undertake I have yet to find any where in the rules of warfare manuals that focus on Head shots and leg shots as not being targets, on the contrary they go into great detail on the effects of those on the mech and the consequences for the Pilot within.

I currently have have 11 publications with more on the way.

The most relevant to the Clans is Publication MechWarrior Companion.(1671) Fasa
This deals in depth with the clans use of Zellbrigen and Honor duels.

BattleTech technical readout 3050
MechWarrior Companion 1671
The Clans 1725
BattleTech Compendium 1691
The Periphery 1692
Null Set 1672
Living Ledgends 1646
BattleTech technical readout 3025
BattleTech Mercenaries 1701
BattleTech Master Rules 1707
MechWarrior 1641

Again nowhere in any of these publications , is there a single word that refers to legging or headshot being dishonerable.

The Warriors Guide to the Clans (1725) by FASA Also deals with Honor and Zellbrigen, Again nowhere in this Publication does it mention That Legging and Headshots are considered DEZGRA.

So I conclude the the issue over headshots or legging does not arrise from within the BattleTech/Mechwarrior games, but from misconceptions and misinformation from within the Novels and Fanbase.

Please feal free to contradict me , but do so with quotes from official BattleTech/MechWarrior publications.

Dare I say it quaiff?

Edited by taxman, 03 November 2011 - 09:58 AM.

[Kargush]

Like the ambush, a perfectly legitimate tactic, and reviled when used against you.

I say go for it.

[Dihm]

Legging and headhunting? It's 2legit2quit

[gilliam]

I don't think there's anything wrong with legging. I don't think it should outright destroy your mech like MW3 or cause excess damage to go to CT (hastening your demise) like MW4. I also think that you shouldn't have the pinpoint accuracy needed to pull it off every single time if you don't have a targeting computer onboard. There should be enough weapon deviation or reticule bounce to make a center of mass shot more likely to succeed.

[wanderer]

The boardgame doesn't generally allow for "aimed shots" ala the Mechwarrior videogames, thus it's much more a thing of chance- although there are rules for it with high-tech (and heavy) targeting computers or immobilized targets.

IMHO, removing super-precise accuracy is the key. You want to spray the legs, be my guest. You want to sit there pinpoint-lasering one of them and sawing it off in one salvo, instantly? No. Cone-of-fire needs to be in precisely for these reasons, and target movement needs to widen that cone as well. No sim can really represent the movement a 'Mech is actually making well, since it's mostly a "move in a line" rather than the irregular motions a "real" 'Mech makes on the battlefield that would make such things much tougher than they are in, say the earlier Mechwarrior games.

[Norsebeast]

I'm a little on the fence in regards to this topic, but I think they should be alowed, given some conditions. If all it takes to eliminate any 100 ton Assault 'mech in the game is a few targeted shots to its weakly armored legs, the game is gonna get old pretty quick. On the flip side, there would be little/no point in piloting Light 'mechs, if they are expected to have to nibble away at an Assault 'mechs armored torso to get a kill... so I would propose a damage model somewhat like MechWarrior4, whereby blowing up one leg on any mech applies a momentary knockdown with severe movement penalties afterwards. Something like a 2/3rds speed loss, slower turning rate, inability to crouch/prone, etc. Elimination of both legs would then apply another temporary knockdown, followed by complete lower body immobility (ie. your mech is a glorified turret). Being stuck permanently face down in the mud however, should not be added to the game, since it takes the player completely out of any chance of winning the battle; a chance that, while slim, is still possible for an immobile 'mech. Think of the glory people!

As far as head shots are concerned, thats kinda iffy too. Who here really wants to be running into battle when some camper on a hill a klick away one-hit-kills you? Head destruction should also be used as a penalty system, rather than a sure-kill. You should lose all radar, heat-tracking, ammo-tracking, night-vision, chatting, basically everything on the HUD really, and your screen should be staticy, but still visible enough that a good pilot could still fathomably keep fighting.

Head shots shouldn't be super easy to make either. There's a reason why there's only a small chance of hitting the head in the board game. The weapons these 'mechs use aren't supposed to be as accurate as they will certainly seem to be in a third/first-person shooter situation. To compensate, maybe make head damage only possible from splash damage or stray salvo shots like a missle attack or autocannon/MG fire? Not the full damage of the weapon, mind you, just the damage of whatever projectiles actually hit the head's small bounding box. Of course, a Death From Above attack is all fair in my book, as well as a close combat punch to the face, so perhaps there should be a way to make head shots targetable in melee only? That's my recommendation.

[guber]

Kill 'em any way possible. Just remember there aren't any weapons down there so until your opponent's disabled he's still got all his guns

[wanderer]

Norsebeast, on 03 November 2011 - 11:09 AM, said:

I'm a little on the fence in regards to this topic, but I think they should be alowed, given some conditions. If all it takes to eliminate any 100 ton Assault 'mech in the game is a few targeted shots to its weakly armored legs, the game is gonna get old pretty quick. On the flip side, there would be little/no point in piloting Light 'mechs, if they are expected to have to nibble away at an Assault 'mechs armored torso to get a kill...

There's always the traditional method. Shoot them in the even more lightly armored back. If you can't get a light around to hit an assault in the back, you're piloting an Urbanmech with jump jet damage. If you're fighting an assault 'Mech from the FRONT in a light straight on? You deserve to become a grease spot. Not a hero. Maybe a martyr!

Quote

so I would propose a damage model somewhat like MechWarrior4, whereby blowing up one leg on any mech applies a momentary knockdown with severe movement penalties afterwards. Something like a 2/3rds speed loss, slower turning rate, inability to crouch/prone, etc. Elimination of both legs would then apply another temporary knockdown, followed by complete lower body immobility (ie. your mech is a glorified turret). Being stuck permanently face down in the mud however, should not be added to the game, since it takes the player completely out of any chance of winning the battle; a chance that, while slim, is still possible for an immobile 'mech. Think of the glory people!

The boardgame does it fine. Lose a leg, take a fall, have minimal (1MP) speed getting up, lose both legs, immobilized but can still prop on an arm and fire. Just use that and you're good by me.

Quote

As far as head shots are concerned, thats kinda iffy too. Who here really wants to be running into battle when some camper on a hill a klick away one-hit-kills you? Head destruction should also be used as a penalty system, rather than a sure-kill. You should lose all radar, heat-tracking, ammo-tracking, night-vision, chatting, basically everything on the HUD really, and your screen should be staticy, but still visible enough that a good pilot could still fathomably keep fighting.

That's sensor damage, not total head destruction. And again, cone of fire. At a klick away, even a small circle should mean that most of your shots are going to either potentially miss outright or splash torso armor instead. Pinpoint precision targeting is what you need to get rid of to make legging/headshotting fair, and that's all it takes.

[Gorthaur]

id love to see a new take on legging in this game. where you can leg mechs and capture them for resources as an option instead of killing the mech off completely. same with head shots, if you kill the pilot in the cockpit then the rest of the mech can be salvaged for resources.

edit: on a similar note, this game needs to make DFAs more effective/realistic. id love to see it as an awesome last resort tactic.

Edited by gorthaur, 03 November 2011 - 01:33 PM.

[Lily of Thrace]

Eh, actually getting a single-shot kill on an enemy mech via cockpit wasn't that easy on MW4, and taking out the legs still required you to expose yourself long enough for a strong enemy to get a few solid hits in.
Well, that's how it was in my experience, anyway.
I have no real problem with these tactics. The quicker a battle is over, the less damage you take.
That means less repair costs.
Which means more profit.
Plus, if you can knock out a mech by killing the pilot swiftly, more juicy salvage.

[UncleKulikov]

It should be possible to leg or head someone, but the game mechanics should make that difficult to pull off reliably, and take a lot of skill tactics and timing.

[Lori Carlyle]

Don't have an issue with it, cones of fire would be better, I can't see me playing for too long without them.