11 replies to this topic

[Minthos]

Assault mechs need DHS to be better to be worth wasting crit space on. Light and medium mechs need DHS to be weak eniugh to balance laser boatong.

Solution: make DHS efficiency = (1 + (chassis max tonnage / 100)) * SHS efficiency.

[PapaKilo]

They have settled on 1.4 efficiency for DHS (SHS are 1.0) at this point. They will be fixing the engine heat sink issue, and possibly might tweak the efficiency number for DHS up or down as they balance more stuff.

Having variable efficiency for any kind of heat sink would be a bad idea.

Edited by PapaKilo, 02 November 2012 - 05:52 PM.

[Minthos]

They haven't settled on it, they are testing it and will continue to evaluate it.

I agree inconsistency is bad, but when they're already departing from canon in favor of balance they might as well go all the way and do it properly.

[Firewuff]

why make them less effective for small mechs? I dont quite get it. laser boating is no more a problem than LRM boating.... that siad i do hate those speedy jenners ;-)

[PapaKilo]

lol

Having heat sinks work better on heavier designs is doing it properly??

How does that make sense?

And as I said in my first post, they have settled on 1.4 for now, and will possibly tweak it up and/or down as they balance stuff out.

[Assad]

I lack your combined knowledge on these issues. Never played table top just enjoy the old games and I am trying to enjoy this one. I can't for the life of me understand this math and the way these mechs are behaving. How does it make any sense in any universe that one can successfully equip a small mech with as many or more firepower than an Atlas? Why does the Atlas have so few hard points to mount weapons? Why are you forced to use LRM in lieu of other weapons? I've seen 4x ML arrays on light mechs. I can't successfully run that on a large mech because it lacks the slots and tonnage etc. It makes no sense. You build assault mechs BECAUSE they carry more weapons. The trade off is speed and maneuverability. The firepower is way disproportionate on the lighter mechs in my opinion. Happy to be educated on this but my sense of it is this is way off.

I am hardly a physicist but I'd LOVE to see someone break down the math on how those lighter mechs can carry so much tonnage and maintain those speeds. Its like saying that a Prius can tow the same as a Semi.

Edited by Assad, 02 November 2012 - 07:22 PM.

[TigaShark]

Assad, on 02 November 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

I lack your combined knowledge on these issues. Never played table top just enjoy the old games and I am trying to enjoy this one. I can't for the life of me understand this math and the way these mechs are behaving. How does it make any sense in any universe that one can successfully equip a small mech with as many or more firepower than an Atlas? Why does the Atlas have so few hard points to mount weapons? Why are you forced to use LRM in lieu of other weapons? I've seen 4x ML arrays on light mechs. I can't successfully run that on a large mech because it lacks the slots and tonnage etc. It makes no sense. You build assault mechs BECAUSE they carry more weapons. The trade off is speed and maneuverability. The firepower is way disproportionate on the lighter mechs in my opinion. Happy to be educated on this but my sense of it is this is way off.

I am hardly a physicist but I'd LOVE to see someone break down the math on how those lighter mechs can carry so much tonnage and maintain those speeds. Its like saying that a Prius can tow the same as a Semi.

Light mechs carry much less armor and are FAR more vulnerable to a lucky hit.

Heavy mechs DO carry more firepower 8-9 weapon hardpoints vs 4-6 on lights and have much more tonnage to play with, Heavies dont only carry more weapons, they carry heavier weapons with more ammo and more staying power.

Buy a Commando, Jenner or Raven... fit it like you said (4ML's)...and see if you enjoy shutting down in 2-3 shots in a mech which can be easily killed by some heavies in the time it takes to reactivate...or if you really want to challenge yourself, elite one of the light classes and learn about the art of balancing heat, sustainability,speed, protection and firepower with limited tonnage to play with... youll soon learn about effective fittings and get educated on lights relative capability at the same time.

As to the OP, heatsinks should all behave the same, I couldnt disagree more with the idea of including mech weight in the equation. Lights already took a hit when they enforced a 10 heatsink minimum, meaning if you use an engine which has fewer than 10 heatsinks, you now get forced to add heatsinks untill you make up the difference, which burns valuable tonnage (example, you need to add 4 HS on the Standard 150, which only comes with 6 "built in" heatsinks)

Edited by TigaShark, 02 November 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[Minthos]

TigaShark, on 02 November 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Light mechs carry much less armor and are FAR more vulnerable to a lucky hit.

Heavy mechs DO carry more firepower 8-9 weapon hardpoints vs 4-6 on lights and have much more tonnage to play with, Heavies dont only carry more weapons, they carry heavier weapons with more ammo and more staying power.

Buy a Commando, Jenner or Raven... fit it like you said (4ML's)...and see if you enjoy shutting down in 2-3 shots in a mech which can be easily killed by some heavies in the time it takes to reactivate...or if you really want to challenge yourself, elite one of the light classes and learn about the art of balancing heat, sustainability,speed, protection and firepower with limited tonnage to play with... youll soon learn about effective fittings and get educated on lights relative capability at the same time.

As to the OP, heatsinks should all behave the same, I couldnt disagree more with the idea of including mech weight in the equation. Lights already took a hit when they enforced a 10 heatsink minimum, meaning if you use an engine which has fewer than 10 heatsinks, you now get forced to add heatsinks untill you make up the difference, which burns valuable tonnage (example, you need to add 4 HS on the Standard 150, which only comes with 6 "built in" heatsinks)

Jenners already use 300XL engines, the same engine size as many Atlases. So they get their 10 built-in heat sinks which they can upgrade to double for no added weight/crit cost. Meaning with the upcoming changes, they start with a minimum of 14 heat dissipation before using any extra tons on heat sinks. With maxed armor values and 4 light lasers, they can fit a total of 18 double heat sinks for a total heat dissipation of 25.2.

An atlas with the same weapons, a standard 300 engine and maxed armor can fit 24 double heat sinks for a total 33.6 heat dissipation. Or it can fit 52 single heat sinks for 52 heat dissipation.

In a normal, reasonable setup with all the weapons and ammo an atlas needs to be useful, it will only be able to fit around 16-18 double heat sinks just like the jenner, or about 25-30 single heat sinks for slightly more heat dissipation. So in essence, double heat sinks are only useful for light/medium mechs and mechs with low heat output.

Edited by Minthos, 03 November 2012 - 04:20 AM.

[Antarius]

Minthos, on 02 November 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

They haven't settled on it, they are testing it and will continue to evaluate it.

I agree inconsistency is bad, but when they're already departing from canon in favor of balance they might as well go all the way and do it properly.

Easier said than done...

At first, in my expirience, all upgrades, so DHs too, are more effective for heavy/assault mechs than they are for lights/mediums. You have simply more tons to work with. For example

Spoiler

endosteel brings 5% max tonnage bonus for 14slots, so altas gets 5tons a jenner gets 1.5tons (exactly 1.75 but the game rounds it down).

For the point, lights mechs have more firepower... you maybe read some tuturials how to build a mech, because it couldnt be more far away from the truth.

Calcultaion example:

Spoiler

We take the tonnage of a Mech, 10% gone for structure, some for gyroscope, so we say 15% is gone without anything we can do.
For a light mech you need a big engine, your only posibility to stay alive is, dont get hit, so you have 15tons for engine (or more, only less if you use xl, but this get you killed faster by lucky shots, cause you cant fit much armor)
So you have 5.25tons for standart stuff plus 15 tons engine plus maybe 4tons armor, makes nearly 25tons of your 35tons, you got 10 tons for weapons and maybe jumpjets, amunition, heatsinks.
For an atlas you have maybe a 300engine for decent speed, 25 tons plus standart stuff 40tons plus 15tons armor, you got 45 tons for weapon and equipment.

its a to complex topic, how the diffent classes of mechs interact, to break it down to how DHs chance the dynamic between them exactly.

The biggist problem here is, that the most of the light-mech-players are veterans, cause its harder to play one and have fun (stay alive long enough), so they are mostly played by good players, this inprints the impression they are better than heavier mechs, but you would also be crashed by this players if they play a heavier mech.

I play long enough to know how easy or hard it could be to kill a light mech.

I dont belive DHs give light mechs a advantege over assaults. So keep the DHs homogene in all weight classes.

Quote

So in essence, double heat sinks are only useful for light mechs and mechs with low heat output.

.... not realy, from my own mechs i can tell you, i will builed DHs in my Jenner(if i have the C-bills) for sure, but i use them in my Awesome too. A builed with DHs, xl320, endosteel, largepuls, 2xlarge, 1xmedpuls, 3xsrm2-streak, and its heat stable enough to do serious dmg, if you have a decent heatmanagement.
And i have some tons i used on sensless much ammo, because i havent the money to get a bigger engine to build in more DHs/largepulse.
This equipment is impossible on a light mech, you would even have problems to get a only the largelasers stable.

Edited by Antarius, 03 November 2012 - 04:29 AM.

[Minthos]

Antarius, on 03 November 2012 - 04:17 AM, said:

For the point, lights mechs have more firepower... you maybe read some tuturials how to build a mech, because it couldnt be more far away from the truth.

Of couse lights don't have more firepower, and they're not supposed to. But to get higher firepower, bigger mechs need bigger weapons who generate less heat per damage. Critical slots are more valuable on larger mechs, so it makes sense that you get more tons when you trade them for weight.

Quote

i will builed DHs in my Jenner(if i have the C-bills) for sure, but i use them in my Awesome too. A builed with DHs, xl320, endosteel, largepuls, 2xlarge, 1xmedpuls, 3xsrm2-streak, and its heat stable enough to do serious dmg, if you have a decent heatmanagement.

This equipment is impossible on a light mech, you would even have problems to get a only the largelasers stable.

Large pulse: 7 tons
2x Large laser: 10 tons
Medium pulse: 2 tons
3x ssrm-2: 4.5 tons
Sum: 23.5 tons

Of course it's impossible on a jenner.

Right now DHS equal 2 SHS. With the intended changes, they will equal 1.4, and then they won't be worth using on a laser awesome.

[Lentil]

The TT rules balance specifically because ES and FF are more of a benefit for larger mechs and DHS is more of a benefit for lighter mechs.

Since ES/FF are both functions of the tonnage of the mech (or the tonnage of the armor carried), the percentage benefit means more tons are liberated for the biggest mechs. Engine weight is the same for all mechs. The engine, therefore, uses more of the usable tonnage of a light. Savings on heat sink weight are necessary to provide the necessary balance.

I can only assume that the reduced efficiency is a balance technique because energy weapons are deemed too powerful by the developers. Regardless, the upgrade for DHS needs to cost less. For a light mech that can't afford many extra heat sinks, the upgrade is equivalent to 4 heat sinks... or about 80k. Even tripling that is less than $250k. I'd rather see the individual DHS price increase, and the upgrade cost decrease.

Edited by Lentil, 03 November 2012 - 06:33 AM.

[costi]

IMHO the upgrade itself should cost as much as the DHS contained within the engine. The SHS->DHS upgrade by itself does nothing, you still need to pay the price of heatsinks, so it doesn't make any sense (especially now, when we know they don't function like in canon).
FF and endosteel upgrades are fine, since the upgrade itself gives the benefit. For the heatsink change, the upgrade itself does nothing - it's like a licence to use different stuff, and you need to buy said stuff separately anyway.