24 replies to this topic

[StainlessSR]

If you look across the internet you will be able to find a plethora of forum posts and columns from E-Writers that meander all across the swath of possible definitions. Recently, I have come across a site that sets definitions for slang.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/

I have used it as a source to look up some terms that I have come across what have perplexed me (808 bump) (G6) and found it to be a fairly conclusive resource. Now, slang becomes a part of the English language through a fairly consistent definition coming into being and also with widespread use. Words such as Internet, Email and Web were all either acronyms or just made-up words prior to their inclusion into the English language. The fact that there has come into existance a resource that may help speed up this process by allowing the populance at large to help define the terms could possibly help speed up this slow process.

so here are some of the definitions on that site:

http://www.urbandict...ne.php?term=p2w

http://www.urbandict...term=pay-to-win

The main consensus among these definitions is that it basically applies to items that create a game imbalance due to being available to those who pay cash. Now, it can possible be argued that that applies to MWO. However, there is one point that absolves MWO from the a fore mentioned situation. What is the game imbalance? That I, as a founder, can earn more c-bills when using a particular mech? Does the Subscription bonus create an imbalance? None of these situations change just how hard my weapons hit, or what mechs I can pilot that someone else cannot. With there being no C-Bill only mechs, weapons, armor, engine, equipment and/or modules there is no balance issue. Can I generate C-bills faster that others, yes. Can I buy a mech right away, yes. But where is the long term imbalance (which is what game balance is all about). If PayerA bought $30 in C-bills and FreeB didn't, when they both started on the first day, PayerA will have an owned mech that day, but three weeks down the road will PayerA have anything (other than mech bay slots) that FreeB doesn't? More that likely not. At that time they will both have access to the same items, both should have a store of C-Bills to buy those items with. Saying that is imbalanced is like saying that FreeB who plays 2 hours a day and 5 hours a day on the weekends is more powerful that FreeC who only plays 3 hours on the weekends only. And since FreeB is playing so much more and has more C-bills, mechs available he creates an imbalance for FreeC. That is the economic balance, the game play balance is covered by not having any item that affects game play that is not ultimately available to both parties. Balance is long term, not the first day or the first week.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Cockpit Hula girls make me more comfortable, and I play better when I'm more comfortable.

Your entire argument is invalid.

(edit - *wink*)

Edited by Prosperity Park, 21 October 2012 - 07:52 PM.

[DarkraiOfDoom]

i... didn't realise there was an argument about what pay to win was...
pay 2 win just means that a player that pays money gets an overall advantage, not just a short term advantage. Short term being that the f2p player ends up with the same things as the pay2win player.

... though frankly i dont really care if a game is pay to win or not. its fun beating people that pay money thinking that it matters.

[ROTHOSS]

Down with the hula girls...

[StainlessSR]

Several threads have hashed what the definition is back and forth. (and around and around, over and under....well you get the idea)

And while the hula girl is so op it isn't even funny, I think that the Bonsai Tree will have a better effect on game play.

[TwoFaced]

Pay to win...simple, advantage long or short, doesnt matter time frame.

In over aspects, if a ladder system or some sort of match, or system taking is provided in the future, the people with the better skill set win.

So lets look, Team A pays for xp advantage, captures set systems because of this advantage. Team B grinds, takes them way longer to take systems, however Team A already owns set system and has advantage of owning such systems.

That I am sorry to say is pay to win.

I keep hearing hula this, skin that. Simple fact if you are getting any in game advantage, it is pay to win. Sorry to burst ones bubble.

[Evinthal]

TwoFaced, on 21 October 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

I keep hearing hula this, skin that. Simple fact if you are getting any in game advantage, it is pay to win. Sorry to burst ones bubble.

Gee I didn't know that a cosmetic skin or a cosmetic hula girl in my cockpit as a visual enhancement made my weapons cool down faster, do more damage and generate less heat...

[DarkraiOfDoom]

... game advantage is not auto pay 2 win... it never was, and never will be...
pay to win, for example, would be WoT infamous "gold shells" (or bullets, i'm not sure, don't play it myself)
... do you see ANYTHING in MWO that relates to that? no? just "i get credits faster"? frankly, in the long term, its a completely useless advantage. if anything, its a disadvantage, because yes, you get credits faster, but after you have everything... whats the point? "I KEEP PLAYING!" for? credits!

frankly, at least the people that aren't paying take longer to get their stuff, so it feels more worthwhile.

[Gadd]

Yea, well, what about the coconut monkey? Hmmm? That will pug-stomp your hula girl any day.

[GetinmyBellah]

Finally, a constructive thread concerning this issue that I've seen a lot about lately. Namely sheer speculation, assumptions and, or simply whining. All of this without one ounce of facts spoken from the developers of the game itself. I applaud you Stainless. Although it's been hijacked by hula girls :snicker snort: it is great for someone to place common sense on this issue and not merely speculate or assume.

[Noth]

TwoFaced, on 21 October 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Pay to win...simple, advantage long or short, doesnt matter time frame.

In over aspects, if a ladder system or some sort of match, or system taking is provided in the future, the people with the better skill set win.

So lets look, Team A pays for xp advantage, captures set systems because of this advantage. Team B grinds, takes them way longer to take systems, however Team A already owns set system and has advantage of owning such systems.

That I am sorry to say is pay to win.

I keep hearing hula this, skin that. Simple fact if you are getting any in game advantage, it is pay to win. Sorry to burst ones bubble.

By that definition no F2P game is not pay 2 win.

[Felicitatem Parco]

TwoFaced, on 21 October 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

I keep hearing hula this, skin that. Simple fact if you are getting any in game advantage, it is pay to win. Sorry to burst ones bubble.

This will be a classic quote. Hula Girls are P2W.

Buddy, if a paying player drops repeatedly in a 1v1 match with the same exact Mech as a free player, and the win/loss ratio goes 50/50 over time, then I would not say that it's P2W. Does it matter if one of them grinded out their Mech faster if it doesn't make you win any more on the field?

The game isn't Pay to Win if it doesn't make you better than a free player.

Edited by Prosperity Park, 21 October 2012 - 10:08 PM.

[Sigismund]

Guys you're missing the biggest P2W thing ever. If someone has fluffy dice just disconnect right away. No bother even trying, he's gonna curb stomp you like a cool guy, while looking cool. I bet he wears shades under his neurohelmet.

[TwoFaced]

LOL, hula gurl is cosmetic, nothing to do with winning, but all the people paying, say that is all you get.

Fact is you get a huge advantage in cbills and xp, and gxo, which gives you an advantage, does it not?

I have seen this in so many free to play games. Pay people get level 100000000, will playing the same length as non pay with level 5.

Am I crying, no. As soon as they make it clear what premium is, I will prolly buy, I always do. I even stated that I would have bought founders pack if I got a beta key, but by the time I got the key, founders ended a few days later, I didnt have chance to play the game.

But question is, does paying players have advantage, yes, money and xp advantage. I would love to see some stats on how p2p people kill/death ratio vs f2p, see what the difference in actual numbers. I have a hunch that, that will show the advantage, numbers dont lie.

[Egomane]

TwoFaced, on 22 October 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Fact is you get a huge advantage in cbills and xp, and gxo, which gives you an advantage, does it not?

I have seen this in so many free to play games. Pay people get level 100000000, will playing the same length as non pay with level 5.

Not the case here. You don't gain a bazillion extra xp-points and c-bills.

TwoFaced, on 22 October 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

Am I crying, no. As soon as they make it clear what premium is, I will prolly buy, I always do. I even stated that I would have bought founders pack if I got a beta key, but by the time I got the key, founders ended a few days later, I didnt have chance to play the game.

Premium is a 50 % extra gain in XP and c-bills. Nothing else!

TwoFaced, on 22 October 2012 - 09:51 AM, said:

But question is, does paying players have advantage, yes, money and xp advantage. I would love to see some stats on how p2p people kill/death ratio vs f2p, see what the difference in actual numbers. I have a hunch that, that will show the advantage, numbers dont lie.

Your money and xp advantage is in fact a time advantage. A premium user gets 50 % more. That is not nearly as much as you might believe it is. Premium and non-premium players need a long time to buy a new mech. If both are of equal skill and the non-premium player plays exclusivly lights and the premium player exclusivly assaults, right now the non-premium player will most likely advance faster as the one who paid for extra xp and c-bills. As a light can easily take out an assault and vice versa, I assume both are valid play styles of equal power.

[Nighpher]

Here are some interesting reads on the subject of free to play:

http://www.ign.com/a...-and-pay-to-win

http://schedule.gdce...ty_in_F2P_Games

The current model that Piranha Games is using actually closely mimics the one used by League of Legends which is an amazing game still kick *** and never paid a cent for the longest time, then eventually bought a few skins, which provide absolutely no winning power.

Edited by Nighpher, 22 October 2012 - 10:18 AM.

[CriticalMass]

If people paying to support the developers (who have bills to pay to) upset you so much. Don't play the game!
The people who do pay allow it to be possible for people who can't even afford a min. sub. fee to play completely for free.

[Zergax]

i dont know how you call premium P2W all "premium members" get more is a 50% cbils bonus

to put it simply if i play (i am premium) 1 hour a day it would take a F2P player an hour and a half to get exactly what i got! (that is if he played with the same mech i did and an equal skill level)

now lets presume hes better than me and running a Jenner While im in a Catapult he will make MORE C-bills than me!

if you want to run an LRM Awsome with an XL engine and say that paying players is unfair because they can afford to run this mech and you cant maybe you should reconsider and buy something that dosent require so much C-Bills to repair and rearm (or you could just play more)

[Stormcrow IV]

Access to new equipment sooner than others is an advantage.
Even with identical equipment, the team that got access first still has an advantage, so anything that alters grind time still unbalances the game. Not much, mind you, but it can make a difference if the competitive environment is constantly pushing the boundaries of peak equipment/tactics like it should be.

The peak equipment/tactics only stay in dominance until it's replaced by the next new thing. Staying on top of a competitive game is about mastering that cycle and adapting to the new thing faster than everyone else so that you can be better at it than everyone else at the time of the competitive match. Time matters, folks.


If your entire team buys the hot new assault 'mech running 3 Gauss rifles and ECM while the other team (which is equal in every other way) is grinding toward those same 'mechs, your team has an advantage because your team paid money. Hence, pay to win.
If the team that just bought the wonder 'mechs is going up against a team that bought them a month ago and have practiced tactics to better use those 'mechs, then the team that got the 'mechs first has an advantage because they paid money.

Free-to-play games with the option to pay in place of grinding for new equipment will never provide equal footing for top-tier competitive communities because of that time advantage.

[LazDude2012]

It may, in some form, be P2W. If you define "any advantage, whatsoever, including time" as P2W, then yeah. It'll be pay to win. Would I have preferred they just charge $60 for the game and be done with it? Yup. That would have been nice. But, honestly, think of it as if you had paid $60 for the game, and just put that $60 into MC, or premium time. I'm paying nothing at the moment, and I still win 50% of my matches.