96 replies to this topic

[Victor Morson]

I've played BTU games since Crescent Hawks Inception found it's way to my Commodore 64 many years ago. That said, over the years, I've come to accept two things: The technology, as is often said, is the 80s view of the future; you can't put real world science, ranges and concepts onto all of it and expect it to stand up.

The second, which is why I made this thread, is how incredibly logic-breaking and silly a lot of things are within the universe's own rules, that we've all come to accept. Don't get me wrong, I'm not pissed at this stuff, just get a laugh out of it and figured I'd see if anyone has any other favorites.

I don't think that works the way you think that works

Flamers - A weapon that draws the heat straight from the fusion reactor and vents it! How it should work is obvious: The hotter your reactor is running, the more potent the damage that can be fueled through your flamer is. Since it's venting heat, it should cause either no heat, or actually lower it. .. except it doesn't. It spikes your heat to dump heat out of your 'mech into the atmosphere. What?

Autocannon/20s vs Gauss Rifles - An Autocannon is a big tank canon style shell, like tanks today use. A Gauss Rifle is similar to a rail gun, taking mass amounts of energy to accelerate a solid metal slug at it's target. Which is why the Gauss Rifle doesn't use the reactor hardly at all while the Autocannon costs huge heat spikes, of course.

Pulse Lasers in no way would look like "streams of ruby darts", fluff writers!

Clearly, if it's 50 degrees or 80 degrees out will make a huge impact on the heat inside of a fusion engine. Of course if you put your heatsinks into a vacuum, they'll clearly work really, really well!

Favorite Cliches (that lack logic)

Why, yes, having a small laser mounted in the back of your 'mech is going to keep the heavy 'mechs from trying to attack you there. The threat is too great!

... if you pilot 'mechs for 20 years and don't know a Rifleman can flip it's arms until it destroys you, well, I don't know what to say. Flipping arms always surprises people!

Sure, putting the most important people in the Inner Sphere at the very front of every major battle in a brightly marked target is a totally good idea. Yeah, so, a bunch of people have gotten killed getting them out. A bunch of times. Shut up, it's still a good great idea!

Clueless 'mech fluff writers

Why yes, that SRM-2 gives "serious close range punch!"

Clearly, a 'mech with an AC/5 and an LRM/10 is designed for long range dominance.

A complete failure to realize when something is really, really bad and a refusal to write it as such. The Shadow Hawk is "extremely versatile," indeed.

Adding weapons to nerf 'mechs

Don't forget, if you've made a 'mech too powerful, add ammo weapons. Add the hell out of them! The Warhawk's LRM/10 is clearly more useful at blowing things up than some more DHS would have been. Well, as long as the thing blowing up is you!

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 April 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[Adridos]

Idiots always win the day, no matter the odds.

[LaorDeLove]

LOL. Excellent. I wish I could add more, but I have not read enough of the books to know any thing that insightful.

[Max Grayson]

Victor Morson, on 09 April 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

..................Finally some common sense

+1 sir

I really hope this helps quiet down the "it must follow cannon" fanatics.

Edited by Max Grayson, 09 April 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[Soule]

You forget punching and kicking, "sure my 12ton arm will do more damage then this cannon, oh wait I shall use an articulated fist so not only will the breaking actuators and joints cushion my punch but I will spend millions to repair it so I can try and squish bob, I mean pick him up."
Or hand weapons, why if your not going to shoot some one and instead use an "axe" would you hold it in a hand? wouldn't a hydralic pivot point work better? I lol every time I read something about axes or swords and the hand holding them gets shot and drops it.

Edited by Soule, 09 April 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[Calon Farstar]

Or how about AC/Ultra cannons where you can be point blank roll a hit then have one of the two rounds miss??? Wiskey Tango Foxtrot!

[John Wolf]

Lets see what I can put forward to these points! I'm gonna bypass a couple cause its a long post.. and I don't want this to come across the wrong way.

Victor Morson, on 09 April 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

I don't think that works the way you think that works

Flamers - A weapon that draws the heat straight from the fusion reactor and vents it! How it should work is obvious: The hotter your reactor is running, the more potent the damage that can be fueled through your flamer is. Since it's venting heat, it should cause either no heat, or actually lower it. .. except it doesn't. It spikes your heat to dump heat out of your 'mech into the atmosphere. What?

Perhaps the weapons are only capable of venting X amount of heat/power before they are turned into slag themselves, so there are safety margins in place to keep from overheating the weapon itself?

Victor Morson, on 09 April 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Autocannon/20s vs Gauss Rifles - An Autocannon is a big tank canon style shell, like tanks today use. A Gauss Rifle is similar to a rail gun, taking mass amounts of energy to accelerate a solid metal slug at it's target. Which is why the Gauss Rifle doesn't use the reactor hardly at all while the Autocannon costs huge heat spikes, of course.

Eh, I'm not sure what you're trying to do here.. other than the heat use between the AC and the Gauss Rifle. Since you've already explained in a fashion the differences..

Victor Morson, on 09 April 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Favorite Cliches (that lack logic)

Why, yes, having a small laser mounted in the back of your 'mech is going to keep the heavy 'mechs from trying to attack you there. The threat is too great!

... if you pilot 'mechs for 20 years and don't know a Rifleman can flip it's arms until it destroys you, well, I don't know what to say. Flipping arms always surprises people!

Rear mounted weapons just make the rear facing of a mech a threat, where as most cases a mech is defenseless from the rear. As for the rifleman, the NORM is mech weapondry only facing forward, when you see that all the time sometimes you forget that Mech X can do a simple arm flip. This happens in ALL kinds of things, the fact that you think its impossible to forget a feature on one mech you may not fight all the time is a little silly.

Victor Morson, on 09 April 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Clueless 'mech fluff writers

Why yes, that SRM-2 gives "serious close range punch!"

Clearly, a 'mech with an AC/5 and an LRM/10 is designed for long range dominance.

A complete failure to realize when something is really, really bad and a refusal to write it as such. The Shadow Hawk is "extremely versatile," indeed.

Adding weapons to nerf 'mechs

Don't forget, if you've made a 'mech too powerful, add ammo weapons. Add the hell out of them! The Warhawk's LRM/10 is clearly more useful at blowing things up than some more DHS would have been. Well, as long as the thing blowing up is you!

SRM 2 is a cheap close range crit seeker. AC5 and LRM 10s are meant for that long range punch. You have to understand that the universe is NOT a minmax fest. Each mech is designed with a core concept in mind, and balance between hundreds of designs. There are inherant flaws in all kinds of mechs, by design. Mech has a lot of weapons but heat issues? Thats balance.. The Shadow Hawk is versatile because of its mix of weapons. Long range and up close punch. It doesn't have to have 20 MPLs to have a punch, and you're talking about a universe where technology is at a premium and a ride that gives you all those options is useful indeed.

Mechs in Battletech are a lot life its people.. Flawed in some way. I really like how things are designed and honestly try to keep to that design method whenever I design a mech. The further along in the timeline you get though, the better off designs are in my opinion, but the old classics are still that.. old, and classic.

[Marowi]

(applauds) *EDIT (applauds the OP)

At least you can fix the AC/20-Gauss rifle and Flamer issues on the tabletop with a gentlemen's agreement. But even the computer games followed this "logic"!

Edited by Marowi, 09 April 2012 - 10:05 AM.

[John Wolf]

Calon Farstar, on 09 April 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Or how about AC/Ultra cannons where you can be point blank roll a hit then have one of the two rounds miss??? Wiskey Tango Foxtrot!

I'm gonna have to stay out of this thread or I'll feel like an english teacher with a red pen. 'point blank' is not 10 feet, remember, one hex range is still I believe 100 meters away? Its 'point blank' on the board, but there is still a range between the targets and easily possible to miss. Its not like you're putting the barrel of the weapon into the target's chest.

[Vexgrave Lars]

There are a lot of holes in the fusion/heat/weapons arena, and you only call out a few. I'm sure the 1960's Star Trekkian explanations were used to try and assemble some reason for rules and mechanics balancing purposes. From today's perspective on science, mathematics, and physics, it does seem kinda quaint.

Nice post though, bet if FASA did rewrite it, there would be quite a few changes (technical), and clarifications (scientific), much to the chagrin of many a canon enthusiast.

[Trevnor]

Vexgrave Lars, on 09 April 2012 - 10:15 AM, said:

There are a lot of holes in the fusion/heat/weapons arena, and you only call out a few. I'm sure the 1960's Star Trekkian explanations were used to try and assemble some reason for rules and mechanics balancing purposes. From today's perspective on science, mathematics, and physics, it does seem kinda quaint.

Nice post though, bet if FASA did rewrite it, there would be quite a few changes (technical), and clarifications (scientific), much to the chagrin of many a canon enthusiast.

I would prefer that honestly. Sure, canon is great and all, but if it was evolved to make more sense in the scientific arena, I'd be very happy!

[chewie]

Hmm, I'm not sure if your trolling or serious........

Quote

Autocannon/20s vs Gauss Rifles - An Autocannon is a big tank canon style shell, like tanks today use. A Gauss Rifle is similar to a rail gun, taking mass amounts of energy to accelerate a solid metal slug at it's target. Which is why the Gauss Rifle doesn't use the reactor hardly at all while the Autocannon costs huge heat spikes, of course.

Its MYTH BUSTING TIME!!!!!!

If, we take an AC shell, as being *like* a standardised current tank shell, but fired in multiples (eg, 2, 5 10 or 20) from a cassette or similar type loading medium, then each shell is going to generate heat within the breach as it is fired. no energy required, just heat expended when fired. No drain on the reactor or heat produced from powering it, except for the motors that supply the next reload.

A Gauss round is a metallic projectile accelerated by a series of linear magnets set in a series of rails along the outside of the *barrel*, hence the term RAIL gun. Now, the last time I checked, phased linear magnets take power to operate, in order to make something accelerate. This power is drawn from the mechs fusion reactor.

Now this takes a fair it of power in 1 bit hit, and is more than the reactor is used to putting out in 1 go. Kind of like a cold start, straight into top speed running puts drain on the reactor etc etc.

So the reactor works a little bit harder to provide the power to the magnets in order to move the projectile down the length of the barrel and out the end towards your target.

Despite this extra power drain, the Gauss rifle gives off little or no heat as it has nothing that can heat up, except the power linkages and the barrel as the round scrapes along it.

thats 1 myth busted


See the final book in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, when Phelan is facing off against Vlad, and Phelan says to himself how Vlad cannot use both gauss rifles at once, because of the power drain on the mechs reactor (or words to that effect)



Oh wait, you weren't trolling or being serious......


oh no!!!!!, that makes me the Trollololollooolll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tannhauser Gate]

Its fantasy so there are going to be things that don't hold up to rl scientific principles. Each new MW iteration has evolved and modernized the mechs, weapons, and tech and Im good with that. Its been a decade since there has been a new title so we are due for a major dose of modernization of BT. Im good with keeping all the classic mechs and gear by name, apperance, function, and how it relates to the timeline but Im also good with reinventing the details of things like the pulse lasers that seem to fall short of the reality meter.

When I say keep it BT and keep it canon, I mean keep the classic names, places, events, mechs, people, weapons, time line, and story intact. How realistic the combat is, the details of the weapons, and how tech works can be updated to balance with the universe as each game attempts to bring a better simulation of BT to the community.

[Maester]

Good sirs, please, you must not understand the mechanics behind the fusion engine's operation: the harder you drain them, the colder their core becomes - completely unlike those heat machines we use today - although, I must admit, that the wire that feed's this power to subsystems may get hot. The latter must be fairly limited, because we are more than once told that in the mech we have high voltage and low amperage.
Although here, and preety much everywhere, I see a "bad" (as opposed to good) bet of confusion btw the principaly different accelerator concepts: the "rail" and the "gauss". The former been the user of Ampers force, the latter - the magnetism forces. As far as I am led to belive the gauss in the BTT is same as gauss in IRL - the magnetic one, which is viewed by modern science as a good (potential) mean to launch BIG projectiles with reasonable speeds of 3-5 km/s (approx. twice the speed of modern tank gun sabots). This is due to self-contradiction: the need to reach high magnetic field on coil, and in the same time have the coils on and off very fast. Worth noting, that although the coils are powered by high voltage (that fits well in the mech's design) the magnetic field is generated by current - so unless the coils in BTT are maid of superconductor they will have some heat from the shot (with modern installments into gauss gun having efficiency 1/3 top, the heat must be noticeable).
For the part on Flamers (to add onto my first paragraph): plasma, while it circles the reactors core is in a kind of controlled environment where the heat it releases is used to power both other systems and keep the plasma itself in check - so effectively all the waste heat is thrown back into the plasma. Now when you try to route that fiery force somewhere you must use some kind of magnetic tube which is far less a controlable environment - perhaps it has less powerfull magnets then the core and the plasma comes closer to the casing, or it has joints or curves where the containment fields are weaker etc. Basicaly it is no problem, fore that vent is not operated continuously... So the plasmas energy comes out through the casing and spreads into the insides of the machine that fires the flamer. It has nothing to do with the power drain on the core.
Sorry for my terrible English, tis not my mothers tongue, so bare with me:)
PS
And the game absolutely must not be "real" to be great and fun, although the BTT is very much realistic compared to most other settings:)

Edited by Maester, 09 April 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[Victor Morson]

chewie, on 09 April 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

Despite this extra power drain, the Gauss rifle gives off little or no heat as it has nothing that can heat up, except the power linkages and the barrel as the round scrapes along it.

The fact weapons cause heat is due to the fact they cause energy spikes in the reactor, causing it to run hotter.

If a magic cryogenic sub-zero ice-shooting weapon existed, it would (by that internal logic) probably cost you quite a bit of heat. Though with the way other weapons work, it'd probably be the only weapon to cool you off. My point is weapon heat creation has nothing to do with, say, hot barrels.

LakeDaemon, on 09 April 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Its fantasy so there are going to be things that don't hold up to rl scientific principles. Each new MW iteration has evolved and modernized the mechs, weapons, and tech and Im good with that. Its been a decade since there has been a new title so we are due for a major dose of modernization of BT. Im good with keeping all the classic mechs and gear by name, apperance, function, and how it relates to the timeline but Im also good with reinventing the details of things like the pulse lasers that seem to fall short of the reality meter.

When I say keep it BT and keep it canon, I mean keep the classic names, places, events, mechs, people, weapons, time line, and story intact. How realistic the combat is, the details of the weapons, and how tech works can be updated to balance with the universe as each game attempts to bring a better simulation of BT to the community.

I definitely am not here attacking canon or saying to change this stuff. I can't imagine the balance would be right at all if suddenly UAC/20s ran cool! Just talking about the sillier internal inconsistencies in the universe's own logic - which I take as entirely different than real world logic.

It's kind of like there's no real world logic in the world to justify a genetic mutation causing someone to fire lasers out of his eyes, but if I roll with that and then sometimes he fires liquid instead, it's going to be a bit strange.

Edited by Victor Morson, 09 April 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[Roh]

Op, I would very much like it if you didn't try to pollute my joyous fantasies with your filthy, dirty logic!!

[LaorDeLove]

chewie, on 09 April 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

See the final book in the Blood of Kerensky trilogy, when Phelan is facing off against Vlad, and Phelan says to himself how Vlad cannot use both gauss rifles at once, because of the power drain on the mechs reactor (or words to that effect)



Oh wait, you weren't trolling or being serious......


oh no!!!!!, that makes me the Trollololollooolll!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It was in the second book of the trilogy. I am currently reading it. It was during the battle for position that Natasha and Phelan took together. Good memory though.

[Zerik]

chewie, on 09 April 2012 - 10:32 AM, said:

...A Gauss round is a metallic projectile accelerated by a series of linear magnets set in a series of rails along the outside of the *barrel*, hence the term RAIL gun. Now, the last time I checked, phased linear magnets take power to operate, in order to make something accelerate. This power is drawn from the mechs fusion reactor...

Well, I liked all of the post except for this part, forgetting that a Gauss Rifle in fact operates as a coil gun, which is not a railgun. Wires wrapped in a coil around the barrel that when charged created an electromagnet that then flings the projectile...And I can say from personal experience, those wires in the coil DO get hot!
That said though, they get nowhere near as hot as the barrel of, say, an AK-47 after firing off a clip as rapidly as you can squeeze the trigger (damn laws against civvies owning automatic weapons). Both scaled up, the same would still ring true that the automatic cannon firing off anywhere from 1 to 30 rounds a second would still be the hotter weapon...Depending on the model of autocannon of course. One that fires one large round could, perhaps, create less heat that then bleeds into the rest of the 'Mech than say, one that fires 10 mid sized rounds from a casette.

[BerryChunks]

because those versatile mechs are fighting mechs with equal tonnage and number of weapons, usually.

[Hao Yu]

The greatest lack of logic for me is still in the basic game. You don't even need to add the fluff. Autocannons being heavier than lasers? Lighter and smaller shells having greater range than heavy cannons?