57 replies to this topic

[Fameth Sathronaveth]

StaggerCheck, on 09 April 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Modified post to reflect SRM standard pack in question #1 and LRM missiles for question #3. Sorry everyone!

I did not want to read every post, but read the next five or so and noticed no one brought this up...

FYI - might want to take out the reference to a missile lock then - unless they are strk they have no lock.

[LackofCertainty]

SRM's should mostly fire like a block of missiles. Have them slightly follow the reticule, but they are primarily dumb missiles. Streak SRM (the srm with lock) should mostly hit the target if you keep your reticule the whole time (aka 4-6 hits) and mostly miss if you get a lock for a second and then turn and run (1-3 hits)

Lasers have convergance, and the way it was described by the devs sounds perfect to me.

LRM's should behave similar to streaks when it comes to locking (if you keep them in the reticule the whole time, most will hit, and if not few will hit) One thing of note. No mech should ever be able to "outrun" missiles on a flat plane. The only way you should get out of getting hit by LRM's that have a lock is if you can snake behind some cover before they get to you. If you let a catapult get a lock on your jenner while you were scouting, then you best have a forest/a building/a cliff to hide behind before the missiles reach you, or you're likely boned.

[The Destinator]

Personally I like how Living Legends' missiles acted. SRMs had fast lock and decent tracking but low fuel,(They'd blow up if they flew for a couple hundred meters) MRMs acted like TOW missiles, and LRMs were essentially sniper missiles(Slow lock, Mininum effective range, long and fast flight time). I can understand if a couple of my LRMs don't hit a target cause the guy ran behind a small rock but if the whole salvo smashes into the side of the commando sized granite I'm gonna be a little angry, I like how the verticalish fire of the LL LRMs act after all. I really didn't like the(Although very comical) incredibly persistent LRMs of MW4. Nothings says "Hey you missed!" like LRMs pulling a top gun and smashing your backside(MW4:Mercs Madcats brought so much rage)

Personally I never have had to deal with laser convergence issues(MW4 player) so I can't really weigh in on that matter...

[Felbombling]

Fameth Sathronaveth, on 09 April 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

FYI - might want to take out the reference to a missile lock then - unless they are strk they have no lock.

LackofCertainty, on 09 April 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

SRM's should mostly fire like a block of missiles. Have them slightly follow the reticule, but they are primarily dumb missiles. Streak SRM (the srm with lock) should mostly hit the target if you keep your reticule the whole time (aka 4-6 hits) and mostly miss if you get a lock for a second and then turn and run (1-3 hits)

Both SRM and LRM missiles achieve better hit results if you have a lock on target, but you can make snap shots with them, too, based on description in the novels. [I know... a stretch, but still...] Streak SRM missiles will not fire unless a lock is attained, and at that point the whole flight will hit, unless some or all of them are intercepted by AMS. Dumb missiles would be classified as MRM [medium range missiles], and/or Dead-Fire SRM/LRM and Rockets, which have no targeting system installed, should they be introduced into the game.

[Pvt Dancer]

So I have no idea what the thought process is for the making of the poll or the goal you intend to achieve. Feels kinda like a troll post.

[Straylight]

SRMs are dumbfire, if I recall, trading guidance systems for bigger warheads. So, how many hit depends on how good my aim is.

4 MBLs depends on how much time I had to line up the shot. If it's a quick snap-shot my convergence is probably going to be off. If the other guy gave me enough time to get him dialed in, I expect to put all four through the same hole.

For the LRMs, it's not a question of how FAR he goes, but how well the missiles can track him. If the Jenner hits the 'go' button and can stay outside that arc, I expect that the missiles will hit the ground behind him or will simply lose lock and wander off.

[Solis Obscuri]

Fetladral, on 09 April 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Most missles fired from aircraft today still need target lock but they are phasing them out slowly for true fire and forget. The main reason isn't the lack of the tech but that the ones requiring a lock for maximum effect are cheaper than putting a whole radar on a missle. The Sparrow missle is semi-guided. The AIM 120 which is replacing the Sparrow (AIM 7) has active guidance. First Active Guidance missle was the AIM 54 Pheonix range a little over 100 miles. Which the F-14's carried up to 6 so in Top Gun they couldv'e taken out those MIGs long before they got into dog fighting range.

Tom Cruise's (REMOVED) Mindhead Appliantology Scientiology interfered with the radar...

Edited by Mason Grimm, 10 April 2012 - 06:00 AM.
We do not portrey those with alternative sexual lifestyles in a negative light on this here forum!!!!

[Siilk]

There are no appropriate answers in the poll, so here are my thoughts:

Q: You get a target lock for your standard SRM 6 and pull the trigger. How many missiles to you expect to hit the target?
A: Anywhere from 0 to 6 of them. SRMs shouldn't have any lock at all, they are unguided and must be aimed with some lead if the target is moving. Thus it's all up to pilot's targeting skills.

Q: Your Mech is armed with 4 Medium Lasers. Your pipper is over the target and you pull the trigger.
A: All lasers, mounted on the torso converge to torso reticle, all lasers, mounted on mech arms converge to arms' reticle. Their convergence it accurate.

Q: You had a good lock for your LRM 15 and you fired, but your target is a speedy little scout Mech. How far off original course should the missiles wander to chase the target down?
Vanilla LRMs having a homing ability is not a canon for TT, but it's pretty much the only option for MW games to make them useful, so they definitely have to have a tracking ability. LRMs would try to track a mech up to their maximum flight distance but there would be no guarantee that they would hit their target; LRMs should not be extremely good at tracking fast moving targets. This means, LRMs would not able to perform fast turns or other crazy manoeuvres, a nimble mech(especially if it has jumpjets) would have a reasonable chance to make some of them miss it. U-turn radius for LRMs should be at least 300-350 meters, so if the missile misses it's target, it would hardly be able to steer back to try and hit the target again. As a good example, you can look at MWLL LRMs, they are very close to being perfect.

[Felbombling]

Pvt Dancer, on 09 April 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

So I have no idea what the thought process is for the making of the poll or the goal you intend to achieve. Feels kinda like a troll post.

I'm fairly new to message boards, so I really don't know what a 'troll post' is. Having said that, looking at the responses from the first question, it is clear that the community has a wide range of views as to what kind of tracking system the Short Range Missile has built in. Some think none at all, some think they have a basic system and some think it has streak characteristics. I find these results interesting, even if you don't. Sorry for being a 'troll', or whatever. Can't please all of the people all of the time, I guess.

[Blue Shadow]

I've always thought of mechwarrior as "sim like" fitting snug between realism and action. So I'd expect it would take a number of seconds to score a lock but not as long as it would take an F-4 Phantom, then most if not all missiles would hit in an ideal situation yet very few would hit in a less then ideal situation. That's what I'd expect anyways...

By the way staggerCheck, you choose well the A-10 is an awesome plane! Has so much character lol. Have you played that new sim DCS A-10 Warthog?

[Shai tan]

My vote is for NO omnipotent weaps. Or what`s the point really?

[MaddMaxx]

here is some facts from the Rule Book (per say)

Description

Short-Range Missiles (SRM) pack more power into the missile than almost any other kind. They lack sophisticated guidance systems, so they must deliver their punch at short range. The SRM-6 fires six such missiles at a time.

Description

First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.^[1]

• LRM-5
  
• LRM-10
  
• LRM-15
  
• LRM-20

Description



Streak Missile Launcher technology was developed and applied to the SRM-2 by the Terran Hegemony in 2647. It was not until around 2820 that the Clans applied the technology to larger launchers. Streak technology ensures that all missile tubes acquire a target lock before its missiles fire. This improvement upon standard Short-Range Missiles conserves ammunition and eliminates unnecessary heat buildup. The Streak SRM-6 is the largest and heaviest of the Streak launchers.
My suggestion would be to buy and install an Artemis IV FCS if you plan and using a lot of Missile based chassis.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 10 April 2012 - 06:00 AM.

[T0RC4ED]

Missiles should track in a limited fashion. If the target is semi-stationary most should hit, but if its moving the chance of miss should increase. Direction of fire should also be accounted for. Example, if the victim is running away from you in a strait line and you let a locked on salvo go it would be a safe bet that most the missiles should land. Zigging and zagging should make dodging some of the salvo possible.

Torso lasers in my mind would have their optics mounted in a fassion that they are going to hit the center of the crosshairs for the most part. Dammage to them should cause some degree of deviation. There should also be a minimal convergance time for the toros lasers to align properly on targets at at different range. IE if you are targeting a rock at long range and then turn to target a mech at short range the lasers should automatically converge on your crosshairs, but it shouldnt be instant.

Arm lasers should have a similar effect as torso lasers.
Everything above concerning lasers should also include other fire and forget weapons such as ballistic weapons PPCs. ect.

Edited by T0RC4ED, 10 April 2012 - 06:54 AM.

[BerryChunks]

MaddMaxx, on 10 April 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

here is some facts from the Rule Book (per say)

Description

Short-Range Missiles (SRM) pack more power into the missile than almost any other kind. They lack sophisticated guidance systems, so they must deliver their punch at short range. The SRM-6 fires six such missiles at a time.

Description

First introduced in 2400 by the Terran Hegemony, Long Range Missiles are designed to engage the enemy at great distances at the expense of damage dealt. Adapted towards the profusion of electronic jamming on the battlefield and the effectiveness of current armor designs, these missiles are capable of indirect fire and disperse over a smaller area than Short Range Missiles. Inner Sphere LRM launchers achieve this range by firing at a ballistic launch angle, making them less accurate at close range. Clan LRM launchers do not suffer from this effect, in addition to being smaller and more compact, thanks to their technological advantage. LRMs are highly upgradable, able to fire a variety of warheads and benefit from devices such as Artemis IV FCS.^[1]

• LRM-5
  
• LRM-10
  
• LRM-15
  
• LRM-20

Description





Streak Missile Launcher technology was developed and applied to the SRM-2 by the Terran Hegemony in 2647. It was not until around 2820 that the Clans applied the technology to larger launchers. Streak technology ensures that all missile tubes acquire a target lock before its missiles fire. This improvement upon standard Short-Range Missiles conserves ammunition and eliminates unnecessary heat buildup. The Streak SRM-6 is the largest and heaviest of the Streak launchers.
My suggestion would be to buy and install an Artemis IV FCS if you plan and using a lot of Missile based chassis.

the whole SRM argument of dumbfire not tracking missiles is dumb. Just reading this, it can be implied that if SRMs have a lock, they track, given the fact that streak SRM will not fire without a lock. Indicating that SRMs can dumbfire mode by NOT locking, or wait for a lock. Whats the point of waiting for that lock if they don't track? If anything, the indirect fire capability and "more sophisticated guidance" of the LRMs indicate that SRMs track slowly and can hit slower targets better but have very limited Z axis turn rate. In contrast, LRMs, due to their package, are capable of going around objects when properly aimed and then still can hit the target, indicating higher Z axis agility.


People need to think.

Edited by BerryChunks, 10 April 2012 - 07:52 AM.

[MaddMaxx]

BerryChunks, on 10 April 2012 - 07:49 AM, said:

the whole SRM argument of dumbfire not tracking missiles is dumb. Just reading this, it can be implied that if SRMs have a lock, they track, given the fact that streak SRM will not fire without a lock. Indicating that SRMs can dumbfire mode by NOT locking, or wait for a lock. Whats the point of waiting for that lock if they don't track? If anything, the indirect fire capability and "more sophisticated guidance" of the LRMs indicate that SRMs track slowly and can hit slower targets better but have very limited Z axis turn rate. In contrast, LRMs, due to their package, are capable of going around objects when properly aimed and then still can hit the target, indicating higher Z axis agility.

People need to think.

How can you imply that which is not stated as such. The text reads no such thing for SRM's. They "lack" sophisticated guidance systems. Whereas a SSRM's is provided that sophistication.

Some people need to read.

[Dayuhan]

Unless the Standard SRM6 has Artemis IV targetting the number of missles that actually hit will be random (1 to 6) - to get a lock for all missiles you need the more advanced Streak SRM system, and at least to begin with on the Streak SRM-2 will be available to the Inner Sphere. The Standard SRM system is a dumb-fire system, the only purpose of the lock is to orient the missile launcher on the 'mech's chassis in the direction the missiles will actually be fired - once they are out of the tubes its potluck.

Even if you fire lasers as a group they are each still targetting seperately so in the background their will be a seperate target resolution for each of the four lasers so you can get a mix: All could hit, All could miss, or one, two, or three could hit.

The fastest of the speedy 'mechs even if you push it with MASC is roughly 200 kilometres per hour - missiles travel somewhere in the neighborhood of 2100 metres-per-second - that is 2.1 kilometres per second . Unless that speedy light 'mech is already at the extreme range of the LRM missles he won't be able to take a step before they impact. Of course, again like the SRM, the LRM will have a random number of those missiles actually hit.

Edited by Dayuhan, 10 April 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[Ragotag]

Oswin Aurelius, on 09 April 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

I believe that light 'mechs NEED to be able to outrun tracking weapons. That's the point of having a high speed, lightly
armored 'mech.

I hate to pull out the "reasonable future tech" card here, but unless technology in the BattleTech universe has devolved over a millennia, I would expect the slowest missiles to travel at least ~500 kph based on current real life military tech. So outrunning SRM's and LRM's in a light 'Mech (even with MASC) that can't even exceed ~175 kph seems a bit unrealistic to me for a combat simulator. What I can accept is a minimum time for a FCS (fire control system) to lock onto a target, which would give fast 'Mechs utilizing terrain and cover a huge advantage against such weapon systems; but if they get locked by a FCS, then they should get popped in my opinion. This is another reason why ECM should be a key piece of gear on a light 'Mech, to help confuse missile guidance systems.

[Ragotag]

MaddMaxx, on 10 April 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

How can you imply that which is not stated as such. The text reads no such thing for SRM's. They "lack" sophisticated guidance systems. Whereas a SSRM's is provided that sophistication.

Some people need to read.

Good catch as I was just about to point out the same exact thing. That, plus the Dev blogs on weapon convergence kind of invalidate most of the poll questions in my mind. I get the sense that the OP was trying to impress a sense of how the community feels about the applicability of Battle TT rules to MW:O; but even the Dev's have stated that some changes will be required to fully support a real-time simulated combat environment that employs a physics engine.

In example, gone are the maximum range limits to AC shells, in are a physics-based ballistics system that takes into account shell mass, velocity, and gravity. This means that pilot's who become experts with a given weapon system will be able to employ them accurately at distances greater than the BattleTech TT rules allow for... they will just have to use some "Kentucky Windage" to do so.

Edited by Ragotag, 10 April 2012 - 09:06 AM.

[BerryChunks]

MaddMaxx, on 10 April 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

How can you imply that which is not stated as such. The text reads no such thing for SRM's. They "lack" sophisticated guidance systems. Whereas a SSRM's is provided that sophistication.

Some people need to read.

some people need to reading comprehension.

"Lack sophisticated guidance" =/= "Has NO guidance system".

Some missiles use a less sophisticated guidance system that incorporates flying within the path of radar detection from your aircraft to the enemy aircraft. Imagine a cylinder of radar that goes from your aircraft to the enemy. The missile wants to stay inside this zone, and uses sensors and your radar info to do so. This missile is, however, less sophisticated than Fire and Forget or Image Recognition. If your aircraft breaks that cylinder, such as by turning away, the missile won't hit the target unless it's by luck.

Read SSRM. "Ensures missile lock to not waste ammo". The only thing SSRM does is ensure a lock before firing is allowed, in contrast to SRM. It doesn't say it has actual guidance over SRM, and there is nowhere that says SRM have no guidance.

when in doubt

Quote

A Bomb is unpowered (though they can be guided)
A Rocket is powered, but unguided.
A Missile is powered and guided.

what's the point of rocket launchers in battletech is SRMs are dumbfire? Redundant, wouldn't you say? Think.

http://www.sarna.net.../Artemis_IV_FCS

Quote

Introduced in 2598 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. The Artemis IV Fire Control System is a guidance system that utilizes an infrared laser designator and tight-beam microwave transmitter which improves the accuracy of LRMs, SRMs, and MMLs by roughly thirty-five percent.

http://www.sarna.net...Rocket_Launcher

Quote

Rocket Launchers fire a single-volley of inaccurate "dead-fire" missiles that lack on-board guidance.

Edited by BerryChunks, 10 April 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Reno Blade]

in MW3 the LRM had a slow turn rate the SRM were quite fast and the SSRM were even faster turning than SRM.
MW4 on the other hand had idiotic LRM who could turn around like hornets chasing after you!
MWLL has some nice Missiles and i like the special way for the MRM which were basicly just trying to fly where your chrosshair points (like laser guided missiles)