23 replies to this topic

[GioAvanti]

Double heat sinks are not supposed to be a customization option with major drawbacks like say endosteel or XL engines. They have a slight drawback in the inner sphere and no drawback in the clans. Single heat sinks are supposed to be completely eclipsed by them. In this game it adds a bit of battletech realism because if you were buying an older model mech it would likely have single heat sinks still and you'd have to pay to upgrade.

I'm hoping everyone gets this. Also I'm wondering if the whole "don't take away customization options by making something solidly better!" arguement is actually a cat's paw for people liking balistic weapons and not liking energy boats.

PS - assault energy boats are one way that some advanced mechs get away without an XL or Light Engine (such as the Hauptman).

[ReD3y3]

But they arent for some mechs.

My Atlas-RS has 4 Large Lasers. It is completely full of single heat sinks. In this case the crit slots are more important than tonnage, so single heat sinks are better.

It just depends on the mech and the fit.

[IceSerpent]

GioAvanti, on 31 October 2012 - 01:16 PM, said:

Double heat sinks are not supposed to be a customization option with major drawbacks like say endosteel or XL engines.

DHS always had the same drawback as ES structure or XL engine - they require more crits. This holds true to both Clan and IS versions.

[Ghosth]

Double heat sinks take up 3 critical spaces. That means no DHS in the legs, or CT. That right there is a limiting factor.

Not all builds on all mechs will benefit from DHS. Those that do, will be more effective than singles.

No one is making you spend the money to switch to Double heat sinks. If you do, best plan on using as few weapons as possible, preferably large energy weapons to get the most punch.

I'm currently running a founders Cat with 3 large lasers that works very well. Same build also worked well with 2 large lasers and 2 SRM 4/6's. But the third large laser lets me do more damage at range.

It has 11 DHS not counting the 10 in the engine, with an efficiency of 1.7

[LogicSol]

http://mwomercs.com/...heat-sinks-dhs/

[p00k]

ReD3y3, on 31 October 2012 - 01:19 PM, said:

My Atlas-RS has 4 Large Lasers. It is completely full of single heat sinks. In this case the crit slots are more important than tonnage, so single heat sinks are better.

spoken like someone who has no idea how to use DHS

atlas is 100tons, meaning 10tons internal (doubt you're using endosteel if crit space is important)
say you strip it down to 18tons armor, so 28
20 tons for your 4 LLas, so 48

ideally you have 52 tons left to play with; with SHS, filling up every crit, no AMS, you can theoretically pack 37SHS outside the engine, leaving 15 tons. this means dropping to a tiny engine, since you have more crits than tons essentially

-lets take a 300std to start with. 25tons, leaving you with 23 tons for SHS elsewhere (the +2 in engine count as tonnage too), so total 33.
-alternatively you can take a 250std for 18.5tons, which gets you to a total of ~40.
-or you can delve into the world of xl engines, but ultimately no matter how you build it you're stuck with ~45 SHS

with DHS, again, 10 tons internal, 18 armor, 20 LLas, so 48. now, say you take a 350std, 36.5tons +4 in engine hs = 40.5tons for 14DHS. leaving you 11.5tons. between both torsos and arms you can put another max 10DHS, meaning 24total DHS, giving you the equivalent of 48SHS (once they fix the bug next tuesday), with 1.5tons to spare

so you can get comparable heat dissipation, move much faster, and have tonnage to spare with DHS running just 4 LL

Edited by p00k, 31 October 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[NovaFury]

IceSerpent, on 31 October 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

DHS always had the same drawback as ES structure or XL engine - they require more crits. This holds true to both Clan and IS versions.

Clans don't have SHS, though, and their DHS only take 2 crits.

So, not really. Even with IS mechs, considering the engine mounts 10 HS without taking criticals, upgrading to doubles is solidly superior in almost every way.

[Chemie]

p00k, on 31 October 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

spoken like someone who has no idea how to use DHS

atlas is 100tons, meaning 10tons internal (doubt you're using endosteel if crit space is important)
say you strip it down to 18tons armor, so 28
20 tons for your 4 LLas, so 48

ideally you have 52 tons left to play with; with SHS, filling up every crit, no AMS, you can theoretically pack 37SHS outside the engine, leaving 15 tons. this means dropping to a tiny engine, since you have more crits than tons essentially

-lets take a 300std to start with. 25tons, leaving you with 23 tons for SHS elsewhere (the +2 in engine count as tonnage too), so total 33.
-alternatively you can take a 250std for 18.5tons, which gets you to a total of ~40.
-or you can delve into the world of xl engines, but ultimately no matter how you build it you're stuck with ~45 SHS

with DHS, again, 10 tons internal, 18 armor, 20 LLas, so 48. now, say you take a 350std, 36.5tons +4 in engine hs = 40.5tons for 14DHS. leaving you 11.5tons. between both torsos and arms you can put another max 10DHS, meaning 24total DHS, giving you the equivalent of 48SHS (once they fix the bug next tuesday), with 1.5tons to spare

so you can get comparable heat dissipation, move much faster, and have tonnage to spare with DHS running just 4 LL

Which is why if they implement full DHS in engines (i.e. you get free 20 SHS equiv), you will see even less ballistics and mostly laserboats from everyone. 48 SHS is crazy HS heat system

[IceSerpent]

NovaFury, on 31 October 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Clans don't have SHS, though, and their DHS only take 2 crits.

So, not really. Even with IS mechs, considering the engine mounts 10 HS without taking criticals, upgrading to doubles is solidly superior in almost every way.

1. Clan DHS takes 2 crits vs. SHS taking 1 crit and IS DHS takes 3 crits vs. SHS taking 1 crit - the drawback is exactly the same as ES vs. std. structure or XL vs. std. engine, you are trading criticals for weight.

2. DHS is indeed superior for a lot of loadouts, except for those that don't have crits to spare or ones that are heat-neutral with just engine SHS (for example a 60t mech with twin gauss rifles is highly unlikely to benefit from DHS upgrade).

[p00k]

Chemie, on 31 October 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

Which is why if they implement full DHS in engines (i.e. you get free 20 SHS equiv), you will see even less ballistics and mostly laserboats from everyone. 48 SHS is crazy HS heat system

ballistics still have their advantages, namely damage front loading. at close range sure it may be easy to keep 4LL on a cockpit of a slow moving mech (or whatever component you're hunting). but at range it'll be much harder. meanwhile ballistics that front load their damage guarantee all damage to a single spot. much more powerful at range, and much more powerful against small fast mechs provided the lag gods are away

ppc's on the other hand have the tonnage profile and ammo freedom of energy weapons, with the front loading of ballistics, and stand to benefit the most from the bug fix imo

[Lin Shai]

DHS have made Jenners Flying Speedballs of Death™. 2xMPLAS + 2xSSRM2? Yes please.

[Vermaxx]

As has been said, Clan sinks have no downside.

They take the space of two sinks (which you would have taken anyway) and weigh one. If you don't want to take those last two crit slots, don't put in that last sink.

The only downside is that when they go boom from a crit or lost component, you lose two sinks instead of one.

Ha, see what I did there?

Edited by Vermaxx, 31 October 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[Zyllos]

I am going to be doing some calculations tonight on SHS/DHS and STD/XL engines and their respective weights.

I am mainly doing this to determine that for each engine rating, what is the maximum dissipated heat available for each engine and heatsink type to see if there is EVER a reason to take SHS. I supect that this will only be the case when a lot of tonnages and critical slots are needed, thus a smaller engine in a larger mech is used.

I am also doing this to make sure the engine weights are correct. I think they are still off, but only by a bit. And do not have the game currently open in front of me so I am using Ohmwrecker's values, which I think are off.

Edited by Zyllos, 31 October 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[Vermaxx]

The engine values are off yes, because they include:

a cockpit

the correct weight of gyro

a plus or minus for the fact that they have 'too many' or 'too few' heatsinks.

In the end, they add up to the correct everything after you add in the heatsinks you are short.

[BD Magnum]

I assume ballistics will eventually start getting new ammo types, including high-capacity ammo. but until then, keep in mind that most ballistic weapons still generate significant heat. Since the balancing mechanism so far has been to increase their rate of fire (an excellent choice, IMO), most projectiles and missiles are not in a different ballpark than energy weapons heat-wise.

Most mechs will be better off with DHS than singles, as it is in Battletech. But there are many mechs for which the difference is so small that the maintenance cost should be a serious consideration.

[DoRkZiLLaa]

Mathematically, with the way heat functions now, if i remember correctly DHS are statistically better the lighter the mech you use them on. Heavier mechs (assaults, specifically) have a high enough max tonnage, coupled with bigger chassis (big hitboxes) that can make it possible to cram in enough SHS to NEARLY match DHS in terms of heat dissipation.

I used to have the exact math, but I can't find my spreadsheet. Sorry.

[wanderer]

NovaFury, on 31 October 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Clans don't have SHS, though, and their DHS only take 2 crits.

So, not really. Even with IS mechs, considering the engine mounts 10 HS without taking criticals, upgrading to doubles is solidly superior in almost every way.

Incorrect. Clans just very, very rarely use them in 'Mechs- all Clan vehicles use SHS, and a rare few like the Bear Cub are built with SHS equipped. They are the exception to the rule, though.

[ReD3y3]

p00k, on 31 October 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

spoken like someone who has no idea how to use DHS

atlas is 100tons, meaning 10tons internal (doubt you're using endosteel if crit space is important)
say you strip it down to 18tons armor, so 28
20 tons for your 4 LLas, so 48

ideally you have 52 tons left to play with; with SHS, filling up every crit, no AMS, you can theoretically pack 37SHS outside the engine, leaving 15 tons. this means dropping to a tiny engine, since you have more crits than tons essentially

-lets take a 300std to start with. 25tons, leaving you with 23 tons for SHS elsewhere (the +2 in engine count as tonnage too), so total 33.
-alternatively you can take a 250std for 18.5tons, which gets you to a total of ~40.
-or you can delve into the world of xl engines, but ultimately no matter how you build it you're stuck with ~45 SHS

with DHS, again, 10 tons internal, 18 armor, 20 LLas, so 48. now, say you take a 350std, 36.5tons +4 in engine hs = 40.5tons for 14DHS. leaving you 11.5tons. between both torsos and arms you can put another max 10DHS, meaning 24total DHS, giving you the equivalent of 48SHS (once they fix the bug next tuesday), with 1.5tons to spare

so you can get comparable heat dissipation, move much faster, and have tonnage to spare with DHS running just 4 LL

Before you say I have no idea what I am talking about. Maybe you should consider your crit spaces for DHS in an atlas are limited to its 3 torso and Arms.

You are missing 5 crit spaces right off the bat that can not use DHS.

Not to mention more than likely your torsos and arms will have an extra crit space left that CAN NOT use a DHS.

Your theory is correct if you DO NOT factor in the fact that EVERY crit space CAN NOT use a DHS.



Before you use strong terminology like your openeing statement, please make sure you know WTF you are talking about.


THX

[Angel of Annihilation]

Lin Shai, on 31 October 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

DHS have made Jenners Flying Speedballs of Death™. 2xMPLAS + 2xSSRM2? Yes please.

This is powerful how?

4 Small Lasers do the same damage per alpha, weight 2 tons less, cycle at 2.25 second vs 3.0 seconds and will produce 2 less heat.

So you get more DPS out of 4 small lasers and have 2 tons extra for armor, heat sinks, bigger engine, etc. and are alot cooler at the cost of reduced range.

Doesn't really sound like you builds all that much better and with the cooler weapons, you just don't need as many heat sinks anyway.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 31 October 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[Daurock]

ReD3y3, on 31 October 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

Before you say I have no idea what I am talking about. Maybe you should consider your crit spaces for DHS in an atlas are limited to its 3 torso and Arms.
You are missing 5 crit spaces right off the bat that can not use DHS.
Not to mention more than likely your torsos and arms will have an extra crit space left that CAN NOT use a DHS.
Your theory is correct if you DO NOT factor in the fact that EVERY crit space CAN NOT use a DHS.
Before you use strong terminology like your openeing statement, please make sure you know WTF you are talking about.
THX

He's not wrong though. There really aren't any builds out there that are not better using double heatsinks. Take that mech with the 4 large lasers. At a minimum, you'll still be able to stuff in 8 Doubles. (Without AMS, you're likely to fit 10 in there)) Couple that with a 350 Standard engine (that holds 14 heatsinks) and you're at an effective dissipation of 44 sinks as a minimum. [2*(8+14)] Going with 10 doubles outside the engine brings your total effective sinks up to 48. Yes, there is a limatation to just how many double heatsinks one can place on a mech. It so happens that even for the 100 tonners out there, that cap is about the same as the one you get when you're using singles, and get there by increasing your engine size instead of shrinking it. (Which has the handy side effect of making you move faster.)

I've run a lot of these mechs through the spreadsheets, and the closest thing any mech comes to being better off with SHS is the Pulse laser, 40 HS equipped Awesome running with an XL290. The only major benefit he sees is the extra durability afforded by a STD. 290. (it keeps the same number of effective sinks, and has several tons left over for armor, and perhaps an AMS system.

The bottom line is that you can't always use DHS to add firepower. You CAN, however, always use DHS to improve your mech. It might be the same firepower, but it will be faster and/or more durable than the SHS mech.

Edited by Daurock, 31 October 2012 - 08:28 PM.