95 replies to this topic

[Catharsis]

Lorcan Lladd, on 27 March 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Yeah, well, I'm probably going off-course on this one.
But, I'm guessing the 'master' purpose behind the Reapers - which the Prothean VI mentions but never elaborates on - is the preservation of the galaxy.

... (massive quote)

That is actually really good! I had totally forgotten about the whole "star destabilization" plot in ME2.
I do wonder how Eezo could be responsible for putting stars out of whack, seeing as how it has existed since the dawn of the universe. Or did I miss out on some codex entry saying it was man-made?

I liked the idea that ME3 touched on about the Reapers and synthetics representing the typical "good" of order, while humanity and organic life represented the typical "evil" of chaos. It did actually somewhat "justify" the Reaper's existence and driving point. They really did believe they were organic-kind's salvation. A higher form of life that has been ordered down into singular existence. Un-diversified.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Catharsis, on 27 March 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

That is actually really good! I had totally forgotten about the whole "star destabilization" plot in ME2.
I do wonder how Eezo could be responsible for putting stars out of whack, seeing as how it has existed since the dawn of the universe. Or did I miss out on some codex entry saying it was man-made?

I don't myself recall whether there was such an entry in the Codex, but I seem to remember that the dark energy fields generated by element zero are only active when the element is electrified, according to another entry.
Not sure whether it is natural or artificial, though it is probably the former.

Catharsis, on 27 March 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

I liked the idea that ME3 touched on about the Reapers and synthetics representing the typical "good" of order, while humanity and organic life represented the typical "evil" of chaos. It did actually somewhat "justify" the Reaper's existence and driving point. They really did believe they were organic-kind's salvation. A higher form of life that has been ordered down into singular existence. Un-diversified.

We did see more of the Reapers as it is adequate, but most of the time we were fighting them - again, as it is adequate - even if at those times we were on foot - sort of adequate, whatever - so we didn't really get to see any more of them besides their weapon systems...
...Which is apparently a single particle beam weapon.

I'm not completely satisfied with that; I wish we'd get to know more about them, like how they work and what they think, much in the very same way we got to learn about the Geth collective cyberspace.
Their thoughts and memories would be interesting to know; hell, they might have intended to have an indoctrinated Shepard from the start, to give us that kind of perspective.

[Hakija]

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague until I finished the game, and all I can say is it just left a bad taste in my mouth. I know others have said this, but I felt I was watching on of those movies where the character wakes up at the end, turns to the camera, and says "oh, what a weird dream". It left me feeling like I was wasting my time.

That was for the final bedtime story part though. If they had stopped it and shown some of the immediate aftermath of the war right after the reapers get taken over or whatever, I'd have been fine with the whole thing.

Anyone else notice a similarity between the Reapers and the Shivans in Freespace 2? Very deja vu there. They had similar motives, they even looked kind of similar. Compare a Sathanas Juggernaut with a destroyer reaper.

[Catharsis]

Hakiyah, on 27 March 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

Anyone else notice a similarity between the Reapers and the Shivans in Freespace 2? Very deja vu there. They had similar motives, they even looked kind of similar. Compare a Sathanas Juggernaut with a destroyer reaper.

That is because Freespace 2 is the best game ever made and all other games should rip off of it for standard practice

But yes, I do see the similarity. Honestly, I think "evil machines hellbent on cleansing (or harvesting) the galaxy of all life" is a pretty classic sci-fi plot line. It can be overused, but many of the best incarnations of that plot do so without getting stale. I saw the ending of Mass Effect 1 (the first game!) coming from a mile away, but I still loved it for how it was crafted

[Lorcan Lladd]

Must be the tentacles - legs, whatever - but the Reapers have always sort of reminded of the Old Gods of the Cthulhu mythos...
...What with indoctrination and their manipulation of organics, and all.
I never played Freespace, but looking at some videos here, on my end, I can see what you mean.

[Catharsis]

Lorcan Lladd, on 27 March 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

We did see more of the Reapers as it is adequate, but most of the time we were fighting them - again, as it is adequate - even if at those times we were on foot - sort of adequate, whatever - so we didn't really get to see any more of them besides their weapon systems...
...Which is apparently a single particle beam weapon.

I'm not completely satisfied with that; I wish we'd get to know more about them, like how they work and what they think, much in the very same way we got to learn about the Geth collective cyberspace.
Their thoughts and memories would be interesting to know; hell, they might have intended to have an indoctrinated Shepard from the start, to give us that kind of perspective.

I agree. Learning about the Reaper's purpose and design helped a bit, but I really think we could have gotten to know them a lot better. Their one hit kill beam weapon stopped being scary at the end of the first game, and the whole thing with each Reaper looking like the previously indoctrinated species really did not pan out that much. They were developed in some places, but left shallow in many more places that could have been panned out. That, after all, is the best thing about a video game vs. a TV show (in terms of simple universe building) you can give the option for players to delve into the lore, without shoving it down their throats.

And developing the Reaper's would not have hurt. I always think back to the Peacekeepers in Farscape. At the beginning of the show, they were just some evil xenophobic military force that had no morals and killed off everything that opposed them. But by the end of the show, they were a fully developed society with every shade of grey splashed through their ranks. You felt for them, had an opinion on them, and actually wanted to know how things turned out for them. You understood why Scorpius (a primary bad guy) wanted John (the good guy) so badly. You may not have loved him for it, but you understood.

[Hakija]

Lorcan Lladd, on 27 March 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

Must be the tentacles - legs, whatever - but the Reapers have always sort of reminded of the Old Gods of the Cthulhu mythos...
...What with indoctrination and their manipulation of organics, and all.
I never played Freespace, but looking at some videos here, on my end, I can see what you mean.

You need to be on amazon buying a copy right now. Or risk losing your gamer-card.

Edited by Hakiyah, 27 March 2012 - 11:57 AM.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Maybe GOG...
...I'm just cheap like that.
There goes lunch money.

Anyway!

About the endings; how do you think Bioware is going to handle the fan backlash?
They've promised to consider other options, but that's a little too generic.

[Bloody Moon]

Well the Mass Effect 3 ending may or may not sucked (in the light of this indoctrination video i tend to change my previous rather hateful oppinion towards it if the maker of the video nailed the truth), but one thing is sure and this is something i like:
We will never face this problem in MWO!

PS.: My initial anger was fed by the fact that from a great story like one of the Mass Effect series i expected a great ending one that is comparable to the Evil ending of NWN2 for example. Here is the link if anyone wants to check:
The reason behind this is the fact that in my memory Baldur's Gate 2 TOB and the original Kotor had great endings.

Edited by Bloody Moon, 27 March 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[Catamount]

Lorcan Lladd, on 27 March 2012 - 11:29 AM, said:

We did see more of the Reapers as it is adequate, but most of the time we were fighting them - again, as it is adequate - even if at those times we were on foot - sort of adequate, whatever - so we didn't really get to see any more of them besides their weapon systems...
...Which is apparently a single particle beam weapon.

I'm not completely satisfied with that; I wish we'd get to know more about them, like how they work and what they think, much in the very same way we got to learn about the Geth collective cyberspace.
Their thoughts and memories would be interesting to know; hell, they might have intended to have an indoctrinated Shepard from the start, to give us that kind of perspective.

We didn't learn a single damned thing about the Reapers besides small hints of their purpose later on, such as on Rannoch, and didn't learn anything clear until the last 5 minutes of the game, assuming there's anything real about what happens after boarding the citadel, and even then, not much. The one important insight we do gather is that the Reapers aren't malicious, but rather in a sense as much enslaved victims of the Catalyst as anyone (which makes it even worse that once the real villian of the game is revealed you can't A.) Call the thing on its **** B.) Convince the Reapers its full of ****). Basically, the Reapers are the bred protectors of organic life, but they're controlled (sentient and reasoning, but controlled) into believing that the only way to accomplish that directive is to cull organic civilizations in order to prevent a conflict between said civilization and synthetic life, a conflict the Reapers are, again, programmed into believing is inevitable and will necessarily ultimately destroy all organic life if it's not nipped in the bud.

That's why I love Mass Effect. Nothing (almost) is ever black and white, especially when it comes to good and bad. Everyone and everything sits in a complicated gray area. The only arguable cliche bad guy (as Jack O'Neill might say) is the Catalyst, which took it upon itself to make the universe into its play thing.

Edited by Catamount, 27 March 2012 - 06:31 PM.

[Catharsis]

Bloody Moon, on 27 March 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

but one thing is sure and this is something i like:
We will never face this problem in MWO!

Great tie-back to the forum!

[Catharsis]

FinTheDuck, on 28 March 2012 - 08:24 AM, said:

Why are you posting this on a 'mech forum...

This is in the Off Topic forum.

The only logical connection I can make is that both Battletech and Mass Effect are science fiction stories with a lot of depth to their background universes. As such, I would hypothesize that a fair number of BT fans are also ME fans, or at least familiar with the ME series and would be able to provide decent discussion. Forums are social environments made for people with similar interests to hold good discussions. Obviously this is a Mechwarrior forum, and I spend a large portion of my time here in the BT-related sections, but there are no rules to prevent a minor chat about recent news.

Same reason that people look for fellow fans of Firefly.

And, come on, it is not like we are talking about Ponies

(I probably just alienated a huge group of people out there on this forum haha)

[SquareSphere]

I'm just sad bioware just sold out like that. Really don't think fans of the ME series expected there to be another game which is why the fake out/buy our dlc ending feels so much like a betrayal. If we knew that the story was supposed to be wrapped up in "another game" the ending would have been a bit more easy to swallow.

On the thought the "devs are sick of whining because they're not getting constructive critism" um.... I don't think they really understand social media much if they really thought they could get that in the first place. Small dev shops can use it for that since it's a small audience which is easier to moderate. When you have hundreds-thousands of fans post almost at the same time, it's basically impossible to gather detailed meaningful information.

You have to believe that they knew the ending would have made some waves, but was probably written off as "oh well it's just a few in the test group that didn't like any of the endings." The problem is that the rest of the folks had probably drunk so much "koolaide" ie. bought into the idea that BW could do no wrong, that the rest of the feedback was just "what they wanted to hear".

Regardless, BW won't be getting any of my money. In fact i hope someone puts up a website or something to track how many sales BW will lose in OTHER franchises for the business decisions they made with Mass Effect. Example, i'm pledging right now not to buy Dragon Age 3 solely because of what they did with selling out of Mass Effect.

[Catharsis]

SquareSphere, on 28 March 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

I'm just sad bioware just sold out like that. Really don't think fans of the ME series expected there to be another game which is why the fake out/buy our dlc ending feels so much like a betrayal. If we knew that the story was supposed to be wrapped up in "another game" the ending would have been a bit more easy to swallow.

On the thought the "devs are sick of whining because they're not getting constructive critism" um.... I don't think they really understand social media much if they really thought they could get that in the first place. Small dev shops can use it for that since it's a small audience which is easier to moderate. When you have hundreds-thousands of fans post almost at the same time, it's basically impossible to gather detailed meaningful information.

You have to believe that they knew the ending would have made some waves, but was probably written off as "oh well it's just a few in the test group that didn't like any of the endings." The problem is that the rest of the folks had probably drunk so much "koolaide" ie. bought into the idea that BW could do no wrong, that the rest of the feedback was just "what they wanted to hear".

Regardless, BW won't be getting any of my money. In fact i hope someone puts up a website or something to track how many sales BW will lose in OTHER franchises for the business decisions they made with Mass Effect. Example, i'm pledging right now not to buy Dragon Age 3 solely because of what they did with selling out of Mass Effect.

Your opinion on the matter is legitimate, and I do have to agree with you in some spots. I know that I was expecting Shepard's story, and his engagement with the Reapers to be finished up in the 3rd game, sans DLC or a 4th. I expected ME to continue on, but either without Shepard or without the Reapers. So, in a way, the way ME3 ended did break my expectations of the series. And it did sting like a betrayal.

I am disappointed, and the ending definitely has spoiled the strength of the last two games a bit. Similar to how the ending of Lost made me feel like the previous seasons had been a waste.

I do not worship Bioware, however, so I really would not bother to rally arms against them for this misstep.
I do not know really. All of this sucks, that is all I can say.

Though it actually makes me more interested in getting into the video game industry. I have a few good ideas...
It would be interesting to see things from the developer's perspective.

I understand the use of boycotts. I just do not think you should write off Bioware for this mistake. Maybe they will learn from this and DA2 and they will make DA3 the best RPG ever. Maybe they will screw it up too. I can not say.

Sad, sad business this is.

[Lasershark]

I broke a personal EA ban because ME1 was so unbelievable. And while that ban is still in effect, I can't regret getting the series. The ban resumes, although I suspect this series will be extended far beyond the trilogy. Like Halo was.

Of course, I do feel that the ending of ME3 suffers from severe Superman Syndrome: an invincible creature shows up and solves all problems instantly. Who is he? Nobody knows. How and why did he appear? Nuh-uh. Will we ever know the truth about "The Shepard's" encounter with him, grandpa? Probably not.

However, I strongly disapprove of the move to change the ending. Never let the audience determine the direction of your intellectual property. Not a good idea, Bio. I'll assume EA's pushing the buttons. If they are truly repentant for an honest mistake and rally for a new version of the ending, and then charge money for it, I'll know for sure.

And yes, I kinda do worship Bio a little, and despise EA more than a little. It's a thing.

[Shiinore]

I don't think BioWare wants to let such a strong universe they've created end on such a sour note. Literally any of the 3 choices you've made have the same outcome.

Expect DLC.

[SquareSphere]

Oh we expect DLC, the ending splash screen told us as much :/

[Catamount]

Bioware has suggested they'll amend the ending, not just in a DLC, but a free DLC.

Whether it actually satisfactorily ends the game or not is something we'll have to see.

[Catharsis]

Catamount, on 30 March 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Bioware has suggested they'll amend the ending, not just in a DLC, but a free DLC.

Whether it actually satisfactorily ends the game or not is something we'll have to see.

I really wonder what they will do to amend the ending. Will they take a hint off this "indoctrination" theory? Will they pull their own magic out? Or will it be some contrived cutscene that requires little effort on their part?

I am hoping Bioware can do the right thing with this and somehow manage to put something out that appeases everyone. Although I know that mass appesement is next to impossible
I guess we will just have to wait and see.

[Catharsis]

Lasershark, on 28 March 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

However, I strongly disapprove of the move to change the ending. Never let the audience determine the direction of your intellectual property. Not a good idea, Bio. I'll assume EA's pushing the buttons. If they are truly repentant for an honest mistake and rally for a new version of the ending, and then charge money for it, I'll know for sure.

Mixed feelings there. I agree that a developer should not let the audience determine the direction of a story. But at the same time, look at how much life the expanded universe has given Star Wars. Maybe that is not a good example though.
I do think that the ending of Mass Effect should be done better justice. The series deserves that. But I also feel bad for Bioware. I wonder what they were thinking? It would suck if they honestly wrote that ending, thinking it was the best, only to have the public ***** all over it.

I think that if they do change the ending, Bioware should get some of the more organized heads of the public video gaming community, ask them to put together a list of the problems they had with the ending, a list of things they feel they should see, and them Bioware should be allowed to make an ending as they see fit with those lists in mind. I think that is a lot better than the public just demanding "closure" and a "good ending" and what not.

I really do not know. Part of me does not care, part of me wants a better ending, and part of me is happy with what we got combined with my own imagination and interesting theories like this "indoctrination".