1258 replies to this topic

[Gremlich Johns]

That's the way the fiction was written: numbers overcome tech. The Clans were never intended to win against the Inner Sphere. If they were, Jihad and DA would never have been written.

That, plus the IS learned to use the Clan's tactics and idiom against them.

devious stravags.

[CCC Dober]

There is more to it, I think. The Wardens had their own ideas by the time the invasion hit the IS. It seemed they were content to link up again, whereas the Crusaders wanted to clean the whole table, disregarding everything else. Since both 'factions' were present in the invasion force and depended on each other, you can easily see that the Crusaders would run out of steam before long. But the ultimate travesty, which did nothing to strengthen the Crusaders position was what Clan Smoke Jaguar did on Edo. It was nothing short of genocide, easily on the scale of what brought Clan Wolverine to its knees. This went unpunished, but was neither forgotten nor forgiven. It seemed that the vision of the Crusaders was noble at the beginning, but the actual pursuit turned out to be not any better than what Amaris did. This single action split the Clans even further apart as sure as the first conflict in the Pentagon Worlds did for their ancestors. Standing together united after this one was obviously impossible. Clan Smoke Jaguar forgot itself, where it came from and as such doomed the invasion to inevitable failure.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Wrong on so many levels it is clear you did not do any serious reading, merely skimming.

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Since both 'factions' were present in the invasion force and depended on each other, you can easily see that the Crusaders would run out of steam before long.

How exactly? Of the four initial clans, THREE were Crusaders in body as well as head. All four cut through the IS like a hot knife through butter. The only problem was the treatment of the conquered worlds by the more extreme Clans which led to a one step forward, two steps backward logistical nightmare of having conquered a planet but now having to deal with administration problems, strikes, riots & rebellions. This was only a problem to the Clan in question because they were trying to outdo one another as far as a timetable goes. Overall they had steam to last decades. Get your facts straight buddy.

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But the ultimate travesty, which did nothing to strengthen the Crusaders position was what Clan Smoke Jaguar did on Edo. It was nothing short of genocide, easily on the scale of what brought Clan Wolverine to its knees. This went unpunished, but was neither forgotten nor forgiven. It seemed that the vision of the Crusaders was noble at the beginning, but the actual pursuit turned out to be not any better than what Amaris did. This single action split the Clans even further apart as sure as the first conflict in the Pentagon Worlds did for their ancestors.

No,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no,no. The Clans simply saw Edo as a waste, not as something repulsive. They simply thought the rebellion could have been managed better than that, but no Clansman shed a tear. It did not split anything. It only made them the worst of the Clans in the eyes of the IS, NOT the other Clans. The only thing that doomed the invasion was the other Clans decision to not listen to Ulric. Only Clan Wolf claimed a clear victory on Tukayyid. Even A.Focht realized this when he discovered the reason ComStar ran roughshot over the Clans when he spoke to Ulric afterwards. He admitted to him that if the Ulric's advice had been heeded & the other Clans had followed his example, Terra would have gone to the Clans. Please do not bother to refute the point because it is CANON. It is written in black & white & this came from the guy who spent a lot of time with the Clans & with Ulric in particular & who won the victory.

[CCC Dober]

The facts couldn't be more straight than I presented them. Denial won't get you anywhere. I hope you read up on the novels and got a glimpse how splintered Clan society really was. It would do you good to remember that not everybody shared the same vision championed by the Crusaders. Even their ranks were not as closed as it would appear. As I said, read some novels, get a feeling for what happend behind the curtain of steel and fire.

Just because this universe hovers around Mechs and warriors does not mean it is always as simple as that. Books, they are good for you. Try them. Thank you.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I have read the books which is why I know you are talking nonsense. The facts are in direct contradiction to the foolishness you claim are truth. Show me some quotes from said books to back up your claims.

Just because you skimmed some stuff does not mean you have an in-depth analysis of the situation. You clearly do NOT, based on that drivel you posted. Try this on people who have not read the source material. Thank you.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 05 March 2012 - 08:22 AM.

[Mastr]

I do not believe the clans viewed Edo so non-nonchalantly. The Jaguars did something similar to their own civilian caste members on Londerholm and several clans tried to move against them, it was just political maneuvering that saved them from being censured for their actions. Waste makes haste and in all honesty following Kerenskys pillars of clan society killing is wasteful. Salvage both in personnel and equipment is more valuable than a heap of bodies. To cite at least one example Clan Cloud Cobra is known to despise killing, even among members of their own clan during trials. Their Honorarium pays homage to those who have been killed friend and foe alike. Does that sound like a clan who would have seen Edo as simply mismanagement?

[Jaroth Corbett]

We had a debate about this before. The thread is somewhere in the Clan section & the answer to your question is yes. Quotes were provided.

[Cochise]

Ghost Bears!

[Thomas Covenant]

The Wolves have the "Great Death" as the Kurita underworld call it. Would I align myself to a faction or clan based on ease of access to a single mech, hmm? Absolutely.

[Greeneyes]

[GDL Germ]

None.

[CCC Dober]

Jaroth Winson, on 05 March 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

I have read the books which is why I know you are talking nonsense. The facts are in direct contradiction to the foolishness you claim are truth. Show me some quotes from said books to back up your claims.

Just because you skimmed some stuff does not mean you have an in-depth analysis of the situation. You clearly do NOT, based on that drivel you posted. Try this on people who have not read the source material. Thank you.

Seriously, you don't just read all the available novels and just forget what you learned. Or is that what you are trying to tell me? if that is indeed true in your case, then feel free to refresh your memory. Or maybe you could fall back to such devious inventions like google? Far be it from me to lead you on the path of enlightenment paved with actual facts rather than plain denial and superstition. Totally your call.

[Jaroth Corbett]

I have forgot nothing & again I challenge you to provide quotes from the source material to back up your claims. Keep your "I have swam the celestial BT seas & am on a higher plane than you grasshopper" to yourself or direct it to the noobs who have just arrived. I can back up what I said with the source material. You made your claims now back it up.Stop evading & provide text that shows what you are saying is truth as in actual fact, OR can lead to the conclusion you came to, by the thought pattern outlined by the source material. If you cannot back up what you say, since your memory obviously does not need refreshing, as mine does apparently, then do not attempt to stamp authenticity to YOUR wild claims. Totally your call.

[Broccan Mac Ronain]

gotta go with Nova Cats or the bears, the wolves flip flop way to much.

[Jaroth Corbett]

The Wolves were Wardens who became Crusaders. How is that flip-flopping too much. That is ONE change of stance. You mentioned the Bears.............might I remind you the Bears were Crusaders who became Wardens. Are they also considered to have flip-flopped too much?

[Der BruzZzler von Wiesndoof]

FACEman Peck, on 04 March 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

I'll go with the Clan that the Daishi came with.

Welcome to the Jags!

[Dan Baxter]

"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down to darkness."
-Nicholas Kerensky

[Jaroth Corbett]

Seyla!

[GD26]

Jaguars for sure.
The purest of all Clans!

[Scrawny Cowboy]

I have little to no knowledge about Clan lore but, I'd have to say I'm liking Clan Ghost Bear and Clan Wolf. Mainly because they seem more noble out of the bunch. I should read up on the novels and get some sort of idea of how Clans even tick.

(Off the poll, I like Clan Star Adder too.)

Edited by B3RZ3RK3R, 09 March 2012 - 03:01 AM.