17 replies to this topic

[Yankee77]

After reading the command chair post on matchmaking, I must admit to be rather concerned about Phase two.

Specifically, I am concerned by the following info:

Min group size: 5 players
Max group size: 8 players
Class Matching: No
Uneven Teams: Yes

This is a pretty huge change, in my opinion. Large pre-mades will NOT be balanced against other pre-mades. This means we'll see the return of full atlas groups and the likes, which is an issue that had been resolved by class matching (at least partially).

This is a step backwards, as it will directly promote "cheese" teams that take away from the enjoyment of the game.

Furthermore, it will also make using certain mechs a liability. Brawler medium mechs, for example, will suffer if there is no weight class matching (why use a Cent if a Dragon does everything better).

I'm hoping this changes, but regardless some way to preserve balance should be implemented. For example, perhaps large pre-mades should have a tonnage limit.

Thank you.

[Krivvan]

This is a good thing. Class matching isn't required for balance. Full Atlas groups are simply not that good against a more balanced team. Especially so when it's a premade versus a premade.

To be honest, I never agreed with implementing class matching on any level but only removing it for premade versus premade games is a decent compromise.

Edited by Krivvan, 31 October 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[Yankee77]

Krivvan, on 31 October 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

This is a good thing. Class matching isn't required for balance. Full Atlas groups are simply not that good against a more balanced team. Especially so when it's a premade versus a premade.

To be honest, I never agreed with implementing class matching on any level but only removing it for premade versus premade games is a decent compromise.

Well, that was just an example... the point being that without class matching there's no reason for teams not to exploit cheese builds, which for me at least just isn't as enjoyable.

The real problem I see is that removing class matching makes certain mechs obsolete... or worse, it directly weakens your team. Best example is the Cent vs the Dragon. Dragon is by and large better at everything the Cent does, what makes the Cent "balanced" for now is class matching. Without that, picking a Centurion will gimp your team. This is only going to get worse as more mechs get added (not that class matching would always help... the Cataphract would likely make some Dragon/Cat builds obsolete, for example).

My best hope is that they are planning implement a TONNAGE LIMIT to large premades. This would make sense since they aren't going to do class matching AND will allow uneven teams. For example: if there's a 500 ton limit per drops you could decide to drop as 5 Atlai or 2 Atlai and 6 Centurions.

They wouldn't even need to balance tonnage: just put a ceiling to a large premade's tonnage, and each pre-made can decide their team lineup as they see fit (even going under tonnage if they feel like it). It won't stop cheese teams but it would prevent certain mechs from being obsolete (if you pick a cent instead of a dragon, you allow someone to go from a Dragon to a Cataphract, and so on).

Edited by Itkovian, 31 October 2012 - 05:35 AM.

[Sabrea]

I like that they are removing class balance for 2 reasons.

One, I don't want to be in a group with a weird group config (like all jenners or all atlas's and never find a match...

Two, This will mean we can actually test out things like an all atlas group vs a standard team. I can tell you right now the people I hang with would destroy a pure atlas group again and again and we are by no means on a high playing level

Honestly me and a lot of other players can't wait for us to stop pug-stomping and be able to actually test our tactics and see if they really work!

[Fooooo]

You may find that they will eventually have 2 "areas" or 8-group "brackets"

1 with no limits / class matching.

1 with tonnage limits (or some sort of BV done by the devs) / skill matching.


That said, having no class matching is the purest way for competition or full group matchups imo.

You have a strat / tactic in a premade, You know what the other teams could possibly bring, so you build your team around these.

You come up against an all atlas team ? Well you knew what could happenADAPT otherwise why did you even press launch in the first place ?

It gives a level to the game that cannot be had when you place artificial restrictions on mechs / tons / classes etc. (Add to that, if every team DID end up using only full atlas teams, then the devs KNOW there is a balance issue with the atlas or a specific setup it can bring....so they can then fix it.)

The only real unbalanced thing to be unrestricted would be if there was no player number limits on the matches. (eg : 1 team has so many members you could never hope to match them mech for mech, so end up in 10 vs 100 games all the time etc.)

Edited by Fooooo, 31 October 2012 - 06:03 AM.

[Yankee77]

Well, basically this means there's no reason to bring a lighter mech whose role replicates that of a heavier mech. This makes several chassis and builds in battletech pointless. MWO will already exhibit this with the Cent/Dragon, and many more examples will occur as more mechs area added.

Given this, the only advantage mediums or heavies would bring is the potential to be faster (if they remove engine restrictions, that is), which is a very specific advantage that goes counter to the Battletech "lore". For example, the Hunchback was always meant to be a "pocket brawler" mech, not a fast striker (though certainly such mediums exist, like the Cicada). If there is no balancing or tonnage limits, then there is no reason to pick a medium unless it is to exploit its speed. To do otherwise will be gimping your team.

Tonnage limits will actually justify the use of these mechs, in precisely the same way it is justified in Battletech itself: the tonnage/battle value savings along justify the use of "pocket brawlers", as they free up resources that can be used to include another mech in the team (or upgrade someone else to higher tonnage).

Beyond this, it also adds a logistical layer to drops that makes things more interesting than purely unrestricted drops.

[Zyllos]

You think LRMs are unbalanced now? An all Atlas team would get ROFLstomped by a couple of LRM boats.

Honestly, I always viewed LRMs as the little guys way of destroying slow mechs. You can stay out of their LoS and their mechs generally can not approach quick enough without lighting it up.

I, for one, can not wait until this gets added. I always liked the idea of having an unbalanced team vs. balanced teams. Now, I hope something really interesting happens and they allow more players vs. less players with higher tonnage. This is also something I really miss, uneven teams. But this might need to be added during Community Warfare.

[Belorion]

The reason they are doing it is so you will be able to find matches. Chances are slim there will be the exact team make up in another team. I never thought it was necessary anyway.

[Kraven Kor]

I actually like the idea of premades having to win with whatever they have vs. whatever the other team has. I don't like that as a permanent solution, but as a temporary solution, OK. Then as an option later on.

However, I think this is temporary, and the "ELO" matchmaking will later be combined with the premade queues so there is some "fairness" for us as well.

I really do hope we see various matchmaking types: One queue balanced by skill + weight (separate premade / pub if necessary), another balanced by just skill (separate for premade / pub if necessary / possible), another balanced by just weight, and then on with no balance at all - come as you are.

[Yankee77]

Zyllos, on 31 October 2012 - 06:14 AM, said:

I, for one, can not wait until this gets added. I always liked the idea of having an unbalanced team vs. balanced teams. Now, I hope something really interesting happens and they allow more players vs. less players with higher tonnage. This is also something I really miss, uneven teams. But this might need to be added during Community Warfare.

Well, having a tonnage limit does not mean the teams must be balanced. This is why it actually makes sense: it simply acts as a limit to justify using lighter tonnage mechs in various roles (instead of strictly as fast strikers, so there's a reason to use a 60 kph hunchback, for example).

But that limit would just be a ceiling, not a minimum requirement. Nothing would stop the teams from dropping below tonnage, or with just 5 players. It's not really a balancing mechanism, but more a limit to justify using lighter mechs in their traditional roles, and keeping them as viable choices.

As for LRMs vs Atlai... keep in mind that Atlai ALSO make absolutely devastating LRM boats.

[AllGamer]

8 atlas can't win against 8 cicada and/or jenners running at 140 Kph

they'll be doing circles around the atlases, and using your fellow atlases as shield hitting you with your team mates own missiles, while legging you in the process

LOL

[Yankee77]

Belorion, on 31 October 2012 - 06:19 AM, said:

The reason they are doing it is so you will be able to find matches. Chances are slim there will be the exact team make up in another team. I never thought it was necessary anyway.

Agreed, I'm pretty sure that's why as well.

And a tonnage limit would not prevent that at all. All it would do is place a max limit on large groups, and since all groups would adhere to this limit there wouldn't be any need for complex balancing. If a large pre-made wants to drop as 6 mediums, it's entirely their choice, and they know they might run into a team that maximizes their tonnage.

[Belorion]

all lights vs all assaults would be an interesting game.

[Sabrea]

Belorion, on 31 October 2012 - 06:30 AM, said:

all lights vs all assaults would be an interesting game.

It's hillarious honeslty was in a group of 8 commando's, We would 2 volley any mech that looked at us funny. This was back when they didn't have any restrictions on drop, no matching at all.

[Wispsy]

This is 100% what I wanted and asked for if they were going to do these changes makes me happy!

[CheeseThief]

Premade vs Premade will be the games main competitive mode I'm guessing, 8 players per team, using whatever weapons and tactics that they want in an attempt to be triumphant.

Trying to enforce restrictions on Premade vs Premade is only asking to water down the competitive experience for both sides because it limits the tactics and strategies that they are able to use. If a team wants to run a highly mobile light and medium line up, then they do so knowing full well that they could be matched up against a team that fully embraces the Steiner way of war. Stuff trying to balance the playing field, I want to know which team has the better tactics and the more versatile force make up.

[Krivvan]

The Centurion can be more effective than a Dragon though...

The Centurion has a greater survivability (not armour) compared to a Dragon. It has a slimmer profile (you can't hit the CT from the side) and has a shield arm that actually can be used to great effect.

But honestly, the single most amazing feature of the Centurion are the two laser hardpoints in the centre torso. Too many games I have survived in the Centurion through ridiculous scenarios with just my CT remaining and still killing enemy mechs. The Dragon, in comparison, is actually more vulnerable and easier to disable.

Quote

Well, basically this means there's no reason to bring a lighter mech whose role replicates that of a heavier mech.

No, there isn't. But the thing is, every mech in the game can fill a niche that another mech can't. You don't build a lighter mech to play the role of a heavier mech, but that lighter mech can do things that the heavier mech can't.



By personal experience, the best team compositions have been mostly balanced teams. At least 2 fast light mechs. At least 2 assault mechs. And then some varying composition of heavies and mediums.

Edited by Krivvan, 31 October 2012 - 07:07 AM.

[3rdworld]

I would prefer a drop weight limit on premades.

Might make the choice to bring a commando vs a jenner intriguing.