44 replies to this topic

[Aegis Kleais]

I hope that all deathmatches have the 2 separate win conditions of killing all enemy forces or capturing their base. Since everyone has 1 life, protection of your base is as important as killing the enemy, so it can be wise to have base defenders at your base.

Also, if your base provides repair/reload capabilities, it means players have the option of pulling themselves off the front lines to get fixed up or more ammo at a c-bill cost, of course) in order to stay in the fight longer.

I REALLY hope that there's no forced time limit to this end, with everyone having only 1 life, you have to make the choice between leaving the base (or just how far away from it you'll get) vs. going on engagement ops.

I also hope base capture is a method by which the more enemies in a base, the faster it gets captured, but as long as 1 teammate is alive in the base, the capture rate stops, and only begins receding once all enemies are outside the base confines.

Personally, I don't want bases to have automated defenses, but i would be fine if each map had 4 repair bays (outside the hangar) and each could be destroyed (good to do before taking on base defenders in force since they cannot repair/refit)

Overall, I think these are great dynamics. What things do you hope are (or are NOT) in the default Deathmatch mode?

[palebear]

I concur. I hope base capture is as important as kills will be.

Possession of a point and retreating are all over the novels and I hope they play a key role in this game.

I'm still of a mixed mind about repair facilities, though - it seems so un-battletech to have machines being repaired during a battle. Field repairs i.e. slapping on new armour plates seem ok but repairing an arm, engine or internal component seems 'arcadey' - at least in my mind.

[Aegis Kleais]

palebear, on 25 March 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

I concur. I hope base capture is as important as kills will be.

Possession of a point and retreating are all over the novels and I hope they play a key role in this game.

I'm still of a mixed mind about repair facilities, though - it seems so un-battletech to have machines being repaired during a battle. Field repairs i.e. slapping on new armour plates seem ok but repairing an arm, engine or internal component seems 'arcadey' - at least in my mind.

It gives lights a chance to "ninja cap" a base if the entire team leaves it defenseless. This means having a defense ready for "base rushes" is a viable tactic. Of course, the capture rates need to be properly balanced so that a capture can't happen so fast so often with only a handful of capturing units, that nearby units could not get back to the base and defend it before it got captured. But still, love that it's another tactical option

[palebear]

They could get a lot of interesting gameplay simply by varying the base layout in the 12 v 12's. If you had ramps that lights could get up, but that assaults could not, you'd have interesting defensive as well as offensive options depending on the base.

If it's simply a 12 v 12 slugfest every time, it's going to get old quick.

[Outlaw2]

This is pretty much what a lot were discussing in your "suggest a game mode" thread. However, our side discussion was less about making a new game mode, and more about improving the standard NR teamdeath match.

One of the main problems we identified in NR matches is camping. Its less of a problem in random pub matches, but it still does happen. In competitive matches is happens quite frequently. In league matches, a honor system did keep it from becoming a huge problem. Ridicule, shame and scolding from league admins were all effective tools against camping (even so it still did happen). However, I don't see that playing much of a role in a game thats not govern by a tight-knit community. You'll need actual in-game mechanics to ward off camping.

Another similar problem was when the sole remaining mech on a team (usually a light mech) kept running away with no hope of winning ... but still wasted everyone's time. This happens less often since its harder to pull, but rage inducing when you encounter it (especially when all your fast mechs were destroyed in the encounter, and there is no chance of ever catching it).

For these two reasons alone, you need a time limit. There are teams and players that are perfectly content wasting time over losing the match. Not to mention players who would do it simply to troll.

I have also played a ton of NR matches that had some sort of repair bay. IMHO, they detracted from the game. Battles were all too focused around these repair bays, and teams would often camp them. Teams would hesitate moving away from them in fear they could get caught too far away from one without enough time to go back to repair. What you ended up seeing was teams treading lightly away from the repair bay. As soon as any fire was exchanged, they'd all haulasss to their repair bay. It stagnated matches ... to put it simply.

Something else that was a bit of consensus was if there is any kind of base capturing mechanic that out-right wins the game, it needs to act as secondary objective. It needs to be an objective that's very hard to pull off and that actually has as its main goal of giving a team an alternative win condition against camping opponents. If you make the base the main focus, players will just camp it or rush it to get a cheese win. This makes moving away from your base a huge disadvantage. You need some reason to go out into the field. Possibly a neutral (or host of neutral) capture point(s) in the middle of the map.

Keeping some of your forces to "guard" the base, while the others go out is asking to lose the match. You should only ever split up your team when A) its a small scout, B ) you know exactly where your opponents are, C) you are flanking their known position, or D) you want to lose.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 25 March 2012 - 02:03 PM.

[Aegis Kleais]

=Outlaw=, on 25 March 2012 - 01:39 PM, said:

This is pretty much what a lot were discussing in your "suggest a game mode" thread. However, our side discussion was less about making a new game mode, and more about improving the standard NR teamdeath match.

One of the main problems we identified in NR matches is camping. Its less of a problem in random pub matches, but it still does happen. In competitive matches is happens quite frequently. In league matches, a honor system did keep it from becoming a huge problem. Ridicule, shame and scolding from league admins were all effective tools against camping (even so it still did happen). However, I don't see that playing much of a role in a game thats not govern by a tight-knit community. You'll need actual in-game mechanics to ward off camping.

Another similar problem was when the sole remaining mech on a team (usually a light mech) kept running away with no hope of winning ... but still wasted everyone's time. This happens less often since its harder to pull, but rage inducing when you encounter it (especially when all your fast mechs were destroyed in the encounter, and there is no chance of ever catching it).

For these two reasons alone, you need a time limit. There are teams and players that are perfectly content wasting time over losing the match. Not to mention players who would do it simply to troll.

I have also played a ton of NR matches that had some sort of repair bay. IMHO, they detracted from the game. Battles were all too focused around these repair bays, and teams would often camp them. Teams would hesitate moving away from them in fear they could get caught too far away from one without enough time to go back to repair. What you ended up seeing was teams treading lightly away from the repair bay. As soon as any fire was exchanged, they'd all haulasss to their repair bay. It stagnated matches ... to put it simply.

Something else that was a bit of consensus was if there is any kind of base capturing mechanic that out-right wins the game, it needs to act as secondary objected. It needs to be an objective thats very hard to pull off and that actually has as its main goal giving a team an alternative win condition against camping opponents. If you make the base the main focus, players will just camp it or rush it to get a cheese win. This makes moving away from your base a huge disadvantage. You need some reason to go out into the field. Possibly a neutral (or host of neutral) capture point(s) in the middle of the map.

Keeping some of your forces to "guard" the base, while the others go out is asking to lose the match. You should only ever split up your team when A) its a small scout, B ) you know exactly where your opponents are, C) you are flanking their known position, or D) you want to lose.

Excellent points all around Outlaw. The fun part of this is devising a way to address the concerns:

1. Team Camping
2. Avoiding Confrontations / Needlessly Drawing out the Game
3. Repair Bays entice players to Camp
4. Change Base Capture Mechanics to adversely impact the enemy rather than be a win condition
5. Forcing offense/defense roles (for sake of game loss) breaks lance unity.

OK, let's see....

If we add a time limit back in, it would (a) have to be under the condition that even for an average battle, it's not so short that it forces people into engagement rather than giving them the tactical chance to perform maneuvers in large maps rather than forced attrition. It will not only demote the need to camp one's base, but also force players who are avoiding confrontation to do something before time expires and the round is decided on team scores.

I'm not a fan if removing repair bays. We can lower how many there are per team (namely, just 1) but the ability to tactically withdrawl from the battlefield in order to refit is, IMO, a sound option that costs you time, what you bring to your team, for the sake of repairing and getting more ammo (if you can afford so) Of course, lost limbs would not be replaced, just armor and ammo.

What we can do is make it so that the repair base is located a decent ways aside from their home base and hangar. This means that in the event that a team wants to heal up, they have to choose to leave the base defenses to do so, and since there is only 1 base, the more damaged a Mech is, the longer it forces others to wait for its repairs.

As for addressing point 5. We would need to think of a penalty that makes base defense a worthwhile tactical objective, but not so overpowering as to re-promoted camping.

[Outlaw2]

Im not going to lie. I hated repair bay maps, so did most people in the league. However there was a very vocal minority that did like them. Since these maps were probably 1 out every 20 maps in the rotation, they were tolerated. But my team would always groan when we saw a repair bay map in the rotation for the night.

If there are repair bays in MWO, they need to be regulated to a minority of the maps, and maybe with an option for me to avoid them like the plague. Frankly I can't think of a way to fix them....Im not sure there is. You either like the gameplay they promote or you don't. BTW, similar to how flush negates the disadvantages heat brings, repair bays negates the disadvantages of ammo. Especially negates the disadvantages of long range ammo based weapons like light gauss and ATM. You could spam harass with these weapons at the fringes of engagement ranges... with less worries of ever running out of ammo.

As for the other points. I have something in mind, I'll write up later on.

Edited by =Outlaw=, 25 March 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Hades Serpent]

I can think of a way to fix repair bays. It's right there in MW:O's game mechanincs. C-Bills.

Repair bays should cost C-Bills, and a hellovalot of time. If repairing takes lots of time, players who run back for repair whenever they get a scratch will be ridiculed and pressured into playing more sensibly, which is a good thing. Not that I like anything any encourages people to ridicule each other, but when you're just being plain stupid...it's hard not to call a spade a spade.

The devs have said that they are aiming for anound the 20-minute mark right now for matchs, so if repairing even a moderately damaged mech took a full minute or longer, that'd be acceptable dsincentive. People wouldn't want to go into it unless they really needed to (like a scout who got pouded early in the match). If it takes a long time, even having four bays wouldn't be too much of an issue, because having a full lance out of the field for a minute or more might loose you the game.

Secondly, huge premiums on repairing, but especially reloading in the field. It already costs money to get ammo, but if the cost for getting more in-game were 200% or 300% more than outside a match, even the most selfish of players would think twice when it comes to camping-out in the base so they're safe.

Put the two together, and repair bays might be what they ought to be (at least in my opinion): A mechanic that saves the butt of the poor scout who got caught out early in the game and got hammered but managed to escape, or some pour guy who took a serious beating from focus-fire before the whole lance withdrew. Heck, it might even be a curious disadvantage to focus-fire. O.o Could make for more interesting gameplay.

[VarietyOfCells]

Somehow I doubt they will include repair bays, but part of me wouldn't mind seeing them in the game. Without them, what happens in the previous posters example of the scout who gets pounded early? He can't risk going anywhere near battle for the rest of the match. Does he hide in a corner?

Two balances I could see working would be these; repair bays that are open to fire and make you even more vulnerable while repairing. Makes the prospect more risky. And also, repair bays that can only fix you up to 50% or so. This allows that scout from the example to be at least somewhat useful and give him the courage to brave another confrontation where he'll die like a man instead of hiding at a base.

[FinnMcKool]

Well if they have them ,I like the idea of making it Cost and Cost a lot, but if I was damaged with no mech bay I wouldnt hide , I want the team to win , even if I lose my Mech , its team first!

[palebear]

Another option on the mech repair bay could be the need to buy ammo (supplies) for the mech repair bay that then both cap the amount you can heal with it during a match and provide a disincentive to abuse them. For example, you might be able to purchase up to 500 units of repair for a mech bay prior to the match and once those 500 points have been used up, that's all the repairing you're doing. Also, you could stipulate that any remaining units of repair are (or are not) refunded at the completion of the battle. That could make it interesting.

[pcunite]

If we focus on real world mechanics, a couple of interesting approaches can be applied:

- Reloading weapons and repair should take a very long and annoying amount of time.
- Make incentives to avoid camping; why are we fighting anyway and what is the value for attacking? Offer reasons, don't just make arbitrary rules to force things. Maybe more money and honor is earned for doing something. Maybe a volcano is about to explode. Give real reasons, not "this is what online games require" to avoid grievers.
- 20 minutes across the board is too short and rushes things. If not careful this is just another shoot 'em up game.

If I'm out in a billion dollar mech and don't know if I'll make it home for the evening, I'm going to take my time to win ... This is a sim, not a button mashing game.

Edited by pcunite, 25 March 2012 - 07:34 PM.

[VarietyOfCells]

FinnMcKool, on 25 March 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Well if they have them ,I like the idea of making it Cost and Cost a lot, but if I was damaged with no mech bay I wouldnt hide , I want the team to win , even if I lose my Mech , its team first!

Yes, but how does charging in and dying help your team? Unless you charge in and go nuclear on purpose next to an atlas (something I hope isn't actually a viable strategy) you're just going to die, which brings your team closer to losing. You can try and be sneaky and send targeting information to your lance while hiding, but if you have visual contact that means they can see you too, which is too risky a place to put yourself when one more shot means you're bits and pieces strewn about the ground. And at this point your engine probably doesn't work so well, meaning you're not able to dodge that one shot, let alone run away from even a heavy once they have spotted you.

Being able to limp to a repair bay and repair up to a functional state would give you hope to still be useful, and not just that last mech hiding in a corner preventing the match from ending.

[StaIker]

Everything about repairs bays strikes me as a terrible idea. I second Outlaws comments regarding the ways they disrupt and distort play. A pilots objective should be to avoid damage and kill the enemy, not to try and control repair bays.

[Belisarius1]

Please, no repair bays.

To the guys saying that repair bays can be balanced by making them cost money, there's another fundamental point that Outlaw left out:

The gametype has to be internally consistent, complete and balanced, without reference to the "metagame".

When you add features that are broken within the game (like infinite repairs a la MW4), but balance them with costs external to the game, like C-bills, you're balancing the wrong thing.

There will always be players with more money, perhaps too much money. If you balance a mechanic by money, you allow those players to abuse it as much as they like, because they can afford it and others can't. So you end up with an even more messed up situation than before, where you have a broken mechanic that also happens to be a P2W-er's dream.

Edited by Belisarius†, 25 March 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[FinnMcKool]

VarietyOfCells, on 25 March 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Yes, but how does charging in and dying help your team? Unless you charge in and go nuclear on purpose next to an atlas (something I hope isn't actually a viable strategy) you're just going to die, which brings your team closer to losing. You can try and be sneaky and send targeting information to your lance while hiding, but if you have visual contact that means they can see you too, which is too risky a place to put yourself when one more shot means you're bits and pieces strewn about the ground. And at this point your engine probably doesn't work so well, meaning you're not able to dodge that one shot, let alone run away from even a heavy once they have spotted you.

Being able to limp to a repair bay and repair up to a functional state would give you hope to still be useful, and not just that last mech hiding in a corner preventing the match from ending.

Im just sayin; Im gonna keep trying, I dont give up till Im dead..

Its the Irish in me.

[Kanatta Jing]

So lets split this up. 12 V 12 is 3 lances a piece.

3 Commanders and 3 scouts.

One Lance set up with mediums and lights goes out on a Scout hunt looking for the easy kills and to get free XP for locating all the enemy mechs.

One Lance goes on the attack trying to slip undetected into the enemy base.

One Lance stays home.

But the lance that stays home can't get "Arriving at Locus Point set by the Commander" XP if it doesn't leave the walls. So it has to do little patrols around the walls whenever the timer on their Commanders locus point placement thingy recharges.

End of the match should be if one team grabs the enemies base, If one team is annihilated or after... What 30 minutes? An hour for a grudge match? At which point it's just settled as a draw.

But that shouldn't happen just because of a powered down commando in the corner. Not with an undefended base right over there.

[Shai tan]

I like the Repair Bay idea.

"If repairing takes lots of time, players who run back for repair whenever they get a scratch will be ridiculed and pressured into playing more sensibly, which is a good thing"

Imho a Repair should only be allowed for a definate damage ratio percentage. Like if you are 65 to 75 % or more damagewise. Anything less, and the Repair Bay will just not work. I think it could be done in a tactical way. In the Bay you are wide open to attack, and would need Wingman for support/pretection.

Edited by shai`tan, 25 March 2012 - 09:34 PM.

[Belisarius1]

Please can we stop talking about repair bays?

Anyone who's actually played a real match on a bay map knows it's boring as all heck and very constraining. Making the bay time more punishing only means teams will be camped around them for even longer before growing a pair.

[Siilk]

I'm also against repair bays. Outlaw and Belisarius presented valid points of why having repair bays would suck. I, myself, seen a lot of repair bay camping which, in no respawn game would be even worse as people would be extremely hesitant to move away from it. Same goes for rearming: ammo should be a factor in a game(I really hope for the lack of MW4-style coolant to negate energy weapons' main drawback).