589 replies to this topic

[Motionless]

Orzorn, on 05 April 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

But I do see the point about team size. In addition, having 12 people on comms might be...crazy. Still, having played Team Fortress 2 rather competitively for a while (it was fun fighting the developers from Bethesda! Most people can't say they've done that), I can say that even just a few people using voice chat on a team of 12 helps a ton.

And, yes, I'll come out and say it. Voice chat helps to give orders. I'll also say this: Pubs are generally directionless forces. They will do whatever comes to mind, but rarely does that actually help the team. They'll die for rather ridiculous reasons if you leave them to their own devices. Being able to talk to these people (at least I think their people. I could swear some of them are rocks or maybe lab monkeys) really helps keep everybody together working towards the same goal. Having played games like LoL and Dota for many years, I can safely say that, in a game full of pubs, if no one gets up and takes lead, you are seriously twice as likely to lose the game. Besides, if you don't like me giving orders. (I say "orders" lightly. My brother and I have trained ourselves to talk to people certain ways so we won't make them mad, and so that we sound helpful, but that we also give a good reason to listen to what we say. We also practice team moral raising. When a pub gets a kill, for instance, we always make sure to congratulate them on good play. Keeping people in good spirits seriously helps the team to play better.), put me on ignore or mute me.

So true, just go into a public TF2 match and start calling things out. You help your team immensely by just making quick shouts about where an enemy spy is, if an enemy medic's health is low, if they popped uber, where there sentry are at - if they're clumped together or spread, shouting out if the engy dies, you could do all of this without firing a shot and end up contributing to your team's play in a huge way.

And there so many subtle ways you can communicate thru voice man, it's totally true that you can inform people thru voice (with the intention of them taking certain actions) without sounding like you're barking orders, it's harder if you have to type because they can't hear your tone and you often have to shorten things to type it faster, which can sound more aggressive. (or because not everyone will read your longer messages.) And people can only get receive the beginning of your message in text once you've sent the entire thing, unlike speaking which is more or less instant - as you create the message they receive.

[Redburn]

Orzorn, on 05 April 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Okay. Now all we have to do is get random pubs from all around the world to have a specific third party program, bother to alt tab out of the game, open the program, and alt tab in and out of the game several times to type in your information, then find the channel.

I know this may be a little before your time, but you can create a TS.bat file (thats a dos batch file) that executes the connection, etc. and then bind that to any key. When you need it, hit the key, done. There's no need for all that alt-tabbing stuff. Do a little reading, spend a little (really little) effort beyond spoon feeding, and learn what you can do.... You'd be surprised how much you "can do" to find a solution to your problems.....

[Tannhauser Gate]

Paul,

I see the undeniable logic. However, in game VOIP has been done so well that 3^rd party apps look bland and lame.

My example: The game Space Marines has incredible sound and voice as part of their game’s total experience. Distance between players creates faint static and blips in the voice, battle can be heard like you are overhearing their frantic combat, there is distortion, electromagnetic interference, voices sound different from open room to closed helmet, etc. It conveys the heart pounding experience of others overlapping with your own creating incredible immersive depth. That would be convincingly better than any 3^rd party app.

Sound and voice have always conveyed mood and excitement better than visuals and it would be a loss to MWO if the voice facet wasn’t made part of the experience. If PGI decides not to for other reasons then I support that decision. But VOIP vs 3rd part app can be overcome if its done so well that it adds a lot to the whole game experience and it makes all the 3^rd party apps look bland and unexciting.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 05 April 2012 - 02:02 PM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Redburn, on 05 April 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

I know this may be a little before your time, but you can create a TS.bat file (thats a dos batch file) that executes the connection, etc. and then bind that to any key. When you need it, hit the key, done. There's no need for all that alt-tabbing stuff. Do a little reading, spend a little (really little) effort beyond spoon feeding, and learn what you can do.... You'd be surprised how much you "can do" to find a solution to your problems.....

Oh noes! Suggesting current generation gamers to read is a blueprint for disaster!

[Orzorn]

Redburn, on 05 April 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

I know this may be a little before your time, but you can create a TS.bat file (thats a dos batch file) that executes the connection, etc. and then bind that to any key. When you need it, hit the key, done. There's no need for all that alt-tabbing stuff. Do a little reading, spend a little (really little) effort beyond spoon feeding, and learn what you can do.... You'd be surprised how much you "can do" to find a solution to your problems.....

I know what a batch file is, friend. I'm a computer science major, so you don't have to tell me about computer functions. Thanks for the advice, though.

But how does any of that help a RANDOM PUBLIC PLAYER to connect to that server? It doesn't, that's what.

Edited by Orzorn, 05 April 2012 - 02:04 PM.

[Motionless]

Redburn, on 05 April 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

I know this may be a little before your time, but you can create a TS.bat file (thats a dos batch file) that executes the connection, etc. and then bind that to any key. When you need it, hit the key, done. There's no need for all that alt-tabbing stuff. Do a little reading, spend a little (really little) effort beyond spoon feeding, and learn what you can do.... You'd be surprised how much you "can do" to find a solution to your problems.....

So, make a batch file that connects to a server that you didn't receive the connection info for until just now? Does it pull the info from the clipboard?

[Paul Inouye]

LakeDaemon, on 05 April 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Paul, I see the undeniable logic.

See Bryan's first comment in this threat. I am just the stuffed scarecrow that is being lit on fire!

[CeeKay Boques]

LakeDaemon, on 05 April 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Paul,

I see the undeniable logic. However, in game VOIP has been done so well that 3^rd party apps look bland and lame.

My example: The game Space Marines has incredible sound and voice as part of their game’s total experience. Distance between players creates faint static and blips in the voice, battle can be heard like you are overhearing their frantic combat, there is distortion, electromagnetic interference, voices sound different from open room to closed helmet, etc. It conveys the heart pounding experience of others overlapping with your own creating incredible immersive depth. That would be convincingly better than any 3^rd party app.

This would be awesome, in a non competitive environment. However, all I see are things getting in the way of crisp clear communications with my Lance, and getting the job done. Again, sounds awesome, i wouldn't use it, for the same reason I probalby wouldn't use FFB if it affected my aim. I love realism, but

Win>Immersion

[12Strings]

i use ts3.
clans and guilds will effectively win matches due to teamwork and most likey have comms running.
others will solo and do their own thing to the frustration of all on their team
in game comms gives opportunity to meet new people and help the team win, if peeps work as a team and not lone wolf.
teamwork requires relationship.
comms with unknowns can be intimidating, frustrating
how often will teams be paired up? is it game by game or same team new map?
can the dev's not run a comms channel separate to the game for peeps to join. ts3 display on website where new players sign up?
the devs decision wil be their decision and complaining wont help either way
if players have used comms they will continue to do so
if players have not used comms they either will or will not
i use ts3

[Orzorn]

Motionless, on 05 April 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

So, make a batch file that connects to a server that you didn't receive the connection info for until just now? Does it pull the info from the clipboard?

I suppose you could have it potentially ask for the information, but that of course, would still require alt tabbing.

As for the clip board, some games have really bad interactions with the copy/paste functions. I've played too many games that didn't allow copy or paste, and many others that allowed paste, but not copy. Its a shame, really. Dota 2 allows copy, paste, and supports HTML, which is awesome.

[Awesome0n3]

Kay Wolf, on 05 April 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

...Merc Corps' (man, this term really bothers me... it's not a corporation, it's a unit)...

It's pronounced "core," not "corpse." It has nothing to do with a corporation and it doesn't sound anything like it either. Think Marine Corps.
I, for one, am glad the game won't have VOIP. I hate hearing people talk in games and if I have the option, I always mute it. I play by myself or with a couple friends. If I am playing with friends we are using Steam's voice program (superior to even Skype). If I am playing by myself, that's what I'm doing. I don't join random squads. I am a lone wolf.

[Redburn]

Motionless, on 05 April 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

So, make a batch file that connects to a server that you didn't receive the connection info for until just now? Does it pull the info from the clipboard?

GOOGLE is your friend..... Start with "Batch Language".

[Thorn Hallis]

LakeDaemon, on 05 April 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

My example: The game Space Marines has incredible sound and voice as part of their game’s total experience. Distance between players creates faint static and blips in the voice, battle can be heard like you are overhearing their frantic combat, there is distortion, electromagnetic interference, voices sound different from open room to closed helmet, etc. It conveys the heart pounding experience of others overlapping with your own creating incredible immersive depth. That would be convincingly better than any 3^rd party app.

The problem with the ingame VOIP of Space Marine just killed the ping of everyone with 2MBit internet lines and below.

[soulfire]

Gad to say DOTA and Team Fortress games are not comparable to mech game. MWO prob have double the resorces used than those 2d titles. I and friends play world of tanks we use ventrillo not tanks built in one. Same with wow guilds I was in to a one used vent. All the mechwarrior games we used couple different systems one was that microsoft combination hardware software one and another. Like the one person said most people that use voice are players that are in a group who not only use it in game but also use it in meetings, planning practice such. If this game is similar to tanks where there are two different arenas, lets call them, one where you do multiple random drops to grind out exp and unless you connect in a lance you will be with totally random players, generally those are fairly fast games and your just trying to score hits and kills to get extra points. People seldom care about stratigy in those its just grinding, typings just as easy.
Now lets say the second arena is the map one where various units are working as teams in houses, merc units so forth. There people are working as teams no randomness in it, no people farting or playing music load, your all there for fun of it. ALlot of these people are not going to except the in game dissadvantages. Personnely I would rather game uses every resource to greater game play.

[Orzorn]

Thorn Hallis, on 05 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

The problem with the ingame VOIP of Space Marine just killed the ping of everyone with 2MBit internet lines and below.

Indeed. The biggest issue that most VOIP has is their encoding scheme and bit rates. Some, like Crysis, are just abysmal. You can't understand anybody at all, and if you can the quality is still awful. I suppose in the case of Space Marin, they went overboard so their voice channel had too much information and was huge.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Technoviking, on 05 April 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

This would be awesome, in a non competitive environment. However, all I see are things getting in the way of crisp clear communications with my Lance, and getting the job done. Again, sounds awesome, i wouldn't use it, for the same reason I probalby wouldn't use FFB if it affected my aim. I love realism, but

Win>Immersion

Good point. Actually, in the Space Marines demo I saw, none of the sounds or effects interfered with team communication. It added effects and dimension relative to where and what the other person was doing. You didnt hear the guys Mom yelling at him to take the trash out. You heard his weapons, his environment, and his euipment.

You make the conflict between apps clear though. Win>Immersion. I would always choose to win over watching the visuals or listening to the birds chirp. So when would someone use the in game voip when there are 3rd party apps?

When the in voip effects dont interfere with your team communication and the intensity of game experience is convincingly better with voip and sound than without.

Edited by LakeDaemon, 05 April 2012 - 02:21 PM.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Thorn Hallis, on 05 April 2012 - 02:14 PM, said:

The problem with the ingame VOIP of Space Marine just killed the ping of everyone with 2MBit internet lines and below.

Ah really. Yeah that would be another challenge. Thanks for the feedback.

[Big Mek Jake]

I agree and disagree with Mr. Smiles on this one. I have always hated that one person in LoL that I can't talk to besides pinging and text. I think that a chat system in game would be great. Especially if it could be hacked, interuppted, ect..

The problem with this is, even if you can't afford TS or anything like that, Skype is free. And if I really wanted to win I would get everyone in my team on Skype to avoid being hacked or have my communications get disabled.

[Victor Morson]

Bryan Ekman, on 05 April 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

This is true now, since early adopters tend to be fans, and older. Our demographics actually skews evenly from 18-54, each segment representing about 20% and will skew younger as we go through beta and launch.

That aside, your OP is definitely valid and falls into a grey zone. The core users will most likely use their own solution, the casual users will most likely use none. However a tight knit small group as you have mentioned, is left out in the cold. I wish I had a solution in place that filled this middle ground. Know that it is on our radar.

That's great to hear. I can tell you that in any team based game like this, having a built in VOIP is really, really important. I understand the initial comment about implementing things like voice scramblers being cool but not feasible (as organized teams will use their own voice chat), but in general where anyone will be playing with the public, having built in voice chat is key.

I play a lot of Left 4 Dead for example, another game where communication can range from highly important to outright vital (realism mode). When I'm playing with my friends or an organized team, I'm on a separate voice server; but if we have even a single non-team'ed player in the game, we use the in-game VOIP pretty heavily.

In MWO's case, if my friends and I are the only ones on and we drop as a lance with 8 other people from all over the world, being able to talk to them - in particular to call targets - is extremely vital to success or failure. A team without voice chat is going to have a huge disadvantage even before the team aspect comes into play.

The long story short is that if players are going to enter into matches with people they don't know - even a group of friends - they're probably going to want to run two voice chat programs: TeamSpeak (to talk to their close allies) and the in-game VoIP (to talk to everyone else).

One last final note: Having a public VoIP in source games has been a great way to meet other people interested in said games. You can tell a lot about a person's attitude and personality by communicating with them in this was opposed to typing. As a lot of organized teams will want to recruit people and it's good for everyone if newcomers/casual players join organized groups (and thus dedicate to the game more) I can't stress enough how much built-in VoIP will help that. If there's an unaffiliated player out there that sounds like a good mutual fit in terms of attitude and stuff, this is a prime way to offer them an invite.

Anyway I'm glad it's on the radar. I think it's extremely important. The voice quality doesn't need to be stellar nor do the features need to be robust (Even a "Talk to team" vs "talk to lance" button would be an unneeded luxary) - just an assignable push to talk key and an option to mute it - but having something in place I'd say is really, really important.

soulfire, on 05 April 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

Gad to say DOTA and Team Fortress games are not comparable to mech game. MWO prob have double the resorces used than those 2d titles.

More complexity in the gaming system doesn't mean more resources used. Honestly TF2 is far, far likely to be harder on your bandwidth than MWO; it's tracking 32 players moving around at lightning pace spraying fire at a constant rate.

MWO, but contrast, is tracking 24 players that are moving much slower (Yes, faster in terms of KPH, but slower in terms of scale) and aren't turning on dimes - plus the weapons for the most part have long firing cycle periods. Long story short, mech combat is easier on the ping than any frantic large-scale FPS will ever be.

Orzorn, on 05 April 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

Indeed. The biggest issue that most VOIP has is their encoding scheme and bit rates. Some, like Crysis, are just abysmal. You can't understand anybody at all, and if you can the quality is still awful. I suppose in the case of Space Marin, they went overboard so their voice channel had too much information and was huge.

I will say the last version of the Crysis engine did have horrible VoIP, and if the new one is as bad, I can see why they're concerned about it. It really is just flat out terrible.

I'd still take it over nothing, but yeah, if there's any third party alternative it should be considered. Seriously, Roger Wilco on my 28.8 sounded better than that by a mile.

Edited by Victor Morson, 05 April 2012 - 02:34 PM.

[Tannhauser Gate]

Paul Inouye, on 05 April 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

See Bryan's first comment in this threat. I am just the stuffed scarecrow that is being lit on fire!

Thanks. I was naturally drawn to guy who was set aflame and flailing madly.