21 replies to this topic

[Devils Advocate]

Are the hitscan weapons really hitscan? People are frustrated about the light mechs because you seem to have to 'lead' them with lasers. Is that because we lack client-side hitscan? I find myself firing at moving lights and getting the red reticule, which implies that, client side, I've got a hit confirmation, but they don't seem to take any damage, or greatly reduced damage. I fired *4* alphas of 4 large pulse lasers at 80 meters at a centurion who had a red, exposed center torso, and a red exposed right torso, with *no* left torso or right arm, and he didn't die from it. He wasn't even moving perpendicular to me or moving very fast because he was missing a leg. Somehow none of it registered server side even though my reticule was coming up red on the client side.

I'm wondering if it has something to do with my frame-rate. My ping is always around 100ms but my framerate varies pretty wildly. On river it's not uncommon for me to hit 8 frames in a big fight, which makes aiming while moving all but impossible, but I find that standing still with 8 frames some of my hits might not be connecting. Once upon a time, in the old Quake 2 multiplayer days, I remember tweaking packet settings to reflect frame-rate so that client side data sent out would be in sync with what my system was recording taking place, else-wise you might get dropped packets or redundant ones. Is this technology still in effect today with the cryengine?

[mike29tw]

Nope it's not just you. All hit detection are server side.

Contrary to your experience, I have to lead my laser to get the red hit indicator though.

[Redshift2k5]

Hit detection is currently an issue.

Note that many, many online games use server-side authentication for their weapon mechanics and nobody ever complains; These games have all had time to finesse their lag compensation code and prediction code to such a degree that all users with normal lag/latency levels percieve a virtually flawless hit detection. You tuned quake3, but a software engineer already wrote the code you were "tweaking".

Hit detection is being worked on; there are flaws with 'lag shields'/'lag shooting', and seperate flaws with hit boxes somehow becoming unhooked from the 3D model (so you need to shoot next to a target instead of at a target).

Note that networking with the Cryengine is easier said than done, but they are working on this.

[Korobug]

I feel like it's not JUST the server. Though I have the problems on occasion, it's not nearly as severe as what I've heard here.

[Devils Advocate]

Truth be told my limited experiences with watching the implementation of hit detection started with Urban Terror, a Quake 3 modification which implemented client-side hit detection so players wouldn't have to lead their shots anymore. I know that opens the door for cheating, but seeing as how that door is already wide I guess it isn't a super big concern. I had imagined that lasers were client-side, but if they really are server-side I'll have to make some adjustments. Might explain a whole heck of a lot though.

[Kunae]

Devils Advocate, on 02 November 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

I know that opens the door for cheating, but seeing as how that door is already wide I guess it isn't a super big concern.

You are wrong, the "door" isn't "already wide".

If they moved hit-detect client-side this game would go to hell in about 5 seconds.

[zhajin]

Kunae, on 02 November 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

You are wrong, the "door" isn't "already wide".

If they moved hit-detect client-side this game would go to hell in about 5 seconds.

yeah client side hit detection makes aim bots easy and 100% accurate. gauss cats would be unstopable....

[Soda Popinsky]

Kunae, on 02 November 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

You are wrong, the "door" isn't "already wide".

If they moved hit-detect client-side this game would go to hell in about 5 seconds.

Didn't happen in Red Orchestra 2. A player in the community made a client-side mutator, and the devs made it (or a version of it) official. Cheating hasn't been an issue (except when newbies accuse very good players of it). Though the game has a smaller, more mature community than most FPSes, and uses VAC & Punkbuster.

I wonder if the MWO client could handle cheat checks. If so, this could be an option. This community doesn't seem to be filled with "CoD kiddies.

Edited by Soda Popinsky, 18 January 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Viper69]

I often wonder to myself how awesome this game would be to play over a LAN with no worry about server hit detection and damage and return was nigh instantaneous.

[Rotaugen]

Soda Popinsky, on 18 January 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Didn't happen in Red Orchestra 2. A player in the community made a client-side mutator, and the devs made it (or a version of it) official. Cheating hasn't been an issue (except when newbies accuse very good players of it). Though the game has a smaller, more mature community than most FPSes, and uses VAC & Punkbuster.

I wonder if the MWO client could handle cheat checks. If so, this could be an option. This community doesn't seem to be filled with "CoD kiddies.

I put in hundreds of hours on RO2 and its beta too. Might have to head back and check it out.

I'd like to have that level of trust, but I've seen hacking in so many other games. Then again, this is not COD.

[Vulix]

If this game switched to client side hit detection, I could literally make a hack in 10 minutes. I did it in 1998 back when no one had the bandwidth to push a lot of data between client-servers. It wouldn't be hard to do it again.

[DEN_Ninja]

Soda Popinsky, on 18 January 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Didn't happen in Red Orchestra 2. A player in the community made a client-side mutator, and the devs made it (or a version of it) official. Cheating hasn't been an issue (except when newbies accuse very good players of it). Though the game has a smaller, more mature community than most FPSes, and uses VAC & Punkbuster.

I wonder if the MWO client could handle cheat checks. If so, this could be an option. This community doesn't seem to be filled with "CoD kiddies.

Here's the difference between the two. One is a game that you honestly have to buy. The risk of actually hacking and getting caught is being banned. There goes your money.

This is a F2P model even if people try to argue. This game is free, you can start up with not cost to you. There is no real risk to any program user or hacker because they can simply make another account.

You open Pandora's box and it makes stompy robot action plus nexon level security, then everyone and their mother has hack tools.

[Viper69]

Vulix, on 18 January 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

If this game switched to client side hit detection, I could literally make a hack in 10 minutes. I did it in 1998 back when no one had the bandwidth to push a lot of data between client-servers. It wouldn't be hard to do it again.

Anyone with a half brained hex editor could make a client side cheat for hit detection, even modify the damage done by your weapon too.

What would be nice if it were hybrid in that your client did the damage and then just double checked with the server to make sure your damage is a valid value and to a acceptable location via the range polling last known.

[Soda Popinsky]

Viper69, on 18 January 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Anyone with a half brained hex editor could make a client side cheat for hit detection, even modify the damage done by your weapon too.

What would be nice if it were hybrid in that your client did the damage and then just double checked with the server to make sure your damage is a valid value and to a acceptable location via the range polling last known.

But can't game companies use anti-cheat software? As long as it's kept up to date, it shouldn't be a problem.

Good point about the lack of investment with a free game though. Nothing to loose. Crazy idea, what if Client-Side got unlocked after the cadet training time (25 matches). So the player is at least vested time wise.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Soda Popinsky, on 18 January 2013 - 03:32 PM, said:

But can't game companies use anti-cheat software? As long as it's kept up to date, it shouldn't be a problem.

Good point about the lack of investment with a free game though. Nothing to loose. Crazy idea, what if Client-Side got unlocked after the cadet training time (25 matches). So the player is at least vested time wise.

Even Balance, the folks who make Punk Buster and get paid by Activision, EA and other companies to make sure the software is included with their games can tell you exactly how easy it is to keep up with the hackers....

It's impossible, PB is usually 2 to 3 generations behind the current hacks for any given game it's included with, and that's WITH the folks at Even Balance having access to the latest and greatest hacks as soon as they are availible. It's a catch up game, always has been, always will be, and it's worse with games that allow the client to have any control over the data, which is why so many games have moved away that. And it's why Even Balance exists as a company in the first place, they were a group of modders who got PO'd at all the hacks in the original Counter Strike community and decided to fight back, but Valve refused to give them any help..flat out refused to support anti-hack tech of any sort by any one.

Think on that...

But back to how MWO is doing it, server side auth. CryEngine comes native with client side predication netcode, not server side, so the guys at PGI are literally having to redo the netcode from the ground up, but they can't just rip out what's there and put in what they want, it's part of the core engine so that can't be done. They instead have to refactor it, much harder, total PITA, and it's taking a while due to that. Why CryEngine comes with client side..ask CryTek, but they aren't the only ones still using it, it's not industry standard to do it server or client, that's chosen by the developers. MMOs are always server, most FPS are client, but some, like the Battlefield series of games, are server, specifically done in order to combat hacks. Ain't perfect, the hackers are able to get in anything, just ask any security company out there

[Shismar]

Anti-Cheat software is very unpleasant as it has to look at a lot of stuff running on your computer (privacy issues) and often prevents valid non-cheat software from running. With serverside-detection it is also completely unnecessary.

Better netcode should improve aiming and reduce lagshield but it will never completely eliminate it. Some localized servers may be necessary. I am sure, an EU server would motivate many players to play that do not like the current 100-150ms ping.

[Dreepa]

Kunae, on 02 November 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

You are wrong, the "door" isn't "already wide".

If they moved hit-detect client-side this game would go to hell in about 5 seconds.

Care to explain why?
Cheats are out there already.

What is the difference between a hack that tells the server "I hit location X with gun A on mech B" or a hack that tells the server "Fire gun A on vector X/Y/Z"?

[mike29tw]

Dreepa, on 20 February 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

Care to explain why?
Cheats are out there already.

What is the difference between a hack that tells the server "I hit location X with gun A on mech B" or a hack that tells the server "Fire gun A on vector X/Y/Z"?

Client-side hit detection opens up for the "press one button and everyone on the other team dies" kind of hack.

In a F2P game where you can create a new account in a matter of seconds, the game would be infested with all kinds of outrageous hacks.

[Dreepa]

mike29tw, on 20 February 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Client-side hit detection opens up for the "press one button and everyone on the other team dies" kind of hack.

In a F2P game where you can create a new account in a matter of seconds, the game would be infested with all kinds of outrageous hacks.

You could set up rules on the server. If a client tells the server some bullsh** that would not be possible, the server responds with "Sorry dude, not gonna happen".

Server knows the mech config the player is bringing.Server knows the weapon ROFs, torso turning speed/angles, max range etc etc.

I know its probably quite some work to set up all those rules. However, isnt rewriting the whole cry-engine hit detection system and adding stuff like state-rewinding at least the same amount of work?!

Edited by Dreepa, 20 February 2013 - 09:50 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Dreepa, on 20 February 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

What is the difference between a hack that tells the server "I hit location X with gun A on mech B" or a hack that tells the server "Fire gun A on vector X/Y/Z"?

Both are essentially the same thing..?

It's possible to aimbot lasers locally as they are hit scan, but with firing delay on most others weapons, you still would have to actually manually aim to actually land your shots.

The other thing is because serverside authenticates everything, wall hacks, speed hacks and all those.. yeah GL with hacking the server.