36 replies to this topic

[boogle]

Why is it that all engines contain 10 'free' heatsinks regardless of their size. For example the fusion engine in the urbanmech (60) contains the same number of inherent heatsinks as the massive 400 rated engine in the charger.

It seems to me that larger engines should contain more heatsinks. A certain engine size could be given an arbitrary number of heatsinks and larger or smaller engines could have their numbers adjusted accordingly. I.E. 200 rating = 10 heatsinks. 100 rating (100/200)*10= 5 heatsinks, 300 rating (300/200)*10 = 15 heatsinks

This conversion ratio is not set in stone, but I believe that this is a much more realistic method for apportioning heatsinks; and it's something that has bothered me about engines in every mechwarrior game to date.

[Insidious Johnson]

It does beg the question as to whether or not there are various sizes of heatsinks specific to engine/chassis sizes. If there are, it is assumed they are easily convertible to ALL other sizes on the acquisition/purchase of a generic heat sink. Good question!

[Gun Bear]

I assume it represents that all engines have the same size cooling module.

[Insidious Johnson]

but the critical slot size for a flea = critical slot size for atlas?

[boogle]

Gun Bear, on 08 April 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

I assume it represents that all engines have the same size cooling module.

Yes, but 10 heatsinks would weigh more than the entire engine on some smaller mechs. In addition a higher power output is going to require a larger cooling module (or whatever it's called in canon).

[MacabreDerek]

In the TT varrient, you always had 10 heat sinks which were considered standard for an Engines efficancy, but not all the Heat Sinks would be hidden inside it, and many would be forced to take up space elsewhere on the mech.

For the purposes of MWO, aligning Heat Sinks is more of a waste of time. Unless you're willing to go through the whole process of building a mech from scratch, the system of distributing heat-sinks really isnt much of a factor, as it would be assumed (using Hard Points system) that the Heat Sinks, Endo-Steel, Ferro-Fibros, etc is eating up most of the mechs invisible allocation slots.

[Gun Bear]

boogle, on 08 April 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Yes, but 10 heatsinks would weigh more than the entire engine on some smaller mechs. In addition a higher power output is going to require a larger cooling module (or whatever it's called in canon).

boogle, on 08 April 2012 - 03:03 PM, said:

Yes, but 10 heatsinks would weigh more than the entire engine on some smaller mechs. In addition a higher power output is going to require a larger cooling module (or whatever it's called in canon).

The perhaps the size of the cooling module is the same relative to the size of the engine. It was originally done for simplicitys sake since the game is already insanely math intensive it made heat simple and balanced and they saw it was 'ok'. So far the Dev team wants to stick to the canon so they will probbaly use the existing formula.

[Kensyn]

Was just typing it out lol... I would think (again, for simplicities sake) that it is relative...Man stands 12 feet tall, his hands are just as proportionate as those of a Dwarf at 4 foot tall...(bare with my horrible analogy lol)...

Say, Im new (not to the Battletech premise- i played the RPG over 20 yrs ago) to this online idea for this game, can anyone tell me where to find the Mech Specs?

Sorry if i am breaking some forum protocol...

[Adridos]

Kensyn, on 08 April 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Say, Im new (not to the Battletech premise- i played the RPG over 20 yrs ago) to this online idea for this game, can anyone tell me where to find the Mech Specs?

Aside from the books?

Maybe Solaris7.com has what you need.

[Gun Bear]

Kensyn, on 08 April 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Was just typing it out lol... I would think (again, for simplicities sake) that it is relative...Man stands 12 feet tall, his hands are just as proportionate as those of a Dwarf at 4 foot tall...(bare with my horrible analogy lol)...

Say, Im new (not to the Battletech premise- i played the RPG over 20 yrs ago) to this online idea for this game, can anyone tell me where to find the Mech Specs?

Sorry if i am breaking some forum protocol...

To my knowledge the only available info is some of the 'mechs that will be seen in the game. I'm assuming they will closely resmble their canon cousins statistically.

Edited by Gun Bear, 08 April 2012 - 03:22 PM.

[Kensyn]

Thank u both. Happy Easter to u and urs ( everyone ).

[Johannes Falkner]

boogle, on 08 April 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Why is it that all engines contain 10 'free' heatsinks regardless of their size. For example the fusion engine in the urbanmech (60) contains the same number of inherent heatsinks as the massive 400 rated engine in the charger.

It seems to me that larger engines should contain more heatsinks. A certain engine size could be given an arbitrary number of heatsinks and larger or smaller engines could have their numbers adjusted accordingly. I.E. 200 rating = 10 heatsinks. 100 rating (100/200)*10= 5 heatsinks, 300 rating (300/200)*10 = 15 heatsinks

This conversion ratio is not set in stone, but I believe that this is a much more realistic method for apportioning heatsinks; and it's something that has bothered me about engines in every mechwarrior game to date.

The TT construction rules include 10 heatsinks with the engine weight.
The engine can incorporate more or fewer heatsinks according to its rating. For each full multiple of 25 in the engine rating you include the crits of the (single or double) heatsinks in the engine. This is part of the reason why some mechs like the Timber Wolf (mad cat to spheroids) are so powerful as energy weapon platforms. The TW has a 375 rated engine (75 tons at 5/8) and therefore can (and does) include 15 (double) heatsinks in the engine. Ten heatsinks were "free" with the engine and 5 more were added in the base configuration. The Flashman is a prime IS example. The Trashcan, R2-D2, BattleDroid, er *UrbanMech* is a counter example. It has a 60 rated engine and 11 heatsinks and must allocate 9 of them.

There is room to argue about the number of "free" heatsinks by engine size, but the TT rules already account for varying the number of incorporated heatsinks.

I would note a little bit of thermodynamics that you have probably not considered as well. You dissipate heat by surface area and smaller cylinders (treat mech torsos/legs/heads/arms as cylinder for simplicity) have a higher relative surface area than larger cylinders. This gives lighter mechs a proportionally higher dissipation rate by convection/radiation than heavier mechs.

Mech heat generation would also scale with size (weight, specifically). Heavier mechs would require more/stronger myomers with more power to drive them. By the time you say that a heavier mech would generate more heat just to move and be worse at radiating it away without aid, it becomes relatively fair, thermodynamically, to give lighter mechs "undeserved" free heatsinks.

[Der Kommissar]

No.

Learn to balance your heat.

[boogle]

Der Kommissar, on 08 April 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

No.

Learn to balance your heat.

Your post brings nothing to the table and does not address the issue of inherent heatsinks not being tied to engine size/power. Perhaps der kommissar should read the above post(s) again.

[Fetladral]

Kensyn, on 08 April 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Was just typing it out lol... I would think (again, for simplicities sake) that it is relative...Man stands 12 feet tall, his hands are just as proportionate as those of a Dwarf at 4 foot tall...(bare with my horrible analogy lol)...

Say, Im new (not to the Battletech premise- i played the RPG over 20 yrs ago) to this online idea for this game, can anyone tell me where to find the Mech Specs?

Sorry if i am breaking some forum protocol...

There's the unofficial MW:O wiki

http://www.mwowiki.o...title=Main_Page

(not sure I'm supposed to post or not nor how accurate all the variants are which ones will be in or not the chassis yes the variants not so much)

They are also somewhere on the site. I think if you go into the dev section of the forums they have the release information of mechs.

[Jake Valeck]

engine size / 25 = total allowable hs's in engine

example:

300 / 25 = (up to)12 hs's

Johannes Falkner said this but seemed a bit longwinded for some people
keeping it simple

[Pht]

boogle, on 08 April 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

Why is it that all engines contain 10 'free' heatsinks regardless of their size. For example the fusion engine in the urbanmech (60) contains the same number of inherent heatsinks as the massive 400 rated engine in the charger. It seems to me that larger engines should contain more heatsinks. A certain engine size could be given an arbitrary number of heatsinks and larger or smaller engines could have their numbers adjusted accordingly. I.E. 200 rating = 10 heatsinks. 100 rating (100/200)*10= 5 heatsinks, 300 rating (300/200)*10 = 15 heatsinks This conversion ratio is not set in stone, but I believe that this is a much more realistic method for apportioning heatsinks; and it's something that has bothered me about engines in every mechwarrior game to date.

"heat sinks" in the engine aren't actually heat sinks proper, as are used in the rest of the mech. They're only tracked as such for ease.

They're actually an integral part of the secondary heat reclamation system of the fusion engine... and larger engines can have larger regenerative cooling systems (more "heatsinks").

Quote

The second way of generating power is purely secondary and is called regenerative cooling. Regenerative cooling uses waste heat to generate power. Usually this is done with a closed-cycle gas or steam turbine. In a small way this is a part of the 'Mechs cooling system, even though this is not a part of the heat sink system proper. Regenerative cooling machinery is very different from purpose built heat sinks. The regenerative cooling system adds negligible volume to the engine, due to its using the existing plumbing of the engines cooling system. It would be quite useful if all the waste heat from an engine could be soaked up by these so-called "integral heat sinks," but practical limitations mean only so much energy can be extracted from this lower-quality source. Bigger engines make more waste heat and can have larger regenerative cooling systems, but most 'Mechs will use some conventional heat sinks placed elsewhere to handle the excess.

http://www.sarna.net...ower_Generation

[osito]

Yes some larger engines allow more heat sinks to be in the engine compartment. I think you get the standard 10 sinks in engine as a base for your heat usage. The engine makers don't always know what mech or what weapons the mech will have. So you get the bear minimum they think you will need. If your mech runs hot then the mech designers should add in more sinks. You get 10 sinks as a freebie. If you need more then you have to take that into account and add them.

[Pht]

osito, on 08 April 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Yes some larger engines allow more heat sinks to be in the engine compartment. I think you get the standard 10 sinks in engine as a base for your heat usage. The engine makers don't always know what mech or what weapons the mech will have. So you get the bear minimum they think you will need. If your mech runs hot then the mech designers should add in more sinks. You get 10 sinks as a freebie. If you need more then you have to take that into account and add them.

The "ten heatsinks" (they are NOT heatsinks!) are required to absorb the waste heat of the fusion engine.

[boogle]

Pht,
Regardless of what their technical function is, they are listed as heatsinks in every technical readout (that i've seen anyway) and they dissipate heat as a heatsink normally would. In addition, upgrading the heatsinks of a mech to double heatsinks doubles the 'value' of the inherent heatsinks as well. In summary all evidence points to a fusion engine granting a mech 10 heatsinks regardless of power plant size.