32 replies to this topic

[Aegis Kleais]

I know, I know, it's sacrilege, but let me explain myself here.

We already know that ANYTHING that isn't cosmetic in the game can be attained without the need for real money. This is great. Mechs, weapons, equipment, all of it can either be bought with real money, or you can work in the game to earn in-game currency and get it at no financial cost to us.

But, at least to start out with, I suggest that users not be able to trade anything with one another (You can sell your stuff back at a game-determined market value or purchase things at game-set values, which incidentally might be cheaper for certain Mechs/Tech to certain player factions)

The reason why is that PGI ends up losing out during the crucial time in which they need to maximize profits and see whether MWO is a success and viable for continued support. Let's clear this up and say "BUYING" is in-game C-bills and PURCHASING is real-world money.

We know that you can PURCHASE convenience in this game. If you don't want to work towards something, you can purchase it outright, and that has value to some. So if you want to buy a Mech and someone wants to sell you that Mech, the seller gets C-Bills (no monetary value) and the buyer gets the Mech they want. But PGI gets nothing.

Instead, allowing the seller to just sell back to "the market" whenever they want gives them an appropriate amount of C-Bills, and the buyer can then goto the PGI store and purchase the Mech they want. This way, PGI makes profit and everyone gets what they want.

We could at least TRY such a system out for a while, at least until PGI might feel that introducing trading to the community would not "cut their heels" in doing so.

[CeeKay Boques]

They've been so vague on what can be bought or sold that I can't form an opinion. So, trading is a good idea as long as it isn't a bad one, imo.

[FinnMcKool]

we may start seeing stuff on E-Bay.

Your absolutely correct, as much as I want to be able to help others in my Corp.

Maybe there could be some mechanic so the Corp.s earnings could buy stuff for the Corp.s usage???

[Aegis Kleais]

Well, if you couldn't trade, what would you be selling on eBay?

[Vexgrave Lars]

Technoviking, on 04 April 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

They've been so vague on what can be bought or sold that I can't form an opinion. So, trading is a good idea as long as it isn't a bad one, imo.

Couldn't agree more.. We need more info.. Aegis Kleais raises some fine questions and provocative concerns, however.

[Victor Morson]

I suggest the reverse - that full trading is allowed, but it's "taxed" via comstar/in-game currency. I believe that Blizzard is effectively doing something similar to that with Diablo 3, where they are allowing items to be sold for real-world money (given the F2P nature, there will be a dollar to cbill conversion rate in the end) and it's a good idea.

A lot of this depends on if salvage will be in the game, and if parts destroyed in combat need to be replaced - leaving for very rare or unrepairable parts. Being able to trade, say, salvaged Clan parts would be a big part of the game and if there's a tax being taken on transactions, PGI doesn't have to lose at all.

[wwiiogre]

agree Aegis, PGI needs their money and I do not want to see Farmers. Period!

Chris

[Tannhauser Gate]

Well said, Aegis

No trading. That only opens the game up to farming and other abuses. As a pilot progress and he replaces his modules and components with better ones, being able to give away old components to lance-mates removes the work needed to advance. Selling/trading on a non-MWO market of some kind would be even worse. Both would undermine the quality of the challenge and cut directly into MWOs profit margin.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 04 April 2012 - 03:29 PM.

[Morashtak]

Need more details from the devs to make a decent response but...

If House and MerCorp units will be able to be formed up one positive aspect will be the ability to provide repair resources (c-bills, armor, weapons, etc). Those types of items should be acquired via in-game c-bill only.

Agree that if one can buy a variant, Mech or weapon, with real cash then it is tied to your account and can only be resold to the nearest, shady used Mech dealer.

[StaIker]

Quote

A lot of this depends on if salvage will be in the game, and if parts destroyed in combat need to be replaced - leaving for very rare or unrepairable parts. Being able to trade, say, salvaged Clan parts would be a big part of the game and if there's a tax being taken on transactions, PGI doesn't have to lose at all.

Salvaging would be an abomination. It means the best, most active players will amass a huge cache of high quality tech while the more casual and lower skilled players never get enough to make it worth their while. A tech gap would open up and make it even harder for the casual players to compete. Equipment and weapons should be available to everyone on an equal basis or to no one.

[palebear]

I concur with the OP.

I also wouldn't mind if Merc Corps just split the profits of salvage (if that's even in the game) automatically among their members, rather than stockpiling parts.

[FinnMcKool]

Aegis Kleais™, on 04 April 2012 - 02:11 PM, said:

Well, if you couldn't trade, what would you be selling on eBay?

You misunderstand me Im with you , I dont want to see stuff on E-Bay.
and if you can sell or trade in game it will find its way onto e-bay.

[Michael Rosario]

StaIker, on 04 April 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

Salvaging would be an abomination. It means the best, most active players will amass a huge cache of high quality tech while the more casual and lower skilled players never get enough to make it worth their while. A tech gap would open up and make it even harder for the casual players to compete. Equipment and weapons should be available to everyone on an equal basis or to no one.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say you're planning on jumping ship to clan as soon as you can. Because for those of us who are planning on staying IS, there is already going to be a huge tech gap when the clans invade, so... what? All of us should jump ship to the clans? Only the die-hard fans should stick with the shoddy, inferior IS-tech? Or are we going to just throw canon out the window and give everyone tons of clan tech as soon as the clans show up? Now I know that the devs have already said that everything's going to be available to everybody, but not at the same price... and judging by how well they're trying to stick to canon, good luck trying to buy clan tech in the IS without breaking the bank.

That being said, though I'm all for salvage, I do believe some limitations should be implemented. We already have a readily available one: the as-of-now confirmed battle modes, if I remember correctly, are going to be 16 on 16. Assuming that you're not going to cockpit every single mech out there, or even most of them, then you're going to have to divvy up salvage of a reduced amount between 16 people. And further, I believe it would not be too unreasonable to limit the amount of salvage you can get in any given real-world set of time.

Here's an idea. Why don't we have a system where you can request salvage from any given mission before the mission starts, but you can only do it 5-8 times a month? Then you have to divvy out whatever salvage is gained from that mission between whoever requested it. You get lucky and are the only one who asked for salvage that mission? Good for you, you just made a grand haul! All sixteen people asked for salvage? Be thankful for that medium laser and AMS you got.

Now, on to the original topic of this thread...

Personally, I have to respectfully disagree. I think that trading between squad members is what this game really needs. Here's a perfect example: me and a friend are both planning on playing, preferably in the same lance most of the time. I'm the spotter, a Jenner with a NARC beacon and/or TAG . He's the sniper, a Catapult. I'm playing a light mech that (hopefully) won't cost all that much to repair and refit. He's playing a heavy mech that will be carrying highly ammo-dependent weapons (LRM 15 and/or 20s, or Arrow IVs, if we can get them), and will (probably) cost a boatload to repair and refit. If I can't send him the money/part/salvage to keep him running, might as well retire myself, because he's not all that good of a shot and I'm pretty much useless without a backup.

Dunno if I've mentioned it before, but my personal opinion is that everything available in the cash shop that isn't an "upgrade" (read: c-bill or exp boost) or cosmetic be available in game. So yes, you can plunk down a few bucks for something and sell/trade it ingame, just don't expect any great reward out of it because it can also be bought through nothing but in-game work.

As to the complaints that we might get farmers/grinders... and I know I'm going to get some hate on this... I say have at it. I know most people hate them, but there are ways to turn this into a positive. Diablo 3, as I believe has been pointed out, is a good example... from what I've heard, you can sell stuff in an in-game auction house/store thing for real money, but a portion of that money goes to the owners of the game.

... I've lost my train of thought. This is what I get for writing stuff at 3 in the morning. I'll sleep on it and come back tomorrow to finish this post.

[StaIker]

Quote

Or are we going to just throw canon out the window and give everyone tons of clan tech as soon as the clans show up?

Good suggestion, I like it.

[Aegis Kleais]

FinnMcKool, on 04 April 2012 - 08:09 PM, said:

You misunderstand me Im with you , I dont want to see stuff on E-Bay.
and if you can sell or trade in game it will find its way onto e-bay.

Ah. Guess your post was too Kool for me to understand.

[Victor Morson]

Again, I think parts trading is fine. By imposing a "ComStar tax" PGI can make a profit off of trading that I think would be the best balance. Not all things NEED to be tradeable, of course, but it largely depends on how salvage is handled.

palebear, on 04 April 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

I concur with the OP.

I also wouldn't mind if Merc Corps just split the profits of salvage (if that's even in the game) automatically among their members, rather than stockpiling parts.

I entirely disagree with this. I think having a chance to salvage parts from fights is a huge deal, in particular if:

* T2 Tech is extremely expensive
* Clan Tech cannot be bought by the IS

This would make a great risk-reward system for fighting high-tier units. As long as there is a large chance for weapon destruction, this wouldn't hurt PGI's bottom line at all; they could also make money from selling "Salvage packs" in this case, which randomly salvages some gear from all techs.

i.e. if there's a 90% chance of weapon destruction, with salvage chance being rolled when an area containing the gun is destroyed (arm, torso, etc), obliterating two+ stars of Clan 'mechs would salvage maybe 3, 4 guns for the entire friendly team. It shouldn't break the economy but being able to trade those parts to who needs them (again, at a tax) is really important.

I can't possibly, possibly consider going up against T2 or Clan forces for the slim chance of picking up an ER Medium Laser as "farming." Farming implies just trashing mob after mob for a chance of parts, doing the same practiced instance. In this case, the people you're farming are probably going to have a damned good chance of farming you.

StaIker, on 04 April 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

Salvaging would be an abomination. It means the best, most active players will amass a huge cache of high quality tech while the more casual and lower skilled players never get enough to make it worth their while. A tech gap would open up and make it even harder for the casual players to compete. Equipment and weapons should be available to everyone on an equal basis or to no one.

If the best players are good enough to not only obtain the weapons but stand an equal chance of losing them when their 'mech takes damage and somehow manage to avoid it, I think these handful of elite pilots should have the advantage of owning some superior firepower.

I'm approaching this on the merit that if you, say, obtain a Gauss Rifle and stick it on your right arm and then your right arm gets blown off, you'd need to replace it - now if that Gauss Rifle is extremely expensive or irreplaceable (Clan tech) this pretty much insures nobody is going to take this lightly enough to go throwing it around all the time, since even the best players are going to take damage and every time they do, you get a chance of taking their stuff.

Long story short if really, really good players are consistently good enough to fight and win against, say, Clan forces and obtain a cache of weapons they're not going to be EVER taking them out to fight pubbies you're talking about. I know I sure as hell wouldn't risk one of my hard earned Clan ER PPCs fighting some random pubbies who might blow it off with a lucky shot - I'd save it for a unit where I'm going to need every chance I can get.

Finally, if a BV system is installed of any sort, your fears are unfounded as well. An Awesome sporting all Clan weapons is going to cost so much that it'd drive the overall team's firepower down to compensate. This simply wouldn't turn into "All good players have the best Clan gear, all bad players have no chance" situation unless they bloated the market and there was no chance to lose your weapons.

EDIT: Long story short my view on salvage:

• Salvaged weapons should only come off of destroyed areas before the 'mech went down; arms, side torsos, etc.
  
• Salvage should be very, very rare - about a 90% chance that a weapon should be destroyed, leaving only a handful of weapons from the wreckage of an entire company.
  
• Weapons should have to be replaced if destroyed on your own 'mech, leaving some costly to replace and others irreplaceable through purchase, prompting a serious risk towards fielding the best gear.
  
• Salvage should be randomly rolled to the entire team, not just the people who made the kills. If some pubbies tag along and some good salvage is obtained, they should have equal odds of getting their hands on it.

Edited by Victor Morson, 05 April 2012 - 05:51 AM.

[StaIker]

Quote

If the best players are good enough to not only obtain the weapons but stand an equal chance of losing them when their 'mech takes damage and somehow manage to avoid it, I think these handful of elite pilots should have the advantage of owning some superior firepower.

In an ideal world sure, superior skills would be rewarded like this. But put yourself in a Devs shoes and imagine telling 95% of the player base that they don't have any salvage because they suck, and the top 5% will continue to wail on them with superior weapons until they all quit the game. It's just not going to happen.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I agree with the OP - we are supposed to be MechWarriors not merchants. Also salvege, how to regulate it etc and the introduction of a player "economy" is open to abuse and would take up dev time better spent in making more mechs. It also doesn't fit in with not loosing your mech. If this game is a success, how do you deal with all that "salvage" floating around? If your salvage for a match was a number of MG's and SLs, what would you do with them, more important, who would want to buy them? I think we do better in just having C-bills and people buy what they want. Those who are not good enough to win all the time will probably end up paying $ for upgrades, mechs etc anyway.

[Kaemon]

I'd like to see salvage/trading implemented, in a carefully controlled post-launch manner.

Why? Because it allows a few options in regards to game play.

- Minimizing the 'I has bazillion bazillions', I hate seeing in-game currency at 100000000000000000000 and no way to spend it (immersion, I hardly got to know ye...), I also hate the WoT model of 'be poor, unless you spend real cash'. Make it expensive to operate and be in MerCo, mitigate that expense TO THE PLAYERS by allowing HoFa's to pay with an option to 'keep all salvage', then the MerCo leaders can help player's repair costs a bit (or even swap a gun or two). It also makes belonging to a HoFa or MerCo a bonus (it's a team game folks) and allows a bit of needed skill at running a MerCo (it should require talent to keep one's budget in the black). Plus the MerCo commanders can then decide 'should I take a contract that pays more, or allows more salvage repair to my players that need it?'

mmm...command level decisions....*drools*...

- Allows perma-death gameplay later on (always keep the doors open), if PGI wants a 'hard core' mode, you've already tweaked trading/salvage and understand it's impact, flip it on for the 'death' server, tweak and away you go.

- Salvage is awesome! You keep what you kill (allows progression and reward), plus seeing the rusted pink shell of Paul's Atlas on the floor in your mechlab as a reminder of the time you cored his punk *** is worth all the other issues it brings up.

- it allows options to game play - meta-game, personal rank (is Killer of Devs a House title?), mech customization, it can affect a lot of variables in game, and yes, by that same token it needs to be carefully thought out, and even more carefully implemented (which is why I advocate a top down HoFa - MerCo only for starters).

I think it's a feature-rich option that should make some appearance in game, even if you have to pay to acquire the option to do it.

[Victor Morson]

StaIker, on 05 April 2012 - 06:08 AM, said:

In an ideal world sure, superior skills would be rewarded like this. But put yourself in a Devs shoes and imagine telling 95% of the player base that they don't have any salvage because they suck, and the top 5% will continue to wail on them with superior weapons until they all quit the game. It's just not going to happen.

That's why I just said in the post, pretty clearly, that salvage should be rolled for the entire company - not the pilots who scored the kills. If you accompany an elite lance and you're not one yourself, you have just as much chance at collecting salvage as they do.

If you throw it immediately on your mech and get it blown off, well, that's just something you have to deal with. The devs can only take hand holding so far.

Nik Van Rhijn, on 05 April 2012 - 07:22 AM, said:

I agree with the OP - we are supposed to be MechWarriors not merchants. Also salvege, how to regulate it etc and the introduction of a player "economy" is open to abuse and would take up dev time better spent in making more mechs. It also doesn't fit in with not loosing your mech. If this game is a success, how do you deal with all that "salvage" floating around? If your salvage for a match was a number of MG's and SLs, what would you do with them, more important, who would want to buy them? I think we do better in just having C-bills and people buy what they want. Those who are not good enough to win all the time will probably end up paying $ for upgrades, mechs etc anyway.

I'm assuming you could sell back trash weapons for money, or even Clan tech you don't want. I'd also be in favor of an auction house for players, again, "ComStar" (PGI) taxed.

The point of giving gear, not money, as salvage is that unique, expensive and rare stuff can be held onto and fielded when the time is right. Having a chance of permanently losing anything you mount on your 'mech is a serious risk/reward system.

Also any pilots good enough to consistently win against the Clans so much they accumulate a stockpile of advanced weapons so vast they can afford to just break them out against pub matches all the time are going to kill the 95% with or without better guns.

Edited by Victor Morson, 05 April 2012 - 07:55 AM.