21 replies to this topic

[BLOODSHOTomega]

ok, i was reading about warfare roles:

http://mwomercs.com/...3-role-warfare/

and i was thinking that if that was applied at the lance level...[4 mechs]

1 of each role for example...

say a light mech scout role [raven, 35 tons]
a heavy mech command role [black knight, 75 tons]
an assault mech defense role [sunder, 90 tons]
and a heavy mech assault role [cauldron borne, 65 tons]

the average tonnage is 65 tons...

then lets say i pit that against four 65 tons heavy mech assault roles [cauldron borne 65 tons]

that adds up to about the same tonnage.

i would like to know, from someone that understands these things, not a forum junky, WHY the 4 divided roles is gona beat the 4 generic roles???

the goal is simply last man standing.

because in this case my money is on the 4 cauldron bornes. IN an urban warfare environment.
i dont see how this division of 4 roles is gona negate the skill and experience of 4 assault[roles] working togethor in an urban environment....

so what i want then is this...

1, explain to me the ratios??

for example is it expected to be 1C:1D:1S:1A [one of each role ratio?]

or would it be 2S:1C:2D:5A ratio? or some such? [s=scout, c=command, d=defense, a=assault]

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also please show me a play diagram for movements along these lines, because im not grasping this concept. i understand it on paper, but i dont see how it translates to the field...

http://donaldsweblog...08/x-o-etc.html
http://en.wikipedia...._Wing_Power.png
http://en.wikipedia....ing-T_Power.png
http://en.wikipedia....can_football%29

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i hope i got my point across.
1, i want to know the ratios of role/jobs that are expected.
and 2, i want a play diagram[or series of diagrams] demonstrating HOW THIS WORKS better then just a pure assault role scenario?

i like the idea you guys [devs] are after, but i dont comprehend the actual battlefield implementation...
thanks,
-BLOODSHOT/Omega
[in mw4 i was in the assault role, in mechs that were 65-100 tonnes]

[Sarriss]

That's probably a better question left to the devs (in terms of what ratio matchmaker uses) however in reality, a well coordinated multi-role lance will take out 4 assaults of the same skill level every time.

We are not talking about 4 assaults vs 1 of each role in open turf at line of sight range out of the gate. We are talking about being probably a few kilometres away, which is going to mean that the scout is going to be able to figure out where those 4 assaults are, relay that information back and allow the commander to go ahead and set up flanks, ambushes or whatever else to out-manoeuvre those 4 assaults and engage on their terms. If you are 4 assaults waiting on line of sight, and with no commander or scout able to get a clear picture of everything that is going on in the battle, then it would take overwhelming feats of brute power to beat those 4 'mechs with proper coordination. No one is saying it can't be done, but role warfare is designed to make every mech feasible, to emphasize that good strategies and teamwork earn wins far more often then brute strength and fire power.

Besides, why play a game where only the 100 ton mechs win matches? That would get boring really quickly.

Anyway, that's my understanding, you may disagree but don't be so quick to dismiss the roles until you can actually play it and see why so many Mechwarrior fans are excited.

[Outlaw2]

So far the only official word I've read on how to balance matches is that each side is made to take 3 of each weight class. However the dev that said this made it sound like it was something they were only considering atm. We really have no real info on how weight or role will factor(if at all) in balancing each sides mech composition.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 19 March 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[Karel Spaten]

If I wanted to give a simple (almost facile) answer to the OP, I would point out that the Scout can spot for the Commander's air/artillery strikes and so give the four heavies a good pounding without ever having to engage.

[Red1769]

I think Sarris hit the ball pretty well. Strategy and teamwork typically wins over brute force. That's why I won't always pilot my Atlas. But as Outlaw said, we still don't know a whole lot about the matchmaking system yet to really know how this will all play out.

And as Karel Spaten said, commanders do have the artillery and air strike call ins and scouts make great spotters for those. Use those to weaken them royally, and then sweep in for a four quick kills, since Assaults are slow, it would be hard for them to get out of the targeted area in time.

[Garth Erlam]

Nothing official here, but I think about it like this:
3 Lights, mediums, heavies, assaults.

Recon Lance: 3 Light
Skirmish Lance: 3 Medium
Support Lance: 2 Heavy, 1 Assault
Breakthrough Lance: 1 Heavy, 2 Assault

Recons find the enemy, Mediums pin them down (with the Recon), Support bring the rain, Breakthrough hit 'em when they're staggering.

[Damocles]

Garth Erlam, on 19 March 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Nothing official here, but I think about it like this:
3 Lights, mediums, heavies, assaults.

Recon Lance: 3 Light
Skirmish Lance: 3 Medium
Support Lance: 2 Heavy, 1 Assault
Breakthrough Lance: 1 Heavy, 2 Assault

Recons find the enemy, Mediums pin them down (with the Recon), Support bring the rain, Breakthrough hit 'em when they're staggering.

And this is how we play team games.

[Garth Erlam]

I think this will be easier to organize than most people realise. If you're in a Catapult, chances are you'll be holding back, waiting for someone to give you some targets. If you're in a Hunchback, you're going to be able to cordon off avenues of approach - nobody likes an AC/20 in the face. Jenners (or Jenners and Commandos working together) pack-hunting are incredibly effective.

Now you'll notice I made 'lances' of three - that was to demonstrate that there's flexibility in roles - sometimes you'll want a Skirmish lance, sometimes you'll want a Support Lance, and sometimes the Skirmish lance becomes the breakthrough. Hell your Recon could be a Light and three Mediums, and it could still work. The idea is flexibility and role utilization.

[Caballo]

Don't mean to rain in your parade, but that Cauldron-Born lance in an urban environment is not the best pick. It's a mech designed for long range combat. As the only short range weapon it has is the SRM2, the mixed lance would micemeat them.


EDIT: DUE TO THE LOWER POST, I'LL ADD EVERY MECH RIDES IT'S PRIMARY CONFIGURATION

The best chance is to use the short range firepower of the Sunder as axe, but as it's slow, it's mandatory to trick the oppossing lance to give it time to get where it works.

this is better explained with maps, but i'll try:

Send the raven to look for them, and act as bait to make the opposing lance follow him. If they stop following, call an artillery strike while keeping on sight.

Meanwhile, the Cauldron-born and the Sunder should had get together a discrete position flanking the Black Knight at a reasonable distance, and went passive.

The raven guide the oppossing lance to the position the BK is holding, and then dissappears (probably going the opposite side the Cauldron-born and the Sunder took). Using the buildings as cover, the BK acts as bait now, not moving much but retreating, and with radar active. Meanwhile the Cauldron-born and the Sunder begin flanking the opposing mechs, radar off, trying to get their back. Once they did, and if it haven't happened before, the Raven should call the artillery strike here.

Hell breaks loose. The Sunder and the Cauldron-born should have the rear sight of the opposing lance, so fire at will, The BK Gets active part in the fight once the opposing lance turns back to see what the hell has hitted them, and the raven should join as it can.

That's what i would do.

Edited by Caballo, 19 March 2012 - 10:39 AM.

[Bloody Moon]

@ OP As long as the game is not team deathmatch but there is atleast one base for each side to capture then the varied team should almost always win over the homogenic one if we assume the information warfare works properly and the scout plays as he should.

In an all-out bunched attack the 65ts can win but then in the meantime the scout can capture the base/flag whatever while they are fighting the heavier ones so they should always leave one behind to defend ie it boils down 30t advantage to the varied team if the homogenic one attacks. The only possible option i see in your scenario for the 65ts would be to defend as close to the base as possible and forcing their opponents to fight on their terms so they can support eachother. Due to the fact that the other team has a 35t scout it is quite possible that they could find a weakspot in the defense if they spread out.

Or this would be the case if your choice of mechs would've been from the same era as it is quite unfortunate to match a stock Raven and a Black Knight against stock Ebon Jaguars and if both sides would be equipped for the same battlefield as Caballo pointed out.

[Volume]

Clan Tech...

No, but seriously, with coordination and 'Mechs that fill different roles rather than different weight classes, the coordinated lance would win due to information warfare, specialization, and tactics.

Please note: Weight class is not a role, as a Jenner, Raven, Panther, and Commando all have different roles on the battlefield, in the same weight class, just like a Catapult/Longbow isn't the same as an Orion.

[Midgie]

Garth Erlam, on 19 March 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

I think this will be easier to organize than most people realise. If you're in a Catapult, chances are you'll be holding back, waiting for someone to give you some targets. If you're in a Hunchback, you're going to be able to cordon off avenues of approach - nobody likes an AC/20 in the face. Jenners (or Jenners and Commandos working together) pack-hunting are incredibly effective.

Now you'll notice I made 'lances' of three - that was to demonstrate that there's flexibility in roles - sometimes you'll want a Skirmish lance, sometimes you'll want a Support Lance, and sometimes the Skirmish lance becomes the breakthrough. Hell your Recon could be a Light and three Mediums, and it could still work. The idea is flexibility and role utilization.

This sounds a whole lot like a post I did on whether medium mechs have a place in MWO. I had been thinking about this kind of thing just the day before and made a quick pic to summarize:

It includes lances of three similar roles with a commander as the fourth. In addition, it includes what I call "standoff" mechs which are meant to fill in the weaknesses in a lance as well as be mobile enough to move forward or backward to other lances to lend assistance.

None of this is to be taken an set in stone. I firmly realize that other mechs of differing masses may be able to fill the different roles. I'm also assuming that lighter mechs will tend to have faster turning and torso twisting.
That being said, the idea of role warfare to me seems to suggest that a well balanced team (i.e. one with a mix of all three roles) will tend to work better than just throwing in twelve of the biggest mechs available at your enemy.

[BLOODSHOTomega]

assault ROLE and assault MECH are two different things.

who cares about default loadouts?

i dont understand how a light can fill any role except scouting.

and whats with this artillery business?
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what i wanted was DIAGRAMS AND RATIOS. if yer response involved neither, then that was just forum junky stuff.

-a picture is worth a thousand words

[Carl Wrede]

Garth Erlam, on 19 March 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

Nothing official here, but I think about it like this:
3 Lights, mediums, heavies, assaults.

Recon Lance: 3 Light
Skirmish Lance: 3 Medium
Support Lance: 2 Heavy, 1 Assault
Breakthrough Lance: 1 Heavy, 2 Assault

Recons find the enemy, Mediums pin them down (with the Recon), Support bring the rain, Breakthrough hit 'em when they're staggering.

Um.. you do know that a lance is supposed to consist of four mechs?

Edit: I read your later post and apparently you did know that a lance was supposed to have 4 mechs

Edited by Carl Wrede, 24 March 2012 - 06:47 AM.

[John Wolf]

BloodshotOmega,

I have very little artistic talents, so I can't draw this out for you as you've requested. What I can do is explain it like this.

Scouts; Yes, they are light, fast, have all kinds of goodies to mess with hostile mechs. And yes, they have guns.

Which means they can also do some serious damage to other mechs. Should a scout go toe to toe with a heavy or assault? no.. thats not their forte. But if that assault is engaged with another assault.. the scout gets behind and starts chewing up armor and causing all kinds of problems. You can even do a little shoot and scoot battle, keeping the heavy from bringing his weapons down on you and slowly bleeding him till your backup arrives.

[Sprouticus]

BLOODSHOTomega, on 24 March 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

assault ROLE and assault MECH are two different things.

who cares about default loadouts?

i dont understand how a light can fill any role except scouting.

and whats with this artillery business?
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what i wanted was DIAGRAMS AND RATIOS. if yer response involved neither, then that was just forum junky stuff.

-a picture is worth a thousand words

I also am not going to post pictures. But I will answer one of your questions very simply.

'I dont understand how a light mech fill any role except scouting'. This is easy.

• A light could be a command mech simply by having the right modules. Sure you risk losing a commander, but I could see some units fighting this way, where the command mech is fast and elusive, and can move all over the place to collect and relay data.
  
• A light could be an attack mech by mounting slightly less armor, ECM/modules to assist in preventing it from being detected, mounting long range weapons, getiting location and targeting data from a scout, and doing popup attacks to harass the enemy force. Do that for a while to distract the enemy and give your forces time to setup a welcoming party.
  
• A light could act as defense by giving it speed, armor, BAP/modules to assist in finding enemy scouts, and mid ranged weapons (LL, AC5, PPC) and you can effecitvely prevent the enemy from scouting you out.

[Sassori]

A light mech that managed to mount a couple large lasers could be a hell of a harasser. Fast, pop up zap you good, get out and under cover. The mix of speed, firepower, and sustainability would make that a hard mech to fight and a couple large lasers will swiss cheese rear armor right quick.

[Sprouticus]

here is a link to a longer discussion on roles (and scouting) from another thread. I dont feel like rewriting it:

http://mwomercs.com/...post__p__166686

[UltraMek]

BLOODSHOTomega, on 24 March 2012 - 05:51 AM, said:

assault ROLE and assault MECH are two different things.

who cares about default loadouts?

i dont understand how a light can fill any role except scouting.

and whats with this artillery business?
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what i wanted was DIAGRAMS AND RATIOS. if yer response involved neither, then that was just forum junky stuff.

I've seen lights take down heavies many times in mechwarrior 4, which is much less balanced. An uller with an ER PPC and an LRM10 can do a surprising amount of damaging by staying hidden, picking his shots and fading away.

[SquareSphere]

all boils down to Pub != Org matches.

in the previous iteration of MW mulitplayer

Pub = unlimited tonnage, no build restrictions, no battle objectives = gausszilla + other boats

Org = tonnage limits, build restriction depending on league rules, MWO has hinted at objective style play = versatility and correct roles will be a much bigger factor