129 replies to this topic

[Paladin1]

Siilk, on 30 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Yes, MW based on BT. Not MW is not BT. MW series always had significant differences from TT and general BT lore. It has it's own distinctive style with mech portrayed more like a walking tanks rather than fully articulated humanoid robots. And you know what? It's better that way. MW is a lot more believable and realistic than TT, lack of melee being one of important factors here. So, you can think of me as a big MW fan, but not really a TT fan. And my desire is for MWO to preserve the spirit of MW, not TT.

You know, I just realized something here. You're hung up on MW having a different vibe than TT but I didn't realize fully what you were talking about until just now. The reason that previous MW games had a slightly different vibe was because they, for the most part, focused on the Clans, who refuse to utilize physical combat! That's part of the TT setting and is part of the lore. What you're seeing as a difference between TT and MW is actually just MW exploring a niche faction within the TT setting.

If you like that vibe, you need to investigate the Clans more and look into not only the better tech, but also the restrictions that come with that tech, such as no physical attacks and Clan Honor systems. What you also need to realize though is that the Inner Sphere doesn't restrict itself from using physical attacks or anything else and that's part of the background and feel of the game.

[Rear Admiral]

Siilk, on 30 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Yes, MW based on BT. Not MW is not BT. MW series always had significant differences from TT and general BT lore. It has it's own distinctive style with mech portrayed more like a walking tanks rather than fully articulated humanoid robots. And you know what? It's better that way. MW is a lot more believable and realistic than TT, lack of melee being one of important factors here. So, you can think of me as a big MW fan, but not really a TT fan. And my desire is for MWO to preserve the spirit of MW, not TT.

Where in BT are mechs portrayed as fully articulated humanoid robots? All the mechs in the MW video games to date have been taken from the lore. I think you are confusing the fact that some mechs have hands with the notion of 'fully articulated humanoid robots' lol whatever that means.

You speak of differences between TT and BT, the main one being a lack of melee. The reason for those differences are not because the developers wanted to be fresh and new, or because they were going for a more 'realistic' or 'believable' gamplay experience (LOL giant robots -- realistic!!!!). Its becuse they lacked the technical ability to include melee into the games. It wasnt a decision based on style, but necessity. I'd bet that if those old MW game designers could've implemented melee, they would have.

You left out some very important words in your text as well, the key ones being 'IN MY OPINION.' You say its better w/ out melee, ok, thats fine, thats just your opinion. There are many more of us who think that not only would any BT/MW sim be better w/ melee, but any MW/BT game without it is incomplete.

We've had 4 official MW games w/ no melee and a few other mods as well. You no-melee guys have had your day in the sun. Its our turn now. Its time for melee in MW.

One final thought: Why do the no-melee guys try so hard to force their version of BT on everybody? They all, to a man, call out melee as stupid and immersion breaking. They accuse those of us who like melee in BT/MW to be gundam fans (blech!), and take every opportunity to make themselves appear right by trying to be the 'cool kids.' Insults, disrespect of others points of views, and a lack of open-mindedness mark all the posts by these fellows that I've read. why are you guys so married to this idea of 'no melee' in BT? I mean, i've said it before, and many many others have too. Melee has always been a part of BT. And considering that its never been implemented before, meaning nobody has ever got to play mech melee in the BT universe, how can you possibly say that something is better without it? The fact is, YOU DONT KNOW THAT. And trying to convince people that it sucks and has no place are merit-less arguments that have no basis in reality.

[Solis Obscuri]

Siilk, on 30 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Yes, MW based on BT. Not MW is not BT. MW series always had significant differences from TT and general BT lore. It has it's own distinctive style with mech portrayed more like a walking tanks rather than fully articulated humanoid robots. And you know what? It's better that way. MW is a lot more believable and realistic than TT, lack of melee being one of important factors here. So, you can think of me as a big MW fan, but not really a TT fan. And my desire is for MWO to preserve the spirit of MW, not TT.

For simplified controls and game technology limitations, most of the earlier MW games dumbed down battlemechs to the point where they weren't even "tanks on legs". They were piles of boxes that walked around and could fire in a 180º forward arc with weapons that didn't obey the laws of physics, and observed a ridiculously elastic collision model on the occasions when they actually ran into something. It didn't make anything "better", but it made things functional for the standard of gaming at the time.

As much as I enjoyed MW2 and all its expansions and spin-offs, I'd be pretty disappointed if we got a carbon copy of its gameplay and physics, considering the industry-wide advances that have happened over the last 18 years.

Also, the devs have indicated they are creating their own game, not a reboot/rehash of MW2 or MW4 or MechAssault.

Siilk, on 30 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

I couldn't care less about "disadvantage". If you simly seek "free lunch"-style advantage in melee,

If I wanted "free lunch" advantages I'd be asking for a Mad Cat. ClanTech gets enough "free lunch" to feed a starving nation...

Siilk, on 30 March 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

I would be totally cool if all hand-equipped mechs would have "free" small lasers of the same total damage of TT "atlas bitchslap". I'm really that cool with any advantage melee might bring. It's ruining sim style with fistfights I'm concerned about. Oh, BTW, Clan mechs do look more plausible in general, as they are designed in later years, when Fasa stopped with ripping off anime designs and tried to came up with something unique.

Because you consider a punch and a laser beam to be the same thing, or just because it nerfs the infighting ability of the classic I.S. designs a little more?

Tuhalu, on 30 March 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

IF they include punches and kicks and hatchets and swords, all they need to do is make them have a 10 second cooldown (lorewise, so the myomer bundles don't overheat from impact stresses or something). Then it would still be fine. And I imagine you'd have a hard time firing any weapons at all while your mech goes through the punching or kicking motions. And there would be some mechs that just couldn't punch (Jenner, Stalker, Catapult, etc).

Yep, it should definitely take time to throw a punch or kick, and it should probably also involve temporarily disengaging any weapon systems in an arm used for punching. At that point, it's a choice to use melee if you're in close and either can do more damage physically than with arm-weapons, or are running to hot to keep firing, instead of just bonus damage from button-mashing.

[Fetladral]

those who say if melee is in MWO would be some kind of gundam game no battle mech could ever even hope to be that articulated. now that I think about it the mobile suits in gundam have so many vulnerabilities they arn't very realistic as a war machine. besides the shield they can't really take any hits. and they are pretty lazy with the "advanced armor of some type" making the one mobile suit nearly invulnerable to the normal ones. Even the more advanced armor in BT is lighter but not neccisarily stronger and even if it is stronger it's only a fraction stronger not 10 times stronger. I hate most of the gundam series simply for the fact that most are the SAME story. They start in space go to earth come back to space. The melee the mobile suits in space is really unrelistic simply because of the speeds they are moving at I think the mobile suit would break from the parrying and stuff of the blades. The physics would destroy the wrists from the forces and speed at which blades connect.

Edited by Fetladral, 30 March 2012 - 10:45 AM.

[Volthorne]

By all means, let's keep comparing physically possible future-tech to anime which will never happen! Let's go one step past Gundam and say all BT mimics Guren Laghan in THAT sort of fighting style. Anime is anime for a a reason, that reason simply being: it's physically impossible, except for a bio-mechanical race of giant aliens (oh wait that was done in War of the Worlds and their mechs were still slow as f***). You will NEVER see a BT mech punch at 100kph (o equivalent mph), nor will you see it do a Butterfly Kick (frankly, that would be ridiculous), or any other fancy martial-arts type move.

[Fetladral]

The ones where melee is possible and really simple stuff but still seldom used are the only ones that seem plausible (whether they could actually be built at some in the future who knows) so BT is plausible since they can't do really fancy stuff. Some mechs might be able to do a scissor kick but really impractical to ever use one plus they need to be in the air which if done would probably result in the mech being destroyed by crashing into the ground. So a 50+ ton mech landing on it's cockpit would be kinda anti-climatic

[Chang Wufei]

When you're out of ammo, a simple combat knife style blade can really come in handy.

[Siilk]

Volthorne, on 30 March 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

Siilk, have you been paying attention to ANYTHING that's been said? MechWarrior = term for pilot *IN* the battlemech. Without BattleTech, there is no MechWarrior, simply because they'd all be sitting on their *****, twiddling their thumbs.

You guys just love to play with wording, aren't you? Oh kaaaaay. MechWarrior™, the video game franchise, is based on Battletech™, the tabletop game, and shares some key aspects of Battletech™, the fictional universe. But MechWarrior™, the video game franchise, is not Battletech™, the tabletop game and not everything in MechWarrior™, the video game franchise 100% compliant to Battletech™, the fictional universe. And it will be better for MWO, which tries to be a spiritual successor of MechWarrior™, the video game franchise to stay that way.

Volthorne, on 30 March 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

The reasons why MW games have never featured melee is because of coding limitations, and hardware limitations. A lot of those games would have been made back when Quake (original) would have been considered "decent" in both graphics and scripting departments (no melee attacks there either).

No melee attacks in what games? Games of that period? There was a sh1tton of games with melee at that times, aforementioned Quake being one of them. It would be quite simple to add something similar to Quake's axe attack or Duke Nukem's mighty foot to MW2(or even 1 for that matter) but melee was deliberately left out, it was purely devs' design decision because it was better that way.

Volthorne, on 30 March 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

Not a question of "if" anymore, so much debate sparked in this thread

Hardly so. There was no confirmation of kicking/punching.

Volthorne, on 30 March 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

Direct-fire support lining up a shot on a friend? punch him in the back of the head to mess with his aiming. Ambushed by an Hunchback while piloting a Commando? Run around behind him and kick a leg out from under him (and then run the hell away as fast as you can, provided you're still alive to make the kick).

Ramming and DFA are what you need. I mean how will you even make your beloved melee attack in such situation without charging and ramming the target? Stop right in front of it before punching? Oh, and ranged attack is still way more appropriate in such situation that anything above. You know, with all that fancy weapons, your mech is loaded with.

Oppi, on 30 March 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Not having melee attacks ruins the sim style, because in a "real" mech fight you just would not frikkin stand there and do nothing if your heat score was too high to shoot and you had the option to just shove your arm in someones cockpit instead.

Ok, if you want to be that accurate with wording, it ruins MW(again, as in MW™, the videogame) style.

Oppi, on 30 March 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Do you honestly think that this insane contraption that places the cockpit in front of everything else, making the pilot a meatshield for the reactor,

An insane design? Seriously?

Oppi, on 30 March 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

having no plausible way of reloading the missile pods (which are perfect targets for snipers btw, because they stand out so much and will cause a fine ammo explosion when hit) and would constantly keep hitting it's hip and legs with it's own arms if the torso was turned more than about 20 degrees looks more plausible than a warhammer, which is one of the designs ripped off some anime stuff that you were just talking about ? This is ridiculous.

btw : Nearly every second Clan mech shares one or two of the issues I just pointed out at the Timberwolf example.

True. You just forgot to mention that this could be applied to any mech. Guess why? Because tall bipedal design is not really practical for a weapon platform to begin with. Hence you point is moot.

Paladin1, on 30 March 2012 - 06:04 AM, said:

You know, I just realized something here. You're hung up on MW having a different vibe than TT but I didn't realize fully what you were talking about until just now. The reason that previous MW games had a slightly different vibe was because they, for the most part, focused on the Clans, who refuse to utilize physical combat!

Reread this:

Siilk, on 29 March 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:

Clan-centred? Hardly so. Of all 9 MW games(and that would be MW1, MW2, MW2:GBL, MW2:Mercs, MW3, MW3:PM, MW4, MW4:BK and MW4:Mercs), only 2 (MW2 and MW2:GBL) have Clan warriors as protagonists. All the rest are purely IS based, with Clans posing purely as "big baddies". The most popular and successful ones are both of Mercs' incarnation BTW, both strictly IS-bound.

In what way is that "for the most part, focused on the Clans"?

Solis Obscuri, on 30 March 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

Because you consider a punch and a laser beam to be the same thing, or just because it nerfs the infighting ability of the classic I.S. designs a little more?

If you have any troubles understanding the point I made, let me rephrase it again. I have no concern in damaging abilities of melee whatsoever. My concern is purely game style/mood/aesthetics being ruined by mechs bitchslapping each other, simply as that.

[Moosehead]

Tuhalu, on 30 March 2012 - 02:35 AM, said:

Besides Titans being rather larger than Mechs you mean? Yeah, that's an even sillier comparison.

CC is good for Titans too

[Ghost]

This thread is getting rather redundant, wouldn't you all agree? We're back to "melee vs. no melee" once again, and there are other threads in which this is argued (endlessly, alas). Siilk, consider this your first official warning for evading the profanity filter. I'm closing this thread before things get really ugly.