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PPC's and Ammo


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#1 MrKnox

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:46 AM

Can anyone sway me to use PPC's over AC's and Gauss in organised premade vs premade?

I know the game is still beta and being tweaked, but my belief is that ammo based weapons, at least in MWO in its current form (fast games with a TON of focus fire) vastly out perform the PPC.

I've been running PPC's for a long time in the Awesome, and its draw backs of low damage at close range, long travel time to target and high heat make it a very hard weapon to get high DPS with.

Gauss as a direct comparison can be used at any range, is almost instant target hit, and seems to do a ton (creative licence taken here) more damage than my PPCs.

The draw back is obvious, lack of ammo, but how many games where focus fire is used well do you find yourself out of ammo with more than 1 or 2 enemy mechs still on the field?

The purpose of this thead is to a) let me vent about my beloved PPC's sucking, and :rolleyes: to discuss how big the gulf really is.. or is it? Should I keep using PPC's?

#2 Twosteps

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:48 AM

You could also just use a large laser or ER large laser instead of the PPC and not loose much range.

#3 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:50 AM

I don't think you should keep using it. But your options are limited if you like the Awesome chassis.
Large Lasers can be made to work reasonably IMO. Not superb, but reasonable.

Weapon Efficiency Charts below...

TET Charts
Methodology
Spoiler


The Charts
Spoiler

At least with single heat sinks, you really shouldn't stay with the PPCs. With DHS, you may be able to make them work... Large Laser would still be better, even if the range is lower...

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 01 November 2012 - 04:56 AM.


#4 CMDR Sunset Shimmer

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:52 AM

PPC's are strong,but they're not the "Strongest" thing out there.

You have to weigh the heat potential against the damage potential. And as it is Gauss easily outdoes PPC's. But that's the intention of Gauss.

The plus is, in an extended fight [which we're not seeing here.] PPC's will be able to still fire, as there are no "ammo bins" to run dry. However with short ranges, bad netcode, and a miriad of other issues including heat. PPC are just... grossly outshined by weapons that, frankly, shouldn't be outshining it.

At this point in the game, PPC's are best used to soften up enemy target's at "mid" range to allow your brawlers to finish them off... you're going to want to use 1 or 2 PPC's at most, 3-4 is simply wasting space you could allocate to backup weaponry and heatsinks.

#5 Nik Van Rhijn

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 04:54 AM

With the hit detection problems ACs are not a viable alternative, (not that you can fit them on an AWS). LLs or ER LLs are useable but if you can afford the weight and have a ballistic slot the Gauss wins hands down every time.

#6 Cole Allard

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:07 AM

The PPC is a special baby...comparing it with other weapons is just wrong.

Well...ok...stop being romantic Cole!

I put 1 PPC in my centurion yesterday...the damage is 10 points...and thats ok, its canon and I wont discuss it. BUT, the reaction you get on the battlefield is...awesome. Even Atlas'es start looking around where the shot came from, ok...thats not so good you might think when you get everyone's attention...but...it gives your heavys the little time they need to do their thing.

I think, if a medium or even smal mech suddenly brandishes a PPC, the surprise alone makes up for a lot. My personal tipp would be...get one of those trial mechs as your own, the looks stays the same as a trial mech and everybody looks at you as if your new around...put weapons into it nobody expects...and stun everyone around you. Jenners that think your a trial? Make em eat SSRM...that assault getting over the hill that is not targeting you but that awesome thats a real trial mech, might just giving you the time to burn your name into what ever comes around.

#7 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:08 AM

I forget if it was Brian or Garth, but I do remember one of them directly stating that PPCs are getting a buff in the near future (finally!) because they are not terribly useful.

MOre than the points you bring out, it to me seems they damage inconsistently. I have at times 3xPPC'd someones to death in a single volley. Other times, with hit after hit being registered I hit dozens of volleys, to seeming minimal damage.

A couple points brought out is that the slow ppc bolt seems to be "back loaded" for damage, with the rear of the bolt being the "hammer", hence often not hitting the original locale on a moving target. (Not 100% sure on this, was brought up by several other gamers, and from my limited ability to observe, at least does APPEAR to be so).

Also, the "footprint" of the PPC seems much wider, and less focused that for instance, a ballistic, hence the damage that would be all one local hit box with a gauss or AC round gets split between 2-3 hitboxes conceivably with the PPC. Again, no formal post on this, but this one is something I have observed time and again, and it certainly explains the utter flukish behavior of PPC damage. (A Stock K2 I never fear to charge, I have only been scalped by them, maybe once? A AWS-8Q Awesome? Lickinmy chops at my next meal! A Gaussapult? Imma finding cover, and gonna flank you, cuz 20-3 volleys, even with a head shot and I am SQUISH!)

IMO, the beam needs mush faster travel time, and a much smaller damage footprint. And for the Heat Issue, if those were taken care of, a good balance would be to slow the cycle times, to maybe 5-6 seconds, thus keeping them more effective, yet not OP. Right now, even with double hetasinks, I tend to find many many guns more useful and effective that PPCs or ER PPCs (Which might not have a minimum, but still damage very spottily)

View PostTwosteps, on 01 November 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

You could also just use a large laser or ER large laser instead of the PPC and not loose much range.



Why SHOULD one switch to LArge LAsers though, when PPCs are supposed to be as feared a weapon as the Gauss. The point is not what alternate build one can use to end around PPCs, but why , in the end are PPCs so badly nerfed?

#8 Zyllos

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:26 AM

Currently, I almost exclusively run the AWM-8Q (I hope I got this right) and I added Endo-Steel (should be Ferro-Fiberous, but this is another story) to bump up to 32 SHS (no reason to run DHS until the fix, which even then, I need to check to see if this exceedes 3.2 dissipation for available critical slots) and removed the arm PPC for an ER-PPC (not only long range sniping but short ranged damage).

The 32 SHS can keep a single ER-PPC going for a long time, but not constant. But that is fine, no mech needs to have an infinite TET with a certain array of weapons. Now, when targets get within approximately the 600m range (just outside the range of PPCs), I switch over to the 2 PPCs in the torso to increase DPS. These two PPCs can be fired for a bit (I always chain fire, with an almost 1.5 split) but will need to be scaled back in extended engagements. Once within the ~80m range, I switch back over to the SBL and ER-PPC.

This is what I have found using this mech. PPCs do not hit as hard as you think you it would for keeping a constant barrage. I also notice that it is really hard to finish off a mech from no damage to mech downed with just PPCs and no support. Now, because the way this weapon feels, it feels like it is a long ranged direct fire support weapon. Even with the ER-PPC, the PPC is just awful in close range. Also, the ER-PPC bolt has the same issues of ballistic shots. I wished I was taking some videos or screen shots but I had some shots go completely widly off course.

So, typically, in my Awesome, I find a good spot that has cover but can give me an open firelane to high traffic areas. Then I use my teammates to keep heat off me while I lay down a slow but constant barrage of ER-PPC fire. I usually duck back into cover a lot because of LRMs or being over zealous with the fire button. Once they get in close, I normally began backpedling and laying down as much PPC fire as I can on a single target until it drops or I receive help.

I have noticed that a lot of individuals, when receiving a lot of PPC fire, they generally just keep running at me, thinking that getting in close will keep them save. But having that ER-PPC with SBL has gotten me a kill or two. I actually even killed a Cicada coming in and circling me (but he was already hurt). That ER-PPC will only deal some damage up close, it can not save you in a brawl unless the target is already damaged, which then coupled with the SBL can actually end the fight.

So, my thoughts about the PPC/ER-PPC. I feel this weapon is not the scary weapon of the TT. I am not sure about how the weapon is applying damage. It feels as if it is spreading damage but I have seen a lot of times that the damage is localized in the location it hit. Also, considering I can deal ~90 points of damage in 9s, which seems extremely scary, I do not feel that the Awesome's array of PPCs feels quite right. Of course, one thing I am doing is chain firing and I have noticed that chain firing really spreads your damage, unless your an extremely good shot, even on a slow target. Maybe this is something that when targets are in that 400m - 600m range, instead of chain firing two PPCs, I should try alpha striking with the three PPCs and see if that feels more dangerous. And I think this is the problem, honestly. Convergent fire is just so powerful.

#9 MechaKitsune

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:33 AM

The balance between these weapons comes down to one requiring ammo and the other not.

Don't forget that a weapon that requires ammo not only carries the concern of running out of ammo mid-match, but also must allocate more tonnage on their mech just to make the weapon operable. 7 tons for a PPC with no ammo concerns, vs a 15 ton Gauss rifle with the requirement to dedicate even more tonnage to make the weapon operable.

When you look at it that way they start to even out. It's all a matter of what your play-style is.

#10 MustrumRidcully

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:52 AM

View PostMechaKitsune, on 01 November 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

The balance between these weapons comes down to one requiring ammo and the other not.

Don't forget that a weapon that requires ammo not only carries the concern of running out of ammo mid-match, but also must allocate more tonnage on their mech just to make the weapon operable. 7 tons for a PPC with no ammo concerns, vs a 15 ton Gauss rifle with the requirement to dedicate even more tonnage to make the weapon operable.

When you look at it that way they start to even out. It's all a matter of what your play-style is.

All balance calculations I made do account for the weight cost of ammo. Generally, I pack enough ammo for a weapon to fire continously for 3 minutes. For a weaopn like a Gauss, that's shots to deal up 675 damage. Even if you hit with only 1/4 of your shots, that is enough to destroy an Atlas' center torso... One weapon on one Mech to destroy the hardest target in the game. I think that's a reasonable amount of ammo.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 01 November 2012 - 05:53 AM.


#11 Vapor Trail

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:00 AM

View PostMechaKitsune, on 01 November 2012 - 05:33 AM, said:

The balance between these weapons comes down to one requiring ammo and the other not.

Don't forget that a weapon that requires ammo not only carries the concern of running out of ammo mid-match, but also must allocate more tonnage on their mech just to make the weapon operable. 7 tons for a PPC with no ammo concerns, vs a 15 ton Gauss rifle with the requirement to dedicate even more tonnage to make the weapon operable.

When you look at it that way they start to even out. It's all a matter of what your play-style is.


Thing is, if you're adding a weapon (and not just an energy weapon) to a mech whose heat dissipation capacity is already dedicated, then you have to add heat sinks or you'll lower the damage output of the mech per unit time instead of increasing it.

Lets look at a mech with a medium laser installed. A mech with the default 10 HS in it's engine has a heat dissipation rate of 1.0. That is, 1 heat per second.

A Medium laser generates 4 heat per shot, and has a max RoF of once every four seconds. This means, with a heat dissipation rate of 1.0, that the mech is heat neutral when standing still.

If you add an AC/10 to the mech, without adding heat sinks, and manually pegging the firing cycle to that of the Medium laser, you're now generating 7 heat every 4 seconds, and dissipating 4 of them. This leaves you adding 3 heat every 4 seconds to your heat gauge...and leads to overheating in about a minute (53.33 seconds).

If you add ten heat sinks along with the AC/10 (and associated ammo) you can fire the pair of weapons every four seconds without worrying about heat build up.

If you add eight heat sinks along with the AC/10 (and associated ammo) you can fire the pair of weapons every four seconds without worrying about heat build up.

If you add a high heat weapon (like a Large Pulse Laser or PPC) and expect to use it at the same RoF as the medium laser (which requires 10 sinks to hold it neutral at max RoF) you're looking at huge numbers of heat sinks.

The LPL has the same max RoF as the Medium Laser. But it requires 9 heat to be dissipated in 4 seconds instead of 4. This requires a heat dissipation rate of 9/4 or 2.25.

If you add this to the mech with the Medium laser, you have to add 23 heat sinks along with the weapon if you expect to fire it at the same rate with the same heat buildup. (ie, heat neutral).

If you replace the Medium Laser, you only need add 13 heat sinks.

If you replace the Medium, and don't add heat sinks, you are going to have to fire at a much slower rate (9 heat / 1 heat per second = 9 seconds ==> fire once every 9 seconds) than your maximum RoF or you will build up heat. Build up heat long enough by firing at Max RoF and you will shut down.

Compare the AC/10 and the LPL.

AC/10 requires 10 heat sinks and some (small) amount of ammo to be able to fire at the same rate as the Med Laser it's supporting.
LPL requires 23 heat sinks.

This means the AC/10 can carry 13 tons of ammo.
Each ton is the equivalent of a minute of fire at 1 shot every 4 seconds. (15 shots per ton * 4 seconds per shot = 60 seconds per ton).
This means, for the same mass investment, you can add an AC10 that you can fire continuously at the same rate as the medium laser for 86.67% of the match.

13 minutes of continuous fire. But who needs that much? Take three or four tons and you're probably good. Take 5 and you're almost certainly good.


LPL system requires 30 tons (7 tons weapon, 23 tons heat sinks)
AC/10 system requires 20 tons + ammo.

Thus you could take 10 tons of ammo for the same mass investment as an LPL.

10 tons of ammo at 1 shot every 4 seconds is ten minutes of fire, or 66% of a max match length. Four to six tons should be plenty.

End conclusion:
Ammo dependence is NOT a handicap.


[Edits] Screwed up my math... did this in a hurry and didn't check along the way. Fixed.

Edited by Vapor Trail, 01 November 2012 - 06:08 AM.


#12 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:10 AM

You hit the nail on the head. With the current heat situation, Energy based builds are very subpar unless your boating heatsinks + medium or small lasers.

Hopefully Nov 6th will turn that around since they are suppose to be correcting the bug with DHS so that they will actually all work as doubles (engine mounted or otherwise). They have also found some hence unknown heat bug as well they are suppose to fix on Nov 6th . I am hoping this fix leads to even cooler mechs so that PPCs and such become competitive with Gauss Rifles.

#13 Vapor Trail

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:23 AM

I'm hoping "Great unknown heat bug" turns out to be that someone forgot to change heat dissipation rate for heat sinks from .1 to .15 (which means doubles would get .3)

This would go a loooooooooooong way toward making the higher heat weapons more useable.

Gauss would still be massively powerful, but it wouldn't loom (with a great big stick and a grin) over the rest of the weapons as much.

#14 HumptyWasPushed

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:27 AM

Can't fit AC's on Awesome. ;)

#15 Vapor Trail

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:35 AM

View PostHumptyWasPushed, on 01 November 2012 - 06:27 AM, said:

Can't fit AC's on Awesome. ;)

Neither can you fit an AC/20 on a Flea.
Certain chassis won't be able to mount certain weapons, for whatever reason. That's a chassis balance issue, not a weapon balance issue.





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