45 replies to this topic

[siLve00]

i didnt know i play TTMW:O ... thats a new game or smt ?
since all complaining about lrm´s i do wonder how even a lightmech can make it to cc with an assault mech.. i dont get it.

but i did hear about tactice vs light mechs but that must be just a rumor.. lrms were yesterday... light mechs today.. tomorrow gaus then ssrm ... oh wait.. soon we have dhs and lasers.. did i miss something ? OH YEAH I DID... right at the day they put "knockdown" back into the game... we will have rivers of tears in this forum..

oh well.. so be it !

[Bromineberry]

Leetskeet, on 01 November 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

It's because if they're going faster than 97kph, the lag armor starts piling on to the point that you need to aim like 15 meters ahead of them.

For most other mechs you only have to aim 5~ meters ahead

Does this apply to all weapons? Because if I don't aim ahead with a large laser, it looks and sounds like I am hitting.

[Tempered]

Do you realize just how long it takes for a jenner to strip the armor off of a single spot on an atlas? Jenners are not the killers you think they are. They are vultures that rely on the larger mechs to do the majority of the damage while the jenners nibble at the heels. If you are being killed by a single jenner, one on one in an atlas, you are doing something very wrong or you are up against a superior pilot. My guess is that you have a load out that is focused on maximizing damage against other heavy mechs. Take some ssrms or some pulse lasers, put your back to a wall, and watch the light mechs run away or die horribly. If you are all alone on the battle field, you can be taken down by ANY mech with a good pilot, no mater what size mech you are in.

Now I will say that having no collision has made things much easier for the light mechs. I personally don't like not having collision, but I didn't like the 70 second stand up while being pulverized either. And I really didn't like the "tackle" teams which made a fine art out of knocking mechs over repeatedly.

Edited by Tempered, 01 November 2012 - 04:18 PM.

[stjobe]

Tempered, on 01 November 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

If you are all alone on the battle field, you can be taken down by ANY mech with a good pilot, no mater what size mech you are in.

And that's what we want, isn't it? Skill being the determining factor, not 'mech weight?

[197mmCannon]

stjobe, on 01 November 2012 - 03:08 PM, said:

Interesting cherry-picking there... There's three Jenner variants in MWO:

JR7-D with 119 points of armour (which would be 60 in TT)
JR7-F with 119 points of armour (again, 60 TT points)
JR7-K with 224 points of armour (which would be 112 points in TT)

Of course you chose the K for your comparison.

If you use the D or F, you get 5.1 times the armour on an Atlas (608 points, which would be 304 TT points). Didn't you say 1/5?

All is right in the world again, and you'll have to find some other explanation that you die to lights. Lag shield seems popular, you could try that one.

You obviously don't know how to add / remove armor in the mechlab.

You should check out a youtube video or something.

[Ghost Town]

I like the all rounder mechs myself

[Mack1]

Jenner has always been easymore in this game, but it's just another problem on the list.

I made a Streakcat called Hi Jenner just to get revenge, easymode v easymode, they don't like it

[General Anxiety]

Wispsy, on 01 November 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

I have been 1shot numerous times on my Jenner....usually it only takes 2 shots to one side to kill me... how mucher weaker do you want to make us?!

You are not using your speed and manuverability to your advantage. 2 shots by gauss to the back directly will kill you but no other place. Step on the gas and don't let off until unless all your enemies are dead.

Asmosis, on 01 November 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

max armor values are the same as TT x2. That applies for all mechs equally.

Now, lagshield aside all mechs have about the same level of survivability since the mech models scale pretty well with their armor values. I.E. a jenner might have 100 armor per 1 inch of hitbox, so does an atlas. This is why it seems to take so long to kill one (as well at lag etc).

The "lagshield" is only an issue for international players, or cross country players who dont use a proxy ping service to improve their routing. when you have a 50ms ping hitting a light mech is pretty easy if you can aim. with 200ms plus it is basically impossible so dont waste your time unless you have streaks.

You are incorrect. No other way to say it. I'm a jenner pilot but I play assaults and heavies too. My ping is usually below 100 and I can never hit a light at full speed going perpendicular to my view without aiming a few meters ahead. at full customize speed of 138-148 they become phantoms. I will see his armor turn bright on the screen but when I look at the damage breakdown it shows no damage taken to his mech. This is not a ping problem. I am PST.

[197mmCannon]

Lights are OP right now but it will be fixed.

Being able to ride under the legs of an atlas without getting knocked over or crushed gives them a considerable size advantage.

On the other hand no other class is as vulnerable to streaks as the lights are.

The armor should stay the way it is, just fix the netcode and mech collision.

[KKRonkka]

At the moment it's a playing field for jennies. Lag and rubberbanding caused by it is really like a force field around that devil. For *some* reasons Jenner is the main culprit for ruining my games. It doesn't seem right that I can kill Atlas easier than light mech Jenner. And oh boy, collision model being as it is - guess how many times I have seen light mech circling right under big mech's nose without any reason to worry about collision or damage? Too many. Damn exploiters.

Should you be a assault/heavy mech and should you have one of those annoying, exploit seeking light mechs running too close to you... you should have this option: "press X to crush that little piece of s*it to smithereens". Period.

[197mmCannon]

KKRonkka, on 01 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

At the moment it's a playing field for jennies. Lag and rubberbanding caused by it is really like a force field around that devil. For *some* reasons Jenner is the main culprit for ruining my games. It doesn't seem right that I can kill Atlas easier than light mech Jenner. And oh boy, collision model being as it is - guess how many times I have seen light mech circling right under big mech's nose without any reason to worry about collision or damage? Too many. Damn exploiters.

Should you be a assault/heavy mech and should you have one of those annoying, exploit seeking light mechs running too close to you... you should have this option: "press X to crush that little piece of s*it to smithereens". Period.

They aren't exploiting. The game allows them to walk around under an assault mechs legs so they are doing it.

[OpCentar]

Pulse lasers or LRM/SSRM. Problem solved, even with 150 ping


When collisions are back they will die from LRMs faster than you can type jenner in battle chat.

[Beo Vulf]

ZakarryX, on 01 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

The reason light mechs are so hard to kill is because the terrible netcode is making a bunch of your shots not even hit.

Tell me about it got a Jenner lined up square in my sites AC 20 round goes way off into left field.That is unless I'm standing 20 feet away from him. Than i have a 50/50 chance of hitting him.

[StainlessSR]

With collisions, a knock down or two (a light stayed back to tackle incoming lights) and they were history. Without collisions, you need to keep a streakcat in the backfield to deal with them (or a light with streaks, when piloting a jenner I hate 3 streak commandos). I have seen matches where a great light pilot killed the last 3 enemy mechs by himself. I have seen light pilots who run into buildings and can't seem to understand why they can't move while being pounded. As far back as I can remember the advice to Atlas pilots (the golden light rule) was back up to a building/wall/hill and call for rodent suppression. Collisions let the Atlas pilot sometimes get lucky and knock over a light to pound him to dust in that second between fully stood up and moving. An Atlas by it'self is jennerbait, they will circle and nibble away like piranha (when myself and our unit's other jenner pilot play together we like to go opposite directions so that we are harder to hit). The thing that I can't understand is when I can sneak up behind an atlas (or other large mech) and start shooting it in the leg, it stands there till the leg is down to internals or destroyed, is this what makes jenners op(?), poor situational awareness by the enemy pilot? ~50+ points of armour picked away by 4 small pulse lasers, that is quite a few hits to be missing. Yes jenners (and other fast ligthts) have lag shield. No the armor does not make them op, it makes them barely survivable.

When you lose, you need to ask yourself what you did wrong before you go pointing fingers at other things as the cause of your loss. None of us are "that good" that we didn't contribute to any loss we suffer, not even you.

[Skaulic]

OpCentar, on 01 November 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Pulse lasers or LRM/SSRM. Problem solved, even with 150 ping


When collisions are back they will die from LRMs faster than you can type jenner in battle chat.

Last sentence there, very true. Knocked down while under LRM fire is basically death for a Light mech (or was). Newer Light Mech specialists are in for a bit of a shock when collisions come back.

[Asmosis]

General Anxiety, on 01 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

You are incorrect. No other way to say it. I'm a jenner pilot but I play assaults and heavies too. My ping is usually below 100 and I can never hit a light at full speed going perpendicular to my view without aiming a few meters ahead. at full customize speed of 138-148 they become phantoms. I will see his armor turn bright on the screen but when I look at the damage breakdown it shows no damage taken to his mech. This is not a ping problem. I am PST.

when im piloting a jenner vs people who have small pings <50ms, i can tell you they have no problems hitting me. The only reason i dont die is i can keep ahead of their torso range, but i take grazing shots from arm weapons (which are not normally ac/gauss).

med/heavy mechs are my normal targets since their armor is light enough i can disable their arms before they kill me, then its easy going since torso weapons are pretty easy to stay out of range (either flanking or jumpjetting above firing arc). I'll harras an atlas, and if it ignores me i'll sit behind it and strip armor but tbh if it reacts i'll die if lrms dont start raining down on it

AC's are just wonky though, the shots dont go where your pointing half the time, its like throwing a curve ball to hit something.

[Lycan]

Asatruer, on 01 November 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

Do you really think that the increased RoF of weapons had no effect on the decision to double the armor? If it was not for the doubling of armor matches would be over a lot faster, not only because of the increased RoF, but also due to the dropping of RNG hit-location determinate. Either one of these by themself would have made for faster matches. Doubling armor has made matches longer.

Actually, you're right there I did forget the increased RoF. And since with the exception of a few weapon systems in the TT game, all weapons had a RoF of 10s, increasing the armor values would be a necessary consideration for that as well.

So, like you said, it's the combination of the two that required the doubling of armor.

Vermaxx, on 01 November 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Matches ended extremely fast in the original MWO, because people hit where they aimed and blew stock armor away in single hits. The doubled armor to 'offset' this. Clearly, doubling armor did not completely undo the fire rate changes, but they still wanted shots to be able to scare you. If this game played like a tabletop game, it wouldn't be very exciting. There would be no reason to raise the rates of fire if armor exactly counteracted their new rates.

I disagree, the tabletop game was extremely enjoyable, at least it was for me.

I can understand why moving to something like the Mechwarrior games would appeal to a lot of people but don't disregard the fun that could be had, and was, while playing the TT. There's also some features that are in the TT that can't be "ported" to a real time game. IE: Rear Firing weapons. (I suppose this could be included and they could just be "autofire" but can hear the cries of rage from the "competitive" section of player over that one). Then there's also targeting different weapons at different mechs. Can't really do that in this game as everything seems to be centered around "kill that one mech then move to the next".

Either way, it seems like you're agreeing with me, in part, with why the armor was doubled.

Edited by Lycan, 01 November 2012 - 07:16 PM.

[Wispsy]

General Anxiety, on 01 November 2012 - 04:23 PM, said:

You are not using your speed and manuverability to your advantage. 2 shots by gauss to the back directly will kill you but no other place. Step on the gas and don't let off until unless all your enemies .

Wtf, seriously what is with some people on this forum and reading comprehension.... I made a perfectly legitimate and accurate (apart from typo which is a different kind of accuracy ) statement and you just come back with l2p?!

I can play my Jenner very well thank you, however even with full armour it is possible for me to be 1shot... A gausscat hitting you in the back can one shot you, so can lrms if you happen to not see them, and also I have been 1shotted twice by streak cats. The regularity of this is irrelevant, your l2p comments make no sense in an argument about armour... Sometimes I just wish people would get off their high horse, you might not have been 1shot in your Jenner, but I have played a lot of Jenner and it can happen, my speed and piloting skills have no hearing on this, at some point somebody will be lucky enough to hit me in the back and there is a chance that will outright kill me.

Aside from that, yes I can work very hard at stopping somebody hitting me in the same place twice, but it does not change the fact that another hit there will kill me (from front not back). My personal skills have no bearing on the possibility of this happening.

I do not even know why I bother explaining this to somebody like you who will clearly think this is a whine about me dying, but there we go, first and last effort on this thread now made.

Edit: yes I do add back armour and not every gauss or lrm barrage will 1shot me, but it has happened so I must assume that it can happen.

Edited by Wispsy, 02 November 2012 - 03:23 AM.

[KKRonkka]

Quote

They aren't exploiting. The game allows them to walk around under an assault mechs legs so they are doing it.

That pretty much matches with the definition "exploiting" as far as I know. There's a feature currently that is flawed (removal of collision) and light mech pilots use it for their advantage, i.e., they exploit that broken feature:

Light mechs suffer from collision with heavier mechs as they fall down. That feature was temporarily removed. Light mechs now hug bigger mech without fear of falling/taking extra damage. Only side which benefits from this are light mechs, losers are heavy/assault mechs. It's very simple.

Edited by KKRonkka, 02 November 2012 - 03:40 AM.

[Digital Ninja]

Apostolos, on 01 November 2012 - 02:48 PM, said:

After playing over 450+ matches I am starting to think that light mechs are way too 'Tankish' and after doing a little digging through some of my books and comparing to in game values I understand why. Now some of my stats may be old and not up to date, and if so then so be it. However, here is what I have seen:

Jenner: Tabletop (and no I am not looking at it right this second, so the #'s may be off a few points) have about a total armor value of around 65. Yes.. that is TOTAL armor.

Atlas: Tabletop has about 305 total armor. These values are basic and not tweaked out numbers with best of the best, but default stats.

That shows that a Jenner should have roughly 1/5 the armor value of an Atlas. Just looking at one of the base models for Jenners in my mech lab shows 224 with an Atlas at 608. OK I get it that everything is not verbatim matches with tabletop values. However, the ratio should be. (especially considering the speeds and sports car handling of the light mechs) That is greater than 1/3 the armor value combined with the ability to literally drive circles around an assault mech. (not to mention you cannot knock them down anymore, although I think someone said that is coming back.. not sure).

I just believe that the lack of armor disparity needs to be reexamined between the weight classes.

My jenner has been 1 shotted by assaults twice today. Our armor is plenty low enough.

Skaulic, on 01 November 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

Last sentence there, very true. Knocked down while under LRM fire is basically death for a Light mech (or was). Newer Light Mech specialists are in for a bit of a shock when collisions come back.

Knocked down while anywhere near a heavy or assault is death unless the other guy is incompetent. It's not specifically LRMs. LRMs do the job pretty well though. One of the times I got one shotted above was from an LRM volley.

Edited by Digital Ninja, 02 November 2012 - 03:49 AM.