74 replies to this topic

[wpmaura]

Riptor, on 30 March 2012 - 09:54 AM, said:

Well everyone... they allready showed us concept art of an unseen....

Also used its "insides" in their trailer... and im not talking about the one with the warhammer... its not even a mech...

I know the drop ship

[Riptor]

Precisely.. leopard dropship is from crusher joe where it was called the minerva.

[Kanton]

LackofCertainty, on 30 March 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

As attached to the unseen as people are, the fact of the matter is they are stolen designs. The mechwarrior/battletech people are the bad guys in this scenario.

No, I don't think this is true. As I understand it, FASA did in fact properly license the designs from the original Japanese creators of Macross, Dougram, and Crusher Joe back in 1984 when first edition came out. The plastic model company Revell had also created licensed models of the mecha from these anime and sold them under the Robotech brand name in 1984- all of this before Harmony Gold USA ripped content from Macross, Southern Cross, and Mospeada to create the American series Robotech released in 1985. Turns out that although Harmony Gold had also licensed Macross from its original creators in 1984 to distribute direct-to-video in the American market, their plans- extending the 36-episode series into 65 episodes, by ripping content from other anime and releasing to television instead, plus merchandising- were interrupted by the fact that Revell was already laying claim to the designs in the USA with their model line. Lawsuits ensued, ending in a co-licensing agreement between Revell and Harmony Gold, in which HG was forced to rename their series to Robotech to be consistent with Revell's existing model line, and in which HG would have no merchandising rights. An additional lawsuit between Revell and Hasbro, another toy maker, resulted in Hasbro's victory. Thus all three of these companies reached agreements by which the artwork from Macrosscould continue to be used for their own products.

Except for FASA, who couldn't afford the litigation despite having already licensed the designs from their original creators.

TL;DR: FASA properly licensed the original designs from their Japanese creators, but couldn't afford to fight in lawsuits with larger American corporations who were attempting to claim exclusive rights to these Japanese designs in the US. Those corporations didn't succeed and were finally forced to share after much litigation, but FASA couldn't P2W.

Otherwise, I concur with everything else said. FlyingDebris is doing fantastic work re-imagining/modernizing many classic BT mechs while remaining consistent with the general layout and apperance of their original designs. The BT community could do much worse (cough Project Phoenix cough) than canonizing FD redesigns of Unseen.

[Oswin Aurelius]

LackofCertainty, on 30 March 2012 - 09:27 AM, said:

As attached to the unseen as people are, the fact of the matter is they are stolen designs. The mechwarrior/battletech people are the bad guys in this scenario. Just take our lumps, sacrifice the "real" designs and have an artist (like FD) come up with something new.

Man, why does no one seem to know why the Unseen are unseen? Battletech asked the CREATORS of the designs if they could use them. They said sure. However, with Japanese copyright laws, the creators never actually held the rights to the designs. Harmony Gold did, and that's who sued, and the rest is history.

EDIT: My apologies, I didn't see the second page when I replied. Thanks for the detailed info, Kanton. Apparently I had a slightly off story, too. :x

Edited by Oswin Aurelius, 30 March 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[Gigaton]

I don't want to pay HG anything. I do like the unseen though and they are important part Succession War era equipment. But any redesign should start from the reseen versions to be safe. But I won't die or curse the inherent curelty of the cosmos even if we don't get any.

[wpmaura]

Gigaton, on 30 March 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

I don't want to pay HG anything. I do like the unseen though and they are important part Succession War era equipment. But any redesign should start from the reseen versions to be safe. But I won't die or curse the inherent curelty of the cosmos even if we don't get any.

yes but now it looks like Harmony Gold never actually held the rights to begin with they licensed them from someone how did not own the rights

[Oswin Aurelius]

wpmaura, on 30 March 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

yes but now it looks like Harmony Gold never actually held the rights to begin with they licensed them from someone how did not own the rights

Well that's the most blatantly unsupported statement I've heard today.

[GDL Irishwarrior]

wpmaura, on 30 March 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

they have said many times that was ingame footage of mwo. and how do they plan on making money if you can buy everything with in game money. It would be the equivalent of buying an expansion pack. give people 16 mechs if they want more they pay for it. as long as the new mechs are not better then any of the 16 they give you for free

Considering how much money Steam makes off of Team Fortress 2 (where everything, INCLUDING the cosmetic items, can be obtained without paying money), I'm thinking MWO can have everything available for C-Bills and do just fine...

Edited by GDL Irishwarrior, 30 March 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[Seabear]

The basic ideas of the unseen chasises is available. The designers have already shown what they can do. Turn them loose and see what they come up without stepping on HG's rather large and ubiquitius toes. HG seems to think they have a right to any image of the old mechs that have legs , arms or weapons. They cannot seem to realize they are not the center of the big mech universe anymore.

[Solis Obscuri]

wpmaura, on 30 March 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

yes but now it looks like Harmony Gold never actually held the rights to begin with they licensed them from someone how did not own the rights

Yes and no.

Studio Nue has the IP rights to the Macross series, and, along with their financial backer Big West Advertising, were licensing use of their IP to several Japanese toymakers like Nichimo, IMAI, Bandai, and ARII. Tatsunoko entered into business with Studio Nue in the early eighties, and also gained rights to the Macross designs, as well as overseas distribution rights to the US. Tatsunok licensed to Revel in the eighties to distribute the toys in the US, which it marketed as Robotech, and Revel licensed to Harmony Gold to create the Robotech animated series to adapt Macross to US television. Harmony Gold made quite a bit of money and bought the trademark rights to Robotech from Revel.

Meanwhile, a company in Colorado called Twentieth Century Imports had entered into import and repackaging agreements with several Japanese companies including Bandai and Nichimo, in order to sell their toys in the US. FASA purchased rights from TCI to use some of those toys in their Battletech games, including Crusher Joe, Macross, and Fang of the Sun Dougram.

Around 1985, Harmony Gold got wind of FASAs game, and about a decade worth of legal correspondence ensued. Action in the courts didn't really tip off until the mid-nineties, when a legal action between FASA and Playmates toys (who had gotten rights to some of the old Macross designs from Harmony Gold) found in favor of Playmates and Harmony Gold.

In any case, the IP belongs to Studio Nue still, but the distribution rights were always the crux of this issue - and those have been judged in favor of Harmony Gold, who had the money to procure them directly via Tatsunoko, rather than FASA's somewhat circuituous claim to prior rights from Nichimo through TCI. It's also noteworthy that Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold also had a bit of a dust-up with Studio Nue and Big West Advertising over distribution rights in Japan, which did not go in Harmony Gold's favor.

However, most of Unseen the Crusher Joe and Fang of the Sun Dougram designs that FASA used have been resolved with Bandai and Studio Nue, so there's no reason for designs like the Locust, Griffin, Shadow Cat, Battlemaster, and Thunderbolt to be kept out of the game, though I wouldn't be surprised if Harmony Gold tried to put up a stink over any designs originally related to models of designs from the Macross series, even if they are heavily Reseen.

[Sychodemus]

Well, according the HAB2, there seems to be some kind of "final" Unseen/Reseen resolution coming soon. Most likely completely new artwork (perhaps even MWO-directed, which would be a wise use of resources.)
I wouldn't be too surprised if any unseen/reseen/yet-again-to-be-seen in MWO would be released very close to (or after) launch.

[GrimJim]

Solis Obscuri, on 30 March 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Yes and no.

Studio Nue has the IP rights to the Macross series, and, along with their financial backer Big West Advertising, were licensing use of their IP to several Japanese toymakers like Nichimo, IMAI, Bandai, and ARII. Tatsunoko entered into business with Studio Nue in the early eighties, and also gained rights to the Macross designs, as well as overseas distribution rights to the US. Tatsunok licensed to Revel in the eighties to distribute the toys in the US, which it marketed as Robotech, and Revel licensed to Harmony Gold to create the Robotech animated series to adapt Macross to US television. Harmony Gold made quite a bit of money and bought the trademark rights to Robotech from Revel.

Meanwhile, a company in Colorado called Twentieth Century Imports had entered into import and repackaging agreements with several Japanese companies including Bandai and Nichimo, in order to sell their toys in the US. FASA purchased rights from TCI to use some of those toys in their Battletech games, including Crusher Joe, Macross, and Fang of the Sun Dougram.

Around 1985, Harmony Gold got wind of FASAs game, and about a decade worth of legal correspondence ensued. Action in the courts didn't really tip off until the mid-nineties, when a legal action between FASA and Playmates toys (who had gotten rights to some of the old Macross designs from Harmony Gold) found in favor of Playmates and Harmony Gold.

In any case, the IP belongs to Studio Nue still, but the distribution rights were always the crux of this issue - and those have been judged in favor of Harmony Gold, who had the money to procure them directly via Tatsunoko, rather than FASA's somewhat circuituous claim to prior rights from Nichimo through TCI. It's also noteworthy that Tatsunoko and Harmony Gold also had a bit of a dust-up with Studio Nue and Big West Advertising over distribution rights in Japan, which did not go in Harmony Gold's favor.

However, most of Unseen the Crusher Joe and Fang of the Sun Dougram designs that FASA used have been resolved with Bandai and Studio Nue, so there's no reason for designs like the Locust, Griffin, Shadow Cat, Battlemaster, and Thunderbolt to be kept out of the game, though I wouldn't be surprised if Harmony Gold tried to put up a stink over any designs originally related to models of designs from the Macross series, even if they are heavily Reseen.

Two corrections here:

1st -- while brewing for years, the whole sh*tstorm was tipped off in the 90's when FASA SUED the toymaker for HG because of perceived infringement of the line of BattleTech toys that had come out for the animated series. A colossal backfire happened when the ruling came down opposite of what was hoped. (Most ppl assume that HG fired the first shot in the 90's)

2nd -- The Dougram and Crusher Joe designs seem to sadly be verboten again.

Edited by GrimJim, 30 March 2012 - 04:21 PM.

[Jacob Davion]

GrimJim, on 30 March 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

Two corrections here:

1st -- while brewing for years, the whole sh*tstorm was tipped off in the 90's when FASA SUED the toymaker for HG because of perceived infringement of the line of BattleTech toys that had come out for the animated series. A colossal backfire happened when the ruling came down opposite of what was hoped.

Looks like you're the toymaker, by the way that quote looks. I'm sorry that happened to you, I think you did a good job with the mechs ANYWAY!

[Oswin Aurelius]

Sarcasm is very unbecoming of you, Jacob.

[Solis Obscuri]

GrimJim, on 30 March 2012 - 04:20 PM, said:

2nd -- The Dougram and Crusher Joe designs seem to sadly be verboten again.

When did that change?

[cinco]

why give flying debris more work to salvage ****** looking mechs?

[Mason Grimm]

We all behaving in here? Good!!!

[GDL Irishwarrior]

cinco, on 30 March 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

why give flying debris more work to salvage ****** looking mechs?

Because most of them look great, and because they all have excellent capabilities. They very much deserve to be in this game, provided they get a visual redesign so HG can't get pissy again

[Aidan Ramsdell]

...This and the Clan topics are the only ones which I have seen break down into this kind of verbal debate. Me for once in my life, am simply going to step back, and eat popcorn in my Warhammer.

[Yranuis]

All I know is that I want the Unseen in the game and I will gladly shell out big cash for them. If they don't look like the classic designs, I'll buy my favorites: Marauder, Warhammer, Archer, and Phoenix Hawk with whipped cream and a Locust on top. If they DO look like the classic designs, I'll buy all of 'em, freak out, and probably lose my marriage as I obsess over playing them.

You know what I would pay super big bucks for? Being able to do high-risk high-speed recon in a Skimmer. That would be friggin' awesome--going twice the speed of a Locust between the legs of an enemy mech while I throw a magnetic GPS on it or some such. That would be a virtual rush.