48 replies to this topic

[CocoaJin]

Kartr, on 30 October 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

A lot of whinging on the forums over the trial 'Mechs and how much they "suck" and turn off new players. Now I have to agree that the new player experience is quite lacking, in fact its pretty much non-existent. However the trial 'Mechs are not the problem, the pilots are.

I have my four founder 'Mechs which are pretty much collecting dust while I play trial 'Mechs. Why? Because trial 'Mechs make money without having to worry about repair costs, which means every match is money in the pocket whether I win or loose. Plus the 'Mechs themselves are fairly well balanced they just aren't as specialized as what you can make in the 'MechLab, and they are missing some of the upgrades that could give them a slight edge. Neither of those factors puts a pilot at a significant disadvantage when driving a trial 'Mech. I know because I pilot trial 'Mechs all the time and I do just fine against all types of 'Mechs.

The thing you have to realize when you look at stock 'Mechs is that they are generally designed to fight at multiple ranges. Most have some sort of long range weapon, LRMs being the most common, then they will have a medium range weapon often a large laser or an AC and they will have some sort of short range weapon, almost always medium lasers. Some 'Mechs are designed for certain roles like the Hunchback which sports all short range weapons, or the Jenner/Commando/Raven which are all light and shouldn't be thrust into heavy combat anyway.

The problem is that new pilots are not understanding the concept of different weapons for different ranges. So you'll have pilots, like the AWS-8T last night, who take their 'Mechs into situations they weren't designed for, like using an AWS-8T to brawl. So one lesson is to learn to use your weapons at the ranges they work best at. If you got LRMs keep the enemy at range and soften them up before you close to use your lasers. If you have SRMs, medium lasers or an AC/20 use terrain to get close and do your absolute best to stay out of the open. Fight using your 'Mechs strengths and avoid situations where its weaknesses will kill you.

The other thing that is getting new players killed is the tendency to run off by themselves, "guard the base" or not focus fire. In MWO the only way to be truly successful is if the team stays together and works as a team. Scouts up just a head lighting targets for the missile boats in the back, assaults drawing fire and dishing it out in front with heavies and mediums watching their backs and helping take down the main target. If you are a new player don't run off by yourself, pick someone and follow them, shoot their target and watch their back.

Guarding the base, worst thing you can do other than charge in alone. If you are sitting back guarding the base you are taking "a gun" out of the fight and leaving your team a 'Mech short. That means their going to take more damage and most likely die faster than the other guys. When that happens the enemy will role down on your lone self and crush you. Instead have a 'Mech with a decent turn of speed be in charge of running back to base and scaring out any scouts trying to cap. This could be a Dragon or a Cicada or one of the scout classes. Remember you don't have to kill the enemy in the base, you just have to get in the square yourself to stop him capping.

Last tip, watch the training video! This game has been in open beta one day with hundreds maybe even thousands of brand new players and yet the new player video only has 305 veiws!?! No wonder the new guys suck! You have to realize this game plays like nothing else out there and you need to be humble and realize that you aren't awesome in this game despite your record in others. Be humble, learn, adapt, play smart and you will succeed.

Do you PuG, pre-made or use TS?

Any mech works well in a coordinated group versus uncoordinated PuGs...doesnt mean thier good releativly. Team environment can trump builds.

[Kartr]

FenixStryk, on 30 October 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

I will spare myself the lengthy rebuttal by offering a lone example: a Light Mech with a top speed of 81kph is going nowhere fast. If you've deluded yourself into thinking otherwise, that is completely on you and your gold-vision.

The only person you're fooling is yourself, Kartr.

Psikez, on 30 October 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Ah yeah its totally fun to play an 81 kph raven that damn near melts down if you fire any of its weapons against a 140 kph jenner. It stotally not the mech its your piloting *scoff*

LordBraxton, on 30 October 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Ive done well in trial mechs of course, but to claim that they aren't garbage is just delusional.

The raven goes 80kph and the dragon can't even fire its 2 mediums and ac5 without overheating.

The awesome is ok but very short on ammo.

81kph is faster than any heavy or assault and faster than all but one heavy. The Raven makes a decent skirmisher with the speed and firepower to harass heavier enemy units and get back behind cover before they can really retaliate. Or they can chase enemies out of your base by using their speed to get back quickly. They also make decent scouts if the pilot doesn't just rush in trying to rely on speed. Use cover, pop out spot some guys, target one and duck back under cover. Move through cover to pop out in another spot to reaquire the enemy for your missile boats.

The speed on the Jenner is both its saving grace and its biggest weakness. It encourages pilots to rush around, relying on their speed to allow them to drive right through enemy formations. Its the ultimate Leroy Jenkins 'Mech, and Leroy Jenkins play style is the fastest way to get killed and the dumbest thing you can do. The Raven's lower speed teaches its pilot to be more cautious and to use cover and retreat when necessary.

This isn't Nascar, just because the Raven isn't as fast as the Jenner doesn't mean its worse, it just means it doesn't play the same way.

Apex Predat0r, on 30 October 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Not to hate on founders, because I don't, but that's a lot of BS to half read. The guy with four customizable 'mechs is using trial 'mechs? Yeah right. I bet you started using them. Only to get CBills to fit your founders 'mechs. You'd understand the frustration if you had to grind out match after match in them just to earn a mech. You know they are terrible awful builds and this is like a troll joke or something. It's gotta be that.

I play trials because I tend to like them better than the Founders 'Mechs. The 'Mechs I'm really waiting for aren't out yet and in the mean time I'm having a blast playing trial 'Mechs and kicking a s s with them.

The builds are far from awful, they're just not focused on a single range. Learn to use the LRMs at long range and not close until you've put some hurt on a guy. Use that large laser on the Raven to snipe at people before running up to a critically damaged guy and finishing it off with a close range burst of Medium laser fire and SRM6's. Learn to play to its strengths and not try and force it to play a way it wasn't designed to.

Lavrenti, on 30 October 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:

Honestly, the trial mechs are pretty bad. I've had the most success with the Awesome and the Centurion - pretend you're a fire-support mech and fire off the LRMs early, then close to engage with your lasers. But I strongly suspect any decently outfitted mech of the same class - perhaps even the same type - would wipe the floor with them, all other things being equal.

You're starting to get it, except stop pretending the Awesome is a support 'Mech. The Awesome IS a support 'Mech. Its not a frontline assault 'Mech that dukes it out in close quarters, its a 'Mech that hangs back in relative safety and lobs missiles in to support its allies. It should only close with the enemy at the end game when they're torn up and you still have pristine armor. Then you use your highly accurate and powerful large lasers to target their exposed sections and bring them down with a nearly constant barrage of laser fire. After all you can fire those LL pretty much all day without over heating.

[Sgt Kartr]

Bump for formatting

[Kartr]

Odins Fist, on 30 October 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

Nah, pretty much everyone that has a clue has agreed (since closed beta) that a Customizable mech that can Outrun, Outgun, take more damage, etc, etc, etc over a trial mech, pretty much has the advantage..
After running both, I can say without a doubt the trial mechs "TRY" to be good at everything, but you cannot be all things at all times, if you can find the true strengths of a Mechs capabilities, then customize it (which trials CANNOT do), then you have a FAR more than equal chance of turning a trial Mech into a heap of smoking newb..
.
Don't try to sell me on the old "Trial Mechs are just as good as customized mechs routine", nobody with a clue buys that one, and hasn't since this summer, and closed beta... They aren't, the numbers don't match up.. 2+2=4..
2+2 (does not) = popcorn

Kinilan, on 30 October 2012 - 04:07 PM, said:

Trials are bad. On paper, or rather TT they would work...sort of. But their weapon mix in most cases (not all) are poorly configured with no focus on any role.

In some cases they have too many weapons and not enough HS and most can't be sorted proper within effective weapon groups with ranges and types of weapons being spread out across torso and arm slots. Part of a good build is being able to group your weapons for example two lasers in the arms don't function the same as one in an arm and one in the torso

None of them have AMS which is a must in MWO especially when you're new and clueless and run up over a ridge.

Ammo allocation is slim for most trials.

Armour on some stocks is down right laughable.

Now combine those factors with no documentation on controls or weapon behavior/stats, a vast majority of much more experienced pilots from Closed Beta. The result is four punching bags.

Under armed under armoured and poorly configured for MWO.

I never said trial 'Mechs were better or even "just as good" all I'm saying is that they aren't at such a huge disadvantage that everyone seems to think they are.

Your problem is that you are focusing on one role when you say "They try to be good at everything." They aren't trying to be good at everything, they are trying to give you the ability to hit from all ranges with all sorts heat options. Some of the trial 'Mechs like the Awesome are designed to fulfill a single role, like ranged support. Most though are designed to be flexible, so use their flexibility. Don't try and take a Centurion up into a slugfest right away, hang back and use the LRMs to soften up the target and then go in and finish them off with lasers.

This is what I'm talking about when I say its the pilots fault not the 'Mechs. You are trying to put these 'Mechs into a specific role, a specific mission. Most don't do that, so adapt and use the entire range of the 'Mechs abilities rather than try and force it into a specific role its not designed for.

This isn't WoW! There are no healers, tanks, or DPSers, there is no raid dynamic or make up! Narrowly defined roles are not important or even good, because they open you up to attacks from ranges where you cannot reply effectively. A 'Mech that focuses on long range support with lots of LRMs and no medium to short range weapons will be helpless if someone gets in under 180m. A 'Mech with all small or even medium lasers won't be able to damage a 'Mech that can pound them with long range weapons such as LRMs, PPCs and Gauss rifles. Flexibility means that you can hurt the enemy at any range, learn to use it, open and close the distances so that you are fighting at an advantage. Use cover, stick with your team, fight smart, fight flexible, adapt and over come!

Its not a case of poor weapons configuration, its poor piloting. You have long range weapons often guided, you have medium range weapons and you have short range weapons. Use your ranges, open the distance to employ missiles or close the distance to gut them with lasers, fight at a range that benefits you the most. This is the beauty of most stock 'Mechs, you can't get inside their weapons and you can't get outside of them. They will hit you from all ranges, and that's how you should be piloting them.

As for weapons grouping, there is only one trial 'Mech right now that doesn't have like weapons grouped in the same area and that is the Dragon. The Dragon has one medium laser in the torso and one in the arm which does make it hard to effectively target them against fast moving targets. However you can use the speed of the Dragon to flank assaults or heavies and get them in a position where you can fire both dead ahead.

The other 'Mechs all have their weapons grouped in the same areas. Awesome has its large lasers in the arms, the Raven has its mediums in the same area and you shouldn't be grouping them with the large laser anyway. Cent has a large in its arm and two mediums in its torso, if you're linking all three together you're an *****. The only 'Mech that has a poor weapons placement for grouping is the Dragon and with its long range weapons you should only be engaging with the mediums as a last resort.

Ammo allocation is low, take your shots carefully and use your other weapons thoughtfully, think before you shoot.

AMS are hardly vital, I don't usually run them even when I was making customs in previous builds. Use the terrain, buildings block LRMs, hills block them, fight smart, fight from cover. Think, that's the biggest thing, think before you act, play cautious don't just rush in and think you're going to do amazing cause you aren't.

Alture White, on 30 October 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

Yeah this OP is complete bunk. Taking a new player that doesn't know anything about anything and forcing them to play with an incredibly heat ineffecient design is just asinine. Sure this game will always have a learning cliff, but taking new players and shoving them off of it is not the right way to go about it.

Heat has always been the most important factor in BattleTech. MechWarrior is like boxing, its about stamina, staying in the fight and out lasting your opponent. It is not about blasting away with all your weapons as fast as you can and try for the quick kill. That's what heat does it teaches players to think about their shots, "is this shot worth the heat" and it forces them to slow down. This isn't a fast paced run and gun game, its slower more thoughtful with a dozen different factors to balance. We're not playing CoD anymore where you can just grab a P90 and bunnyhop around the map spraying from the hip.

Bottom line, the designs are not cool running (except for the Awesome which is), but the inefficiency is the pilot firing too much and not taking his/her shots carefully. I duked it out with an Awesome -8T in the trial Centurion and I didn't over heat once because I kept turning and spreading his damage out, while I only took shots with my arm mounted LL unless I had a perfect CT shot with my mediums.

Dagger906, on 30 October 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

There are certain factory defaults that you will always fix no matter what. Half armor center torso is one of them. Even if you strip armor for glasscannon cata, center torso is the last thing to strip. Then there's the 80km/h Raven for scout. Assault has to have armor center torso, and scout has to be fast, there's no choice in the matter. Trial mechs are not just uncustomized, they're bad, there's no other way to put it.

Dagger906, on 30 October 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Ever wondered why your trial awsome gets popped after 2 hits down its broad center torso? It's because it has half armor there, of all places. Also, where do you think they put that ammo that goes all sparkly like fireworks? Then there's the split weapon ranges that ensure it hits like a pinprick at any range. Yeah, not so awsome.

And it's arguably the best among trial mechs, competitive with the 80km Raven...

If you're getting hit in the chest on the -8T you're doing it wrong. Its a support 'Mech, you should be back far enough that no one even sees you. The only time you should be close enough to be taking hits on your armor is at the endgame when you've used up all your missiles and their armor is torn to shreds. Then you close and you use your large lasers to pinpoint their weak spots and carve them up. Take the return fire on your arms, twist and turn to spread it across your body.

As for the damage, 'MechWarrior/BattleTech isn't about the huge knockout hits. This is boxing, its about taking the hits and out lasting the other guy. LRMs let you get in early hits when they have trouble replying while the Large Lasers are a very potent and accurate jab to quickly wear them down in mid to short ranges.

Again this isn't CoD where you pick the DEagle, or the Barret, or a shotgun and try and one shot people. This is about wearing them down bit by bit, and being smart enough and tough enough to survive to the end.

CocoaJin, on 30 October 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Do you PuG, pre-made or use TS?

Any mech works well in a coordinated group versus uncoordinated PuGs...doesnt mean thier good releativly. Team environment can trump builds.

Usually PUG, at most I'm in TS with three other guys, usually just me and my father-in-law though. That's part of my point though, new players, even if they don't have voice comms, need to find a team mate and stick with them and work together. Even if that's just a new guy in a Centurion following some other medium-heavy 'Mech and shooting what it shoots.

[Stone Wall]

in MechWarrior 3 online, we used the trial mechs as a game mode. in this game mode you could ONLY use trial mechs. we called them stock mechs. MW3 had an option that would only allow stock mechs in the game setup lobby. many of us got very good at using these mechs and certain configurations worked well in a team,

it was tons of fun.

practice will make you better.

Edited by Stone Wall, 31 October 2012 - 06:50 PM.

[Alilua]

The trial mechs get completely rocked by lrm boats. Too slow to outrun them, no ams and low armor makes them just get eaten up. The trial mechs just can't compete with any custom set up. The trial dragon is such an odd mech, lots of lrm ammo for a single lrm10 and not enough heat sinks to get good use of the two medium lasers.

[Vermaxx]

That should tell you something about the Dragon, that it is intended to be standing in a good support position somewhere, using its oodles of missiles and firing cannon shots when it can.

Lots of mechs come with medium lasers they can't fire frequently. Look at the standard Catapult. The medium laser was the go-to weapon in Battletech for when a mech needed some kind of backup shankweapon.

[Holem]

I have to give kudos to OP for actually playing with the trial mechs and then posting. I do agree it is the player's skill that matters, the 25% income and all the variables for a new player to get used to is not good for the game.

Besides proving a point, I'd rather use my founder's mech or purchased mech to get gxp for my pilot's skill so to each their own.

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

Psikez, on 30 October 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Ah yeah its totally fun to play an 81 kph raven that damn near melts down if you fire any of its weapons against a 140 kph jenner. It stotally not the mech its your piloting *scoff*

I have to say I've done surprisingly well i my 81ph raven... not great.. but ok. You just cant play it like its a 140kph jenner. I sneak around a bit, I take pot shots, peek over hills and around terrain. Get in a few pokes at the jennners circling each other. I make sure I have company and I almost never alpha strike.

[Lorcan Lladd]

Spoiler

Actually...
It seems as though 'Mech selection, personal skill, team coordination and even a little bit of luck all have much to do with regards to a team's performance during a match.

Let us not try to oversimplify the issue.

A batch of optimized Trial 'Mechs or even a customizable one would definitely improve a new player's experience of MWO, if only marginally.
As it is, the developers have already ensured the community that they're reconsidering the system; any further discussion of this specific topic is pointless.

Instead, perhaps we should encourage the swift implementation of in-client tutorials and voice protocol integration, or anything else, really, which might lead to level playing field.

[Pale Jackal]

Psikez, on 30 October 2012 - 04:57 PM, said:

Ah yeah its totally fun to play an 81 kph raven that damn near melts down if you fire any of its weapons against a 140 kph jenner. Its totally not the mech its your piloting *scoff*

Yeah, piloting my Jenner, I always feel bad when I am unloading into the ridiculously slow trial Ravens.

A light 'mech that goes the same speed as an XL300 Dragon? What a joke.

Trial 'mechs are awful. Spending 7 tons on an LRM15 and then only stocking 1 ton of ammo? That's a good design decision right there... in Tabletop, that would last you 12 rounds of battle, but in MWO it lasts you about a minute or two.

[Sirous]

In a way it is actually good that the Trial Mechs are not as heat efficient as some custom mechs. The rewards could be a touch better but... once someone is able to buy a mech of their own, if they haven't learned heat management by the time they get it, they never will, and no amount of customization will make them any better of a pilot.

I tend to rotate between Founders, and Trial mechs, mostly the Awesome, found that to actually be good. Decent amount of Damage, If played right can do quite well.

This is in no way saying that the Trial Mechs shouldn't be better, or at most hand starting players with either a mech or a certain amount of CBills, to possibly buy their own to start. Though new pilot in a custom mech is still a new pilot in a custom mech, same issues, though now they will be punished for it more.

[HAV0C]

Pale Jackal, on 31 October 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Yeah, piloting my Jenner, I always feel bad when I am unloading into the ridiculously slow trial Ravens.

A light 'mech that goes the same speed as an XL300 Dragon? What a joke.

Trial 'mechs are awful. Spending 7 tons on an LRM15 and then only stocking 1 ton of ammo? That's a good design decision right there... in Tabletop, that would last you 12 rounds of battle, but in MWO it lasts you about a minute or two.

Huh,.. 12 rounds of combat?

1 round of tabletop battletech = 10 seconds.

12 rounds of Battle, x 10 seconds each = 120 seconds.

Divide by 2 = 60 seconds.

60 seconds = 1 minute

So 120 seconds = 2 minutes

So two minutes of fire huh? Sounds about right.

Trials are stock chassis. You have to play them to their strengths and focus on using your abilities to make them shine. This is the hallmark of a good pilot. Taking a 'mech that's not optimized and bringing out it's full potential is an extremely rewarding feeling.

This is why I always loved playing in Stock leagues in MW3 and MW4. Good times to be had there.

Just my thoughts.

<S> See y'all dirtside.

-Colonel Andrew "Havoc" Davis
Death's Hand Brigade Mercenaries

[LogicSol]

They work, you just need to know how to use them.
AWS-8T, pug drop.

sorry for posting this in a few threads, but it's relevant.

[0zz]

Alilua, on 31 October 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

The trial mechs get completely rocked by lrm boats. Too slow to outrun them, no ams and low armor makes them just get eaten up. The trial mechs just can't compete with any custom set up. The trial dragon is such an odd mech, lots of lrm ammo for a single lrm10 and not enough heat sinks to get good use of the two medium lasers.

Before my first mech, I've been using the dragon to good effect. Mainly as a Anti-LRM hunter. The thing is, with 81kph and decent armour, I can approach them with ease as long as I use cover/sneak around the main battleground. I find the the AC/5 to be especially effective and most LRM boats turns immediately and run away when they are hit by this. On occasions, they will turn and try to shoot back. But the constant rain of AC/5 is a pain since it shakes mechs on impact. LRM ammo I find it to be just right since I'm almost always out by the end of the match. The trick is to lock onto a longrange target and harass it with the LRM whenever you've a chance. Target thru terrain, step out, fire, step back into cover and keep lock. The AC/5 generate very little heat in comparison to the other weapons, so I use that as my harassing weapon. I don't use the medium at all unless it's a really close dog fight and I can afford the heat or the AC/5 is out of commission. If given the choice, I'd throw one of the medium out and get more ammo or a HS. But I do agree, the trial dragon is a bit weird, but it force newbs to learn to place your shots and RUN (it has horrible default HS).

[Leetskeet]

Trial mechs suck. They don't have enough heatsinks for this game, they don't have enough ammo for this game, they have bad weapon loadouts for this game, they have bad armor placement for this game, and they're horrible new player mechs yet new players are locked into them.

What kind of joke is this?

[Tardstrong]

The problem with trial mechs is that the are jack of all trades and master of none. Weapons covering too many ranges to be effective in one aspect.
I tried to focus on the raven and after a few games I almost didn't suck. But it is a scout that can't scout in this game. I found it better to wait for other mechs to engage and I would join in as an ankle nibbler and not as a scout. I would go up and find a mech and wait to be seen and then run as fast as I could.
Maybe basing trial mechs on effective roles would be better than 1 light, medium, heavy and assault.
A scout; fast and armored to spot.
A skirmisher; fast and weapons heavy at the cost of armor.
The other could be a mix of brawler and long range mechs.

[Sean von Steinike]

Frosted, on 30 October 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Sorry but trial mech don't compare to custom mechs at all. They can be somewhat good but they can never compete against a skilled opponent with his custom mech.

You know who else cannot compete against a skilled opponent in a custom mech? A new pilot in a custom mech. End result is the same except the noob now has to pay repair and re-arm costs.

[Hades Trooper]

funny, last night we had a mate in our group of 4-6 players during the night use an trial awesome and he was dishing out quite nice damage and by the end of the night had enough cash to buy and equipped his cammando.

maybe he was just using team work, yes the trial mechs aren't as good as a custom mech, there not suppose to, but there not complete boat anchors either.

but at the same time we had a few brawlers and i was tagging in my jenner and a few missile boats, great fun was had by all and the best fun was playing v 8 man premade and stomping there butt when there was 4 of us and 4 randoms with us.

battle plans beat any mech, trial or custom, they all have almost max armour, but i will say, it would be nice to see a trial mech with ams.

Frosted, on 30 October 2012 - 03:07 PM, said:

Sorry but trial mech don't compare to custom mechs at all. They can be somewhat good but they can never compete against a skilled opponent with his custom mech.

Not ture, i see skilled players in trial mechs do quite good,

what your really saying is a custom mech can give you an edge for a not so legendary pilot. a legendary pilot will do great in any ride.

now i'm no legendary pilot but yes i can see how c-bills and experience give me an edge, but if i come across a great pilot in a trial mechs, it will still be a nice battle.

[VoidConductor]

> OP;
oh dear another founder with his fatlas or custom mech complaining how good trials mechs are :/

Trials are good, but not that good compared to custom mechs. AMS, optimized setup, boating etc.