17 replies to this topic

[Richard Hazen]

Was just wondering since the I was running next to a hellbringer in my hunchback today and it just seemed really similar.

By based off I mean, when the Star Leagues fellas went off and formed the clans and created their new mechs did they take their Hunchbacks and go to town on them pimp my ride style?

Edited by Deimos Alpha, 17 June 2015 - 02:20 PM.

[Tyrnea Smurf]

Not really. The Hellbringer has much more in common in general design with the original unseen Warhammer.

As to the MWO version of the Hellbringer look, as compared to the Hunchback, again to me it really does not share any major commonality that I personally see.

[Nightshade24]

Mist lynx = Sling
Stormcrow (omnimech) = Corvis (battlemech mix omnimech (very early modularization, predecessor to omni mechs) = Mercury
Hellbringer = Warhammer
Summoner = Thunderbolt
Ebon Jaguar = Marauder (vague)
Timberwolf = Marauder and Catapult
Behemoth = Omega (150 ton mech, leg and engine failures are common with this guy)
Executioner = Highlander
Gargoyle = Charger
Supernova = Kingcrab
Hellhound = Wolverine IIC = Wolverine

(all IIC are based of original SLDF mechs)

The clan counterpart to the Hunchback would be the Hunchback IIC.


Bishop Steiners design for the IIC in MW: O

[Lugin]

Nightshade24, on 17 June 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

Mist lynx = Sling
Stormcrow (omnimech) = Corvis (battlemech mix omnimech (very early modularization, predecessor to omni mechs) = Mercury
Hellbringer = Warhammer
Summoner = Thunderbolt
Ebon Jaguar = Marauder (vague)
Timberwolf = Marauder and Catapult
Behemoth = Omega (150 ton mech, leg and engine failures are common with this guy)
Executioner = Highlander
Gargoyle = Charger
Supernova = Kingcrab
Hellhound = Wolverine IIC = Wolverine

(all IIC are based of original SLDF mechs)
(images removed)

Not quite.

The Mercury is basis for all Omni tech.
Mist Lynx was developed from the Sling. No issue.
Stormcrow is an Omni Corvis, No issue.
Hellbringer is basically an Omni Warhammer. There's also the Warhammer IIC assault mech.
Summnoner is based off the Thresher. Whether there's a direct link to the Tbolt is debatable.
Ebon Jaguar was designed as a replacement for the Hellbringer. Links to the Marauder debatable.
Timber Wolf is the Woodsman's replacement. Marauder and Catapult were what Phelan Kell's computer kept flipping between trying to ID it.
Stone Rhino(Behemoth) is based on the Matar, a failed 110 ton Amaris prototype. The Omega is later, taking info from both.
Executioner's actually related to the Kodiak. Unknown if any links to the Highlander beyond role though.
Gargoyle is another Woodsman descendant. The Charger only really shares speed and mass.
Supernova is a non-ammo King Crab. And the Nova is an Omni version of it.
Conjurer(Hellhound) is a Wolverine IIC, and was initially reported as such.

Edited by Lugin, 18 June 2015 - 12:08 AM.

[Nightshade24]

Lugin, on 18 June 2015 - 12:04 AM, said:

Not quite.

The Mercury is basis for all Omni tech.
Mist Lynx was developed from the Sling. No issue.
Stormcrow is an Omni Corvis, No issue.
Hellbringer is basically an Omni Warhammer. There's also the Warhammer IIC assault mech.
Summnoner is based off the Thresher. Whether there's a direct link to the Tbolt is debatable.
Ebon Jaguar was designed as a replacement for the Hellbringer. Links to the Marauder debatable.
Timber Wolf is the Woodsman's replacement. Marauder and Catapult were what Phelan Kell's computer kept flipping between trying to ID it.
Stone Rhino(Behemoth) is based on the Matar, a failed 110 ton Amaris prototype. The Omega is later, taking info from both.
Executioner's actually related to the Kodiak. Unknown if any links to the Highlander beyond role though.
Gargoyle is another Woodsman descendant. The Charger only really shares speed and mass.
Supernova is a non-ammo King Crab. And the Nova is an Omni version of it.
Conjurer(Hellhound) is a Wolverine IIC, and was initially reported as such.

It is true that the Mercury is the bassis for all omnimech, but it directly gave birth to the Corvis, the "first" clan omnimech (it isn't fully an omnimech, it's awkwardly in the middle, but due to the fact the Mercury gave birth and heavily inspired the Corvis and the Corvis is what gave birth to the stormcrow, thats'\ why I made that link)

I am familiar with the targeting computer ID part for the Timberwolf, However it is true the Timberwolf is to replace the woodsman, but replacing doesn't mean based to an essence. I may be wrong lore wise: but the people who MADE the timberwolf for BT wanted it to carry the catapult and marauder feels. MAD reasons is due to MAD being unseen, Catapult due to making it differ to the MAD to prevent a lawsuit.

You got me with the Matar and Omega xD both are over 100 tons, both are simular chassies and both are to heavy to the point of failure, You got me there =3


Conjurer (hellhound) is technically the later Wolverine IIC's. kind of like the uber late WWII spitfires became Spitefuls and how the Tempests became Furys.

of course... the name change was not due to difference but mainly the fact Clan Wolverine was very hated.



I should mention now the arctic cheetah is based of the mist lynx as a superior version/ replacer.

Note: We should have the Woodsman in game...

[Chiasson Brinker]

The reason why the Hellhound/Conjurer is called as such is due to the not named clan and anything associated with them being taboo.

[Sasuga]

Nightshade24, on 17 June 2015 - 11:01 PM, said:

Mist lynx = Sling
Stormcrow (omnimech) = Corvis (battlemech mix omnimech (very early modularization, predecessor to omni mechs) = Mercury
Hellbringer = Warhammer
Summoner = Thunderbolt
Ebon Jaguar = Marauder (vague)
Timberwolf = Marauder and Catapult
Behemoth = Omega (150 ton mech, leg and engine failures are common with this guy)
Executioner = Highlander
Gargoyle = Charger
Supernova = Kingcrab
Hellhound = Wolverine IIC = Wolverine

Some of the The Innserphere names for the Clan Mechs gave away some of their similarities as well, for example:
Thor = Summoner = Thunderbolt
Madcat = Timberwolf = Marauder and Catapult

[FerrokenFibrous]

Nightshade24, on 18 June 2015 - 12:46 AM, said:

Note: We should have the Woodsman in game...

I would rather have an Assault 'Mech with less pod space than a Light, than a 'Mech considered obsolete long before the Clan Invasion.

[Nightshade24]

FerrokenFibrous, on 24 April 2016 - 07:57 PM, said:

I would rather have an Assault 'Mech with less pod space than a Light, than a 'Mech considered obsolete long before the Clan Invasion.

Can you name an Assault mech with less pod space than a light? no? exactly.
Woodsman was still used in the 2nd line (or was it garrison?) and thus it has as much right in game as the kingcrab, kodiak, or all IIC's.

[Nightshade24]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 26 April 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

Woodsman was second line and garrison by the time of the Clan invasion if I recall. It served as both. King Crab technically shouldn't even be in the game (strictly lore wise). By this timeline they are EXTREMELY rare, and most surviving King Crabs actually belong to ComStar and are locked away until Tukayyid when ComStar rolled out the ClanBuster mechs (which also included the Black Knight, Wyvern, Hussar, and Champion). The ClanBuster mechs were nearly extinct from combat by the time they were retrofitted by ComStar and rolled out the door to fight the Clans.

IIC's were rather active during the Invasion actually. Many of them (such as HBK-IIC) were second-line units and didn't serve much front-line capacity (because they were inferior to the Omni-mechs like Timber Wolf and Mad Dog etc).

Kodiak is a front-line mech, and is also the totem mech of Clan Ghost Bear and probably one of the most iconic mechs of this franchise. It deserves to be here more than most (more than the Locust does IMO).

Woodsman definitely belongs to be here though. It is the FIRST Omnimech ever made, and is the inspiration for Timber Wolf, Naga, and Gargoyle. The Timber Wolf was not based on Marauder or Catapult or any combination thereof. It is basically just a replacement for the Woodsman which was also (according to lore) almost flawless when put into production with every problem having been tested and resolved before production began.

I honestly would love Woodsman, but honestly there are other IIC mechs I would love to have first (like Marauder IIC, and Warhammer IIC, and especially Rifleman IIC). Stone Rhino would also be an excellent one to have in game too (just because it would be awesome to have something with a weapon mount that high, and arms that low, and it be just that huge). It also has jumpjets, 18 tons of armor etc. It was only used in active duty by Smoke Jaguar though so its numbers are probably very limited. Stone Rhino is indeed based off of the concept of the Matar (which ironically was intended to fight against General Kerensky). Matar was unsuccessful and on the first test run its leg actuators failed and the design was abandoned soon after. It would actually be I believe the only 100 ton assault in game with JJ's other than Kodiak. Stone Rhino could honestly add quite a lot to the table. And honestly even the original art for this thing is sexy.

Well, there's 3 layers to the timberwolf of it's origin.
In reality in the hands of the designers. People wanted SOMETHING like the recently unseen mechs to be brought back somehow as extreme redesigns. So they made mechs based of them... Hellbringer is of the Warhammer for eg...
The Timberwolf in the non-BT universe known as reality was based of the Marauder and thrown with a pinch of catapult to give it more of a interesting conception and push it further away from a marauder.
Now- in Battletech we all know that the Timberwolf was intendeds to replace the woodsman (which in a way was made to replace the Corvix I think it was called or uses it nearly-omnipodal capabilities into a fully functional one) however being based on something doesn't mean that thing it replaces is what it was based of. This happens a lot in History.
I mean the replacement of biplanes were not another biplane but based of the weird unsuccessful monoplane designs of the era. It is highly likely that the in-battletech designers and engineers took inspiration from the highly successful marauder design to fix the errors that the woodsman has layed.

But that is now more of a theory or speculation.


Now on the stone rhino: hey, I got nothing wrong with this one and would love to have the iconic smoke jaguar/ goliath scorpions mech in game. I think it is pretty cool. I also think the Kraken (14 ballistic hardpoints, all high) would be funny and fantastic as well.
However I mentioned the woodsman as this was an omni and not a battlemech, and from memory it is like the last Omnimech we have up at the moment. I would think it'll be and interesting addition and it'll play as basically a pocket atlas. Will also give us an idea on how to better balance clan and IS

[Carl Vickers]

First true omni is the Coyotl, not the Woodsman

[Nightshade24]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 26 April 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

Probably not the best comparison as that was the gradual advancement of technology and actually several of the Monoplanes were based off of designs from the Biplanes. Just because they didn't have two wing sets doesn't mean they weren't based off of the same designs.

I do agree that FASA wanted to bring back a little Unseen, but Lore-wise the Clans had already upgraded the Marauder and tinkered with that as the Marauder IIC (which was still in rather large use including front line combat by the time the Timber Wolf came around and even during the invasion). I would be more likely to say it was made to succeed the Woodsman and based off of its design in slight ways (especially regarding its perfection of the omni-technology implementation and care taken to prototype it before production same as the Woodsman). They were also both made by Clan Wolf too.

I guess the subject of this would be up for much debate as it isn't ever said if it was really based off of any design so a lot of speculation. It could also have influence from other older Omni-mechs.

Me being a nerd I know a lot about stuff like world war two or technology. I wrote up an article about basically the german wunderweapons and how they tackle osme problems or replace planes but then i realised that anyone who isn't into that it will completely fly over there head so I dumbed it down a lot... and I do mean a lot....

[Nightshade24]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 26 April 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

I am a bit of a history nut as well but I focused more on actually the development of Jet airplanes during WWII and also on stealth technology (wrote a paper on it as well). I focused mostly on the Flying Wings and the German development of Jet airplanes during WWII (like the Horten HO 229 stealth prototype which IMO is the forerunner to the F-117 and other Stealth bombers).

well then. If only I knew this before deleting my wall of text...

[Black Lanner]

Marack Drock the Unicorn Wizard, on 26 April 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

We are more referencing Heavy mechs, and Woodsman is the first Heavy Omni-mech produced. Also Coyotl was also designed by Clan Sea Fox not just Coyote. Clan Coyote's moment in the spot light is shared there.

If that is the case, then it should have been stated so, instead it was presented as if the Woodsman was the first Omni. I was late coming into the topic and the misinformation was bugging me until Carl called it out. Also, the correct response is "Oops, my bad, good catch!"

Edited by Black Lanner, 20 September 2016 - 08:34 PM.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Nightshade24, on 26 April 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

Well, there's 3 layers to the timberwolf of it's origin.
In reality in the hands of the designers. People wanted SOMETHING like the recently unseen mechs to be brought back somehow as extreme redesigns. So they made mechs based of them... Hellbringer is of the Warhammer for eg...
The Timberwolf in the non-BT universe known as reality was based of the Marauder and thrown with a pinch of catapult to give it more of a interesting conception and push it further away from a marauder.

Care to cite your sources on any of that, because chronologically your explanation does not add up.

The Harmony Gold/Playmates lawsuit that lead to the Macros/Robotech designs becoming "unseen" did not happen until several years after the introduction of the Clans.