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[Debate] Is this game accessible for new F2P players?


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#1 Kutagh

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:05 AM

Okay, first off: Don't read the first paragraph and immediately post a QQ reply. I'm trying to seriously consider both sides of the story. So please read first the whole post before replying.

Now to the point: A lot of new players are complaining that the game is too hard, trial mechs aren't balanced and it takes a long time before finally having your own mech, never mind actually equiping it. Whereas the Closed Beta players and especially founders say that trial mechs are actually decent mechs and that you need the experience before buying your first mech.

Whether the game is too hard depends entirely on the player, but there are a couple things that can be done to improve the first experiences:
  • Currently a new player immediately drops into a PvP match and has to learn everything from scratch. A tutorial would immensely help them by allowing them to quietly learn how to control a mech.
  • New players don't know their mechs yet, nor do they know how to choose a good mech. So they think "I need a heavy mech so I can survive longer" and pick the Awesome trial mech. Then they don't do well with it and decide to try a heavy class mech for a bit more speed. Basically they're not sticking to a specific mech and learning how to use it. In such a tutorial, the advantages and disadvantages of every mech class can be discussed as well as giving such advice as playing 10 matches in a row with a mech before trying a different one.
  • Lack of accessible equipment (weapons and such) descriptions don't help either, they have to guess what the benefits and disadvantages are of weapons. So either they waste C-Bills on trying out weapons just to figure out how it works or they aren't trying out new weapons.
  • New players tend to fight experienced players due to the MatchMaking system. Of course experienced players know how to optimize their mechs for their own playstyle, while new players don't know how to, nor have the access to do so. One possible solution for this is a separate matchmaker for new players only, but whether this is a viable option is debatable. Players can also benefit from experienced players both showing how it is done® and giving advice to the new players (like turning your torso when not firing in order to spread damage, which increases your survivability).
  • [New] Perhaps we could introduce a buddy system, where a veteran can opt to help new players. The veteran is then grouped up with a couple new players, has the opportunity to tell them about the weapons, the trial mechs, how to play and then can launch a group game. Depending on the general attitude of new players, I for one would participate in this as a veteran, I just tried it with a buddy of mine and he enjoyed his first round.
Some people are saying that new players should start with like 4 million C-Bills. While it is fair to say that for a lot of people, customizing the mech is an important aspect of Mechwarrior the issue currently is that new players are lost in the customizability of the mechs because of a lack of knowledge. Forcing them to play a significant number of matches in a trial mech forces them to learn some important aspects such as heat management. But I do question whether it is a really good strategy, to force them to play that many matches with trial mechs just to grind enough money.
  • The advantage is that playing 10 matches with every trial mech currently in the rotation gives you a reasonable idea of how the various weight classes can work and whether you're more suited to a light but fast mech or a heavy slow but well-armored and well-armed mech.
  • It also gives you general mech piloting experience instead of crashing and burning regularly in a new owned mech, incurring the repair and rearm 'penalties'.
  • The disadvantage is that it is a bit of a grind, especially for non-founders closed beta players. They should already know how to pilot a mech and what good builds are. But closed beta players aren't important in this discussion, it is about new players. One of the major advertised points for MWO is the customization of mechs. Due to that grind and no customization in any way with trial mechs, it is just a carrot being dangled at the other side of the road.
  • The trial mechs are 'Canon' mech variants, based on the calculations of how heat, fire rate, accuracy works in TT or the lore. Since heat, fire rate and accuracy differs in MWO from TT, the actually intended design doesn't work the same way it was intended to. That is the main problem with the trial mechs. However, due to that it also is less tolerant of new players, due to generally running hotter than intended. This is both a blessing and a curse: The curse is the steeper learning curve for newer players but the blessing is that once they're used to it and can play full matches without overheating on Caustic Valley, they'll have less issues with running hot mechs generally which makes them more competitive with other players. Otherwise the players that learn to do so generally will outgun the players not learning so in a straight 1v1 fight.
Personally I think we should keep the trial mechs, but expand on the mechanics a bit. Every player can in the long run actually earn exactly one trial mech as an owned mech. For that, they need to play 10 matches with that trial mech, which unlocks the option to get a mortgage to buy that specific mech. That means that they have a debt of the cost of that mech and have to pay it off, during which time they can't buy another mech nor sell the mortgaged mech (they can still use all trial mechs!). As long as they have the debt, they need to pay 80% of their profits (after deducting the mandatory repair and rearm costs), meaning they get 20% of what they actually would have earned after paying the costs, which allows them to slowly customize the mech as well while not allowing them to quickly earn enough to afford massive changes. This system will automatically encourage new players to go for light to medium mechs first, as they would have a much lower average mortgage duration since they're cheaper as well as having lower costs (but they need to be informed of the average number of matches required to pay off their mortgage for that specific mech).


Why would we do such a system?
First off, by requiring 10 matches played, they need to get at least a bit of experience with that specific mech and an idea of how it should be played.
Secondly, after 10 matches they get access to customization. This access is severely limited by a low income though, meaning that they slowly evolve their mech to something worthwhile, so they won't have to suddenly learn various new weapons. However, while they can't as easily customize the weapons load out, they do earn the XP normally and so can get those efficiencies, which means that 5k GXP isn't as far away as having to play all the time with trial mechs first before finally earning XP (correct me if I'm wrong here, but trial mechs don't earn MXP and thus also no GXP, right?)
Thirdly, it forces them to focus on one mech first, slowly customizing it, so they slowly get to know how to customize it, what is important, how many heatsinks they need in comparison to their weapons load out, which means that once they've earned enough to buy their second mech, they have enough knowledge to actually understand how a chassis would work.
Fourthly, experienced players can opt to skip the whole process if they don't see any interesting trial mechs to own and instead grind a different mech. So for them nothing changes if they're not interested, otherwise they have quicker access to a trial mech.

Feel free to come with constructive comments and perhaps other suggestions..

Edited by Kutagh, 01 November 2012 - 06:43 AM.


#2 redplauge

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:15 AM

you know... those are some intresting points.

i do think newbs should start with a non trial mech. and have a toutorial to get info on how to play, vids arnt always the same as an ingame little deal.

#3 Kurayami

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:30 AM

dont you dare to use logic on me - no sir im not that stupid.

pretty good points here. i really hope they will implement at least tutorial mode and normal video manual accessible in game. mortgage also would be somehow better but then again after playing 20-30 battles on trials one have enough c-bills to buy first mech.

#4 Kutagh

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:31 AM

Never mind video's, they're only good if you can understand spoken English. As I'm deaf and not a native English speaker, that is kinda a problem for me... I'd much prefer a tutorial like in Mechwarrior 3 or 4, where you actually had to control a mech, fire at some targets and so on, with properly written instructions, not just a voice-over. And there's indeed a major difference between seeing someone doing it and actually doing it yourself, players need to gain awareness of their mech. For myself I find it pretty easy to navigate a 50kph mech while focusing on other tasks, like shooting players. If you have to learn that from scratch during a fight where you're being torn to shreds, that's indeed annoying...
Thanks for spotting that as well :)

#5 Redshift2k5

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:35 AM

New 'new player flow' programs are being added (teased by Bryan here http://mwomercs.com/...nd-trial-mechs/ ) this is how they will make trial mechs more attractive and alleviate new players being overwhelmed.

#6 Ghosth

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:35 AM

Every mech, every build has to be played to its strengths. This is a fact, its a foundation, accept it into your soul.

Second, Going toe to Toe with any mech and trading blows is not smart. Keep moving, keep ducking, torso twisting to spread the damage, then turn back and fire.

Third pick one mech and learn to play to its strengths. The Awesome actually isn't a bad mech. You have the option to stay back and launch LRM's until the ammo is gone. Then those 2 large lasers can be very effective. Learn to setup weapons groups and how to chain fire, learn to manage your heat by controlling what you shoot and when.

Fourth get on one of the TS servers and learn from the vets.

#7 Enigmos

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:44 AM

The video displaying the difference between the 'arms' reticule and the 'torso' crosshairs does not give you experience controlling either one. The video does not give the player the experience of controlling movement/direction as well as torso twist. The video does not give the new player an opportunity to experience setting weaponsets and chainfire, leading the target with ballistics, or timing fire to manage heat.

The video is fine for what it is, but it cannot replace an actual tutorial experience that will permit the player to focus on and practice the elements of mech piloting. These basic skills should be mastered before being thrown into a callous sink-or-swim 'opportunity' for trying to learn elementary tool control under concentrated fire conditions.

#8 Aym

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 04:48 AM

I'm not sure the new player experience is as bad as the forum posters tend to think... however, you raise some good points. I believe a recent Dev Post in the Command Chair forum indicated the new player experience was still being developed. While it is clearly less than optimal at the moment, it's the first day or two of open beta for a F2P game, I think if people need it easier and with more polish they shouldn't be such early adopters.

#9 Kazuar

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 05:25 AM

View PostKutagh, on 31 October 2012 - 04:05 AM, said:

*thought out OP*


Good points overall, imho. As you asked for a debate, I'd like to add that I think that a mortgage-based system is less than optimal, for a reason you touched on: It leaves out those that would like to choose a mech that is not a trial mech. Furthermore, trial mechs have rotated before, and presumably will keep rotating in the future (which can or can not fit with your idea).

Personally, I'd suggest a solution based on the 'achievments' that are presumably to be added: combining the first unlocking of an achievment with a (reasonable) c-bill bonus, you can add achievments designed specifically with trial mechs in mind: like 'light 101: complete either 3 wins in a row, or 15 matches in total, using a light mech'.
Balancing the amount of c-bills you would get for them, you encourage playing each of the weight classes for a bit, give an incentive to try and win (as opposed to suicide-grind them), provide a one-time bonus for obtaining your first mech (that, combined with your regular earnings, might suffice for a jenner but maybe not quite for the atlas), and provide an entry level reward/tangible early progression feeling, while giving you something to aim for the first few matches.

Actually, I think low-level achievments can generally serve as a helping hand for new players learning the game. E.g. "Keepin' your cool: complete 7 matches in a row without suffering an emergency shutdown".

(numbers are pulled out of thin air simply as example)

#10 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 05:30 AM

I think it could and should be much better. There is a recent post by the devs that seems to imply things will improve. We'll see:
http://mwomercs.com/...nd-trial-mechs/

#11 Kutagh

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:47 AM

View PostKazuar, on 31 October 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:


Good points overall, imho. As you asked for a debate, I'd like to add that I think that a mortgage-based system is less than optimal, for a reason you touched on: It leaves out those that would like to choose a mech that is not a trial mech. Furthermore, trial mechs have rotated before, and presumably will keep rotating in the future (which can or can not fit with your idea).


About the rotations: It shouldn't matter that the trial mechs have rotated once you have a mortgage. In fact it is better because it allows you to try out even more mechs. Once you get a mortgage, you own that particular mech and it won't change due to rotations. The only issue is that the 10 matches played (or whatever number of matches is required minimum, I wouldn't set it too high because customizability is a key feature of MWO) can get wiped. If you play 9 matches, stop for that day and the next day the trial mechs rotated, your progress is essentially wiped/blocked for that mech. But you need to play only a couple hours in a week to achieve those 10 matches.
I do agree that it doesn't add anything for those that don't want the trial mechs currently on offer... However it doesn't limit anything either. They can still use the trial mechs to earn money and buy a mech themselves or wait for a next rotation to see if it contains a mech/variant they want.

View PostKazuar, on 31 October 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Personally, I'd suggest a solution based on the 'achievments' that are presumably to be added: combining the first unlocking of an achievment with a (reasonable) c-bill bonus, you can add achievments designed specifically with trial mechs in mind: like 'light 101: complete either 3 wins in a row, or 15 matches in total, using a light mech'.
Balancing the amount of c-bills you would get for them, you encourage playing each of the weight classes for a bit, give an incentive to try and win (as opposed to suicide-grind them), provide a one-time bonus for obtaining your first mech (that, combined with your regular earnings, might suffice for a jenner but maybe not quite for the atlas), and provide an entry level reward/tangible early progression feeling, while giving you something to aim for the first few matches.

Actually, I think low-level achievments can generally serve as a helping hand for new players learning the game. E.g. "Keepin' your cool: complete 7 matches in a row without suffering an emergency shutdown".

(numbers are pulled out of thin air simply as example)


Achievements with monetary rewards can indeed be another way of encouraging players. However, if you make those achievements a core feature for new players, you should rebrand them as optional objectives with a main objective being buying your own mech and actually set it apart from actual achievements that aren't designed as part of the introduction of new players. This way you can actually make it quite explicit to them what they need to do in order to be able to buy their first mech, without confusing them by seeing a large list of achievements (or hiding the rewarding achievements in a big pile).


@People mentioning the dev post saying things will improve: I already know that they said it. But as long as they're not saying how it is going to be improved, it doesn't really add anything and this debate can provide them with a good view on what we consider as valid options.
Besides that, I'd like to thank you all for either reacting seriously to my post and actually being constructive or at least not posting any 'trash-talking' or 'whining' :wub: So far so good.

#12 cryonic

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:36 AM

View PostKurayami, on 31 October 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

dont you dare to use logic on me - no sir im not that stupid.

pretty good points here. i really hope they will implement at least tutorial mode and normal video manual accessible in game. mortgage also would be somehow better but then again after playing 20-30 battles on trials one have enough c-bills to buy first mech.


Id like to see you be able to afford an awesome after 20-30 games. More likely you can afford a commando.

In reality the current system is not supposed to make starting players feel comfortable - its supposed to make them want to shell out for MC to buy a mech with real cash.

#13 xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:41 AM

"Okay, first off: Don't read the first paragraph and immediately post a QQ reply. I'm trying to seriously consider both sides of the story. So please read first the whole post before replying."

I didn't even read more than that, although I don't think you were counting that as the first pareagraph. Anyway, you asked a question in your topic title, and I can answer it without having to read anything past it. The answer is: Yes. Make a new account(You clearly already have one), then download the client and install. Open Beta is F2P. You aren't required to pay them anything to access it. Make account, install, login, play.

What, is that not what you were asking? Well that's what I read. You do know what "accessible" means right?

#14 Orzorn

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:47 AM

View PostBluten, on 31 October 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

You do know what "accessible" means right?

I have a feeling that you do not, at least given the context of this thread.

Accessibility is more than "durp I can download this game and play it for free." Accessibility is about being able to understand a game within reasonable bounds. If a game throws you into it with little or no explanation, you can not expect that users will be able to effectively partake in that game.

From Merriam-Webster's Dictionary:

1
: providing access

2
a : capable of being reached <accessible by rail>; also : being within reach <fashions at accessible prices>
b : easy to communicate or deal with <accessible people>

3
: capable of being influenced : open <accessible to new ideas>

4
: capable of being used or seen : available <the collection is not currently accessible>
5
: capable of being understood or appreciated <the author's most accessible stories> <an accessible film>

MWO does very poorly at 2A and 5 for new players.

Edited by Orzorn, 31 October 2012 - 07:48 AM.


#15 Kutagh

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:54 AM

View PostBluten, on 31 October 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

"Okay, first off: Don't read the first paragraph and immediately post a QQ reply. I'm trying to seriously consider both sides of the story. So please read first the whole post before replying."

I didn't even read more than that, although I don't think you were counting that as the first pareagraph. Anyway, you asked a question in your topic title, and I can answer it without having to read anything past it. The answer is: Yes. Make a new account(You clearly already have one), then download the client and install. Open Beta is F2P. You aren't required to pay them anything to access it. Make account, install, login, play.

What, is that not what you were asking? Well that's what I read. You do know what "accessible" means right?

I know what accessible means and it is indeed ambiguous in this context. However, once you do read the actual opening post, you'll see that with accessibility I was talking about how easy it is for a new player to play the game on a reasonable level, in effect having fun, as well as having access to all features. Right now you need to play a fair number of matches to just even get to customization at all, never mind that there is a fairly steep learning curve without the appropriate options to gradually learn it as you're forced to play against other players while learning how to control your mech, never mind actually knowing which weapons are good, do how much damage and are meant for which ranges.

Thanks for your witty reply though.

@Cryonic: In essence MWO needs to do two things:
- Attracting a large enough playerbase so people keep playing and have fun, not just the paid players.
- Earn as much money as possible from the players, so the game can be maintained and further developed.

The latter is mostly in place already, the former not so. Part of the former is making the player feel a bit comfortable at least, that they have the feeling that they can get what they want. Customization is an important part of the game and if players feel it takes so long before they get to the customization at all, they'll start thinking "I'll come back another time".

#16 Ultrabeast

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:14 AM

I commend you for attempting to have a rational debate and you have a few good ideas. Unfortunately on this forum, for every good rational post there are 100 "crazy threads" that swallow it up. The rational posters try to reply to the "crazy threads" using logic, but their posts are swallowed up by the mass hysteria and more "crazy threads" pop up and exclude even more rational threads.

#17 Davion5150

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:21 AM

View PostRedshift2k5, on 31 October 2012 - 04:35 AM, said:

New 'new player flow' programs are being added (teased by Bryan here http://mwomercs.com/...nd-trial-mechs/ ) this is how they will make trial mechs more attractive and alleviate new players being overwhelmed.


Basically all he said was that some things are coming and they will be coming soon. Basically the same mantra thats been used over and over. I have not, and will not, recommend this game to anyone until major improvements are made to matchmaking and the new player experience. I'm not going to settle for mere changes. They have to be improvements.

#18 Kraven Kor

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:23 AM

I survived EVE Online's "New Player Experience" in 2004 or so.

The "New Player Experience" there was, essentially, to hand me a space-knife, and toss me into a den of space-lions. Hungry space-lions. Hungry, abused-in-early-childhood-and-taking-revenge-on-the-world space-lions.

This is not so bad. But then I'm all bitter and such.

So yeah, it needs work, we told them it needs work, and they are working on it :D

#19 Ultrabeast

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:27 AM

View PostKraven Kor, on 31 October 2012 - 08:23 AM, said:

I survived EVE Online's "New Player Experience" in 2004 or so.

The "New Player Experience" there was, essentially, to hand me a space-knife, and toss me into a den of space-lions. Hungry space-lions. Hungry, abused-in-early-childhood-and-taking-revenge-on-the-world space-lions.

This is not so bad. But then I'm all bitter and such.

So yeah, it needs work, we told them it needs work, and they are working on it :D


Yeah Eve was pretty hardcore. You had to be a m4sochist or psychopath to enjoy it. Why is m4sochist censored? It's a self defeating personality disorder.

Edited by Ultrabeast, 31 October 2012 - 08:35 AM.


#20 Kutagh

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 12:16 PM

@Ultrabeast: Luckily those 'crazies' aren't posting in this topic :D And as for EVE, that 'new player experience', I didn't have the time nor was I that interested to do so... Plus obviously the subscription cost and I didn't get very far into the beta :D





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