21 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

Alright, how are you guys going to handle the limitations of the Ares Conventions?

What about honor? Is there going to be any manner of honor tracking system? I have some ideas for you if you would like to hear them?

[CoffiNail]

It is 3049, Ares Convention was tossed out the window in like the second succession wars. There was a bit more 'humane' fighting later on in the third war but that is more due to the fact you could not keep obliterating industry, or you have no population to win.

[saber15]

CoffiNail, on 31 October 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

It is 3049, Ares Convention was tossed out the window in like the second succession wars. There was a bit more 'humane' fighting later on in the third war but that is more due to the fact you could not keep obliterating industry, or you have no population to win.

Er, you might be thinking of the Jihad. MWO takes place over a decade after the 4th Succession War, which wasn't nearly as bad as the previous wars.

kay wolf, on 31 October 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

Alright, how are you guys going to handle the limitations of the Ares Conventions?

What about honor? Is there going to be any manner of honor tracking system? I have some ideas for you if you would like to hear them?

Honor would only really be an issue if there was industry or LosTech involved in the game, but the game will likely be more like matchmaking with no underlying economy. Destroying a JumpShip is probably out of the question in the game's scope.

Edited by saber15, 31 October 2011 - 01:42 PM.

[Threat Doc]

I don't know, I think something like this is pretty important, a code of honor and the Ares Conventions. I'm odd like that, though. Would work for helping to keep the twitch gamers in check.

[THOR HAMMER]

Ares convention someone should have told the russians about that one in RoboJox lol

[THOR HAMMER]

Kay Wolf, on 31 October 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

Alright, how are you guys going to handle the limitations of the Ares Conventions?

What about honor? Is there going to be any manner of honor tracking system? I have some ideas for you if you would like to hear them?

I agree we are going to run into some awnry characters when playing this game you should be given the choice to fight amongst brothers of honor .

[Victor Morson]

Ares Conventions has not much to do with battlefield honor. It pretty much comes down to:

1: Don't blow up LosTech factories
2: Don't blow up JumpShips or their factories (see above)
3: Don't blow up stuff the planet needs to maintain it's population. In other words it's frowned on to go in and nuke the last working water purifier on some moon.
4: Don't use nukes or mass indirect orbital bombardments; this might be specific against civilian populations, like cities
5: Possibly something about bioweapons.

That's pretty much it. Ironically I think we will be able to violate #3, as I think orbital bombardments are a commander ability (not sure where I heard that, I think one of the Q&As?)

#1 has it's days numbered by the finding of the Star League Datacore, too. But yeah. Unless the game somehow incorporates the ability to destroy this stuff, this is a non-issue.

EDIT: Also outside of personal Bushido or something, there's no real honor systems in the BTU. Zellbringen was designed to preserve equipment not fight like nice guys: Exploiting it's rules isn't dishonorable, it's considered creative thinking; it's also damn near impossible to properly simulate in a real time environment and is totally moot outside of Clan vs Clan battles; no Clans are even in the game at start.

Long story short, unlike many people who take their banner in online games, the Clans are not written honor waving complainers; if they fight an enemy that isn't running Zell rules, they can break them right back; esp. after the first few months of the invasion. They also have zero problem with shooting people in the back, when they're down or blowing off any limb they can hit. They also have no real concept of a "fair fight," so if your Jenner gets into a fight with a Direwolf, goooooood luck. So yeah.

EDIT 2: The Star League era Ares Conventions had a few additional rules, but again, nothing that'll impact us much - like no fighting inside of cities unless absolutely necessary and accepting surrender 100% of the time.. rules that got chucked out of the window many times by the 4th Succession War. Bottom line is, though, is none of this will have any impact, at all, on people playing MWO outside of universe backdrop.

Edited by Victor Morson, 22 March 2012 - 07:19 PM.

[Johannes Falkner]

Well, some of these are easily controlled in game. Fine players c-bills for infrastructure damage. Players are also unlikely to get access to WMD.

Zellbrigen would be relatively easy to track as well. Just count the percent of damage dealt by a single player. You could then give a multiplier to whatever economic units the clans will use for one hundred percent kills.

[00dlez]

I can't see any of this being relevant in game

[Strum Wealh]

Kay Wolf, on 31 October 2011 - 01:18 PM, said:

Alright, how are you guys going to handle the limitations of the Ares Conventions?

What about honor? Is there going to be any manner of honor tracking system? I have some ideas for you if you would like to hear them?

The Ares Conventions were (canonically) formally renounced by the Star League in 2579.

Quote

In 2579, as part of Ian Cameron's declaration of war, the Star League unilaterally passed Addendum II, rescinding the Conventions. Despite protests and the strict adherence of the Free Worlds League to the Conventions during the conflict, they were never reinstated. The many conflicts the SLDF participated in - such as the Hidden Wars or the Amaris Civil War - were fought as total wars.

The First Succession War started in 2786 - the Ares Conventions had been officially rescinded for over two centuries at that point, though some still looked to them as guidelines for conducting "civilized warfare".

The chivalric spirit associated with MechWarriors today apparently (canonically) arose during the Third Succession War (2866-3025):

Quote

Two main components of this era were the evolution of a set of informal rules of engagement, similar to old Terran chivalric values, and a feudal system. The rules of engagement were similar to the Ares Conventions whereby 'Mech forces fought over industrial facilities, but were restricted in their attacks on those facilities and civilians. Especially important was a tradition of paying a ransom for safe passage after surrendering to a superior force. Also, JumpShips became strictly off-limits as a military target as it was quickly recognized that without JumpShips, nothing would be possible.

The feudal system evolved throughout the years because the capacity for central governance had evaporated. As a result, each Successor Lord controlled their house via a hierarchy of nobles who, in exchange for full authority of their worlds, pledged their fealty and their 'Mechs to their liege lord.

There are still agreements like the Bell Accord (FedSuns and CapCon agree not to use nukes against each other) that will likely be enforced by means of not giving the players the means to violate them.

However, "gentlemens' agreements" (like not shooting at a 'Mech attached to a coolant truck (assuming there are coolant trucks)... unless it shoots first) are, I suspect, things that will have to be self-enforced/regulated by the playerbase...

Edited by Strum Wealh, 23 March 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[Threat Doc]

That's some great research and posting, Strum Wealh, so thank you for that. It's the nod to the informal rules from the Third Succession War that gets me; some MechWarrior on-line merc units take these rules a whole lot more seriously than as informal. For lore purposes, it would be nice if everyone paid attention to these and acted around them, like our unit intends to.

[Slyck]

I think these behavioral aspects will be enforced through the loyalty point system.

[Rodney28021]

You can roleplay honor and Ares convention how every you want but i doubt others will. Maybe some missions later might have optionals that give brownie points to different moral styles like in SWTOR and STO. MWO i hear is completely PVP so you be dealing with people only.

[John Clavell]

Kay Wolf, on 31 October 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

I don't know, I think something like this is pretty important, a code of honor and the Ares Conventions. I'm odd like that, though. Would work for helping to keep the twitch gamers in check.

I appreciate that some teams wish to RP or play within certain confines of the Battletech lore. But why would we want a system that is seemingly trying to tie people down. "Keeping twitch gamers in check". What does that even mean? It sounds like you want to handy cap other teams or players who don't want to RP in game or place lore confinements on how they play. The areas convention mostly covers things like using biological weapons, nuclear weapons, and making sure only military targets were attacked. But it actually made open warfare more common. So in my mind the Areas Convention has little to do with MWO. Honour system? What is honour? Not legging someone? I don't care for that, I'm here to win, it's a PVP game. Not a Battletech RPG sourcebook. I respect teams who want that, but I don't want a restrictive system place on me based on the ideologies of individual teams who wish to play the game from a different perspective.

[Glory in the Highest]

John Clavell, on 01 June 2012 - 01:38 PM, said:

I appreciate that some teams wish to RP or play within certain confines of the Battletech lore. But why would we want a system that is seemingly trying to tie people down. "Keeping twitch gamers in check". What does that even mean? It sounds like you want to handy cap other teams or players who don't want to RP in game or place lore confinements on how they play. The areas convention mostly covers things like using biological weapons, nuclear weapons, and making sure only military targets were attacked. But it actually made open warfare more common. So in my mind the Areas Convention has little to do with MWO. Honour system? What is honour? Not legging someone? I don't care for that, I'm here to win, it's a PVP game. Not a Battletech RPG sourcebook. I respect teams who want that, but I don't want a restrictive system place on me based on the ideologies of individual teams who wish to play the game from a different perspective.

John's opinion wins.

In other news:
We were just discussing in SJR IRC that our #1 rule of honor is to not fart in the cockpit, especially if it is a Banshee.

Honor rules? Not in my video game.

Edited by Glory, 01 June 2012 - 01:41 PM.

[Threat Doc]

John, I've considered you a friend for a while, now, so let's just agree to disagree.

Glory, it's not your video game any more than it's mine or anyone else's.

[fionn]

Would rather not have "honor codes" in the game.

Edited by fionn, 01 June 2012 - 02:06 PM.

[PANZERBUNNY]

Rodney28021, on 01 June 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

You can roleplay honor and Ares convention how every you want but i doubt others will. Maybe some missions later might have optionals that give brownie points to different moral styles like in SWTOR and STO. MWO i hear is completely PVP so you be dealing with people only.

There should definately be incentive for clans to act under Zelbriggen.

Targets beneath them give drastically less....well....whatever you get for killing stuff.

You are out to fight worthy targets, but it isn't enforced. You just get less bling if you play clans mindlessly.

[Captain Nice HD]

I play Taurian. We never signed the Ares Conventions.

[Revage]

Thought I saw a post I agreed with, can't find it now..

Honor is likely an issue best handled by the player base, as it is a role-playing concept subjective to the company one is keeping. If there's a means implemented in the game to go team-vs-team in pre-made teams of allies, wherein both teams know their companions and have agreed to play by a code of honor (not completely rubbling a disarmed mech, what have you), then the rewards for obeying those predetermined "honor-based" rules of engagement would be best rewarded in-house, i.e. some administrator of the group whose teams conduct themselves honorably distributes rewards from the guild funds. In open-PvP, maybe other faction-mates would observe their fellows conducting themselves honorably, and nominate them for in-house rewards, but it should not be the duty of the coders to impose honor unilaterally. Mercenary factions, for instance, shouldn't have codes of honor forced on them.