93 replies to this topic

[Sirous]

I just love how everyone was whining that DHS didn't work in the engine, though with my lack of knowledge of BattleTech, I figured thats how it was supposed to be, Engines came with 10 SHS. The doubles were just for saving weight on the rest of the Mech. While losing crit slots.

I did not realize that the doubles were supposed to work in the engine as well. When I heard that the first though I had was holy **** that will unbalance this game to no end. Honestly really first thought I had when I heard that it was supposed to work in the engine.

Sorry for all of the BT fans out there but DHS working in the engine to me does not make any sense, I don't care you won't be able to convince me otherwise.

First off they take up three times the crit slots, and magically there are Ten in the engine, Three times the space used in the same engine. At most you should only be able to fit 3 into the engine in the same amount of space that are currently used by your magic 10 HS engines. 5 if you go by the supposed 2 crit slots for Clan DHS's.

In all of the craziness that is BattleTech, as I have been studying these here rules there are many that don't make sense to someone basically looking in from the outside.

There is much that I don't understand about this world of BattleTech and MechWarrior. But take it from someone that just wants a fairly well balanced game.

I like the change to 1.4, though while talking to a few people, I assumed as much when they said they will be looking into DHS. I told them that they will probably just lower it to 1.5 or something.

Now while you are all up in arms over this here double heat sink issue, We have yet to actually test out how it will work and all the maths and speculation will not prove real world application so to speak.

Just a note on other balance changes that I would like to see.
LRM Damage reduced to 1.5, ammo increased slightly per ton to compensate.
SSRM Damage reduced to 1.5, due to homing nature of missiles.
Gauss Weight and Crit slots increased.
GaussCat move ballistics into the arms(ears).
AC/20 Heat reduced
AC/10 Heat Reduced
PPC's Heat Reduced / Hud/electronics affected by headshot.

All of these are coming from someone whose only real experience with the BT MW world was playing Mechwarrior 3 for a month or two. While I don't know what the world is about I do know when things are slightly off kilter.

Edited by Sirous, 02 November 2012 - 09:26 PM.

[w00tzor]

1.4 heat dissipation DHS would kill DHS and laserboats/big energy guns ( like PPC, ERPPC, LL, LPL). You haven't mentioned they're going to RAISE the heat of all pulse lasers and small lasers, killing them even more 'cause of higher heat generation/lower heat dissipation with DHS. Laserboats at the moment aren't a viable choice as brawlers or optimized builds because of the huge heat issue that are in game now.

DHS was supposed to be the hammer that could have smashed the heat problem, but with 1.4 HD and 3 CS at the price of 1.5m this will never happen.

Less lasers+more heat= less variety on gameplay basis, that's means we will all play gausscats/gaussphracts/LRMboats in our games.

-w-

[CompproB237]

Any additional Heat Sinks are exposed to the Critical system and can be disabled (critically hit). Double Heat Sinks using 3 crit slots has a much higher chance of being destroyed than a Single Heat Sink's 1 Crit. This is where the balancing is presented. For the same weight you get a higher heat threshold and more efficient cooling... For 3 more crit slot usage. You also cannot put them in the legs of almost all 'Mechs which provides the ability for Water to dramatically increase the heatsink's efficiency. The 'Mech would require being up to the Chest in water to utilize Water on Double Heat Sinks. The upgrade is also very costly (1.5 million C-Bills).

We're going to leave Clan Technology out of this for now as it's 3049 in the game's storyline and Clan technology "isn't out yet".

There's a reason that in the Battletech Lore Double Heat Sinks became a sort of "standard" on mechs. Their only downside is size (3 crit slots), vulnerability (3 crit slots... again) and inability to place in legs for use in water (situational).

I posted about Heat Sinks in a Beta Forum thread. I'll simply quote Sarna.net:

Quote

engine-mounted heat sinks constitute a "regenerative cooling" system that scavenges excess heat for power.

Heat sinks are made of a number of materials. Traditional heat sinks, the so-called single strength heat sinks, typically use radiators made of very thermally conductive oriented graphite (which may have up to five times the thermal conductivity of copper). Double heat sinks have largely replaced normal heat sinks. They dissipate twice as much heat for the same tonnage, but take up more space to operate effectively because of their use of a crystalline polymer. This polymer, similar to the engine shielding of XL fusion engines [3], is not as thermally conductive as graphite but significantly lighter and more durable, allowing it to be formed into a larger radiator for the same mass.

Side note: Currently (as stated by the Devs) the Double Heat Sinks added to an engine are still acting as a Single Heat Sink and they will be fixing this in the November 6th Patch.

Edited by CompproB237, 02 November 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[SRRaleigh]

Sirous, on 02 November 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Sorry for all of the BT fans out there but DHS working in the engine to me does not make any sense, I don't care you won't be able to convince me otherwise.

Then there really is no reason to talk to you about it, or even for you to post about it is there?

[GrimDeath]

Sirous, on 02 November 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

I don't care you won't be able to convince me otherwise.

Stopped reading there.

[n00bfish]

The problem with DHS in TT was that they were not remotely balanced with SHS -- they were effectively ALWAYS better than SHS. (Clan DHS were literally always better than SHS.) That's why BV was needed, because on a per mech level it was ALWAYS better to have DHS in TT.

MWO is trying to make the same game system into a competitive FPS. That's a bit like trying to squeeze a square peg in a round hole. I for one tend to agree with PGI that some degree of nerf to DHS is necessary to make SHS a competitive choice. Last thing I want to see is the 'upgrades' become necessary to be competitive -- and/or that the only people who can seriously compete be paying players who can afford to repair / rearm mechs fully loaded to the brim with level 2 tech.

Let's wait till next week to see how it plays. We can set down the torches and pitchforks for now. Just my two cents.

[Sirous]

SRRaleigh, on 02 November 2012 - 10:10 PM, said:

Then there really is no reason to talk to you about it, or even for you to post about it is there?

And that is why I threw it in there. There are many things that can be overlooked in this world of BattleTech. This one has me thrown for a loop, How can something that is three times the size magically work where normal heat sinks were and not add anything else, If they came out and said that if you want to go double than you must use more criticals to compensate for the added size of the engines. No the only real drawback is the crits on any extra heatsinks that you use. Has noone questioned this, or is it just the way its always been so we must go with it.

I would like to also toss out there,that any little change to any weapon or piece of equipment, changes the critical space or tonnage on a mech except for these Magical Double heat sinks in the engine. Just about everything has a compromise besides price, except DHS in the engine. And Clan tech but that is a whole other issue.

Edited by Sirous, 02 November 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

n00bfish, on 02 November 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

The problem with DHS in TT was that they were not remotely balanced with SHS -- they were effectively ALWAYS better than SHS. (Clan DHS were literally always better than SHS.) That's why BV was needed, because on a per mech level it was ALWAYS better to have DHS in TT.

MWO is trying to make the same game system into a competitive FPS. That's a bit like trying to squeeze a square peg in a round hole. I for one tend to agree with PGI that some degree of nerf to DHS is necessary to make SHS a competitive choice. Last thing I want to see is the 'upgrades' become necessary to be competitive -- and/or that the only people who can seriously compete be paying players who can afford to repair / rearm mechs fully loaded to the brim with level 2 tech.

Let's wait till next week to see how it plays. We can set down the torches and pitchforks for now. Just my two cents.

How many mechs were in the game pre-dubs? Not a lot.
How many live and die by their dubs, and have been since dubs were added as a common piece of gear? The large majority.

There's nothing wrong with patching a flaw in your game system.

[Josef Nader]

You're forgiven for your mistake, as in your eyes PPCs, ER lasers, and pulse lasers have always been terrible, useless weapons that nobody would ever bring into a fight for any reason ever. These are all weapons I used to enjoy using in previous iterations, so I'm feeling more than a little salty about them getting completely nerfed out of existence.

[Sirous]

Josef Nader, on 02 November 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:

You're forgiven for your mistake, as in your eyes PPCs, ER lasers, and pulse lasers have always been terrible, useless weapons that nobody would ever bring into a fight for any reason ever. These are all weapons I used to enjoy using in previous iterations, so I'm feeling more than a little salty about them getting completely nerfed out of existence.

Yes they all need a little help, though with everything else there is either a weight, heat or crit slot compromise reached with them except for Engine Double heat sinks. No they are just magically doubles and if you need that advantage to make these weapons useful, which is a shame. PPC's and ER Larges are almost useless at the moment, though adding DHS will make these somewhat useful, the unintended consequence will be felt through lights up to Assaults. By making these weapons feasible by adding extra heat dissipation, you add extra heat dissipation across the board. Any good light or Medium Pilot will be loving this change if it goes back to a value of 2.

Fix the weapons themselves, is what needs to be done, not adding a mechanic that at first glance by me only saw something that totally seems unbalanced in the whole of the battletech universe. How is it that they are three times bigger and yet don't need to add any extra crit slots to the engine in order to accomplish that task.

[Josef Nader]

Sirous, on 02 November 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

Yes they all need a little help, though with everything else there is either a weight, heat or crit slot compromise reached with them except for Engine Double heat sinks. No they are just magically doubles and if you need that advantage to make these weapons useful, which is a shame. PPC's and ER Larges are almost useless at the moment, though adding DHS will make these somewhat useful, the unintended consequence will be felt through lights up to Assaults. By making these weapons feasible by adding extra heat dissipation, you add extra heat dissipation across the board. Any good light or Medium Pilot will be loving this change if it goes back to a value of 2.

Fix the weapons themselves, is what needs to be done, not adding a mechanic that at first glance by me only saw something that totally seems unbalanced in the whole of the battletech universe. How is it that they are three times bigger and yet don't need to add any extra crit slots to the engine in order to accomplish that task.

Out of curiosity, what's your favorite weight class?

Yes, lights and mediums would benefit greatly from DHS working properly. They'd be able to mount much more serious firepower. I'm not complaining. My favorite light mech is the Adder, which mounts 2 Clan ERPPCs and nothing else, and has enough heat efficiency to make them viable, even if it does run hot as hell.

However, as an Assault pilot, I -desparately- need DHS to work properly. in-engine DHS MAKE my mechs viable. With all the weapons I have on my mech, heat is a very, very serious concern at all times. I don't have the speed to escape a fight to cool down. Once I'm in the thick of it, I'm stuck there for the long haul. I currently mount 22 SHS on my build. With DHS working properly, I get a free 20 from adding them to my engine, which is a big, big thing. Adding an extra 3-4 for no crit slots is also huge, bringing me up to 26-28 heat sinks worth of cooling for no crit slots (which I need a lot more than tonnage in an Assault. Big guns eat up crit slots like nobody's business, as do weight-saving tools I could use to pack more SHS on my mechs. Throw in another one or two DHS wherever they fit, and I have a mech that can stick out a fight with far fewer heat concerns. With the current implementation, 13 DHS in the engine equal 18 SHS. Add 2-3 more where I can cram them brings me up to 22.4... -exactly the freaking same as single heat sinks for 1.5 million extra c-bills-. My only savings are in tonnage. Whoop-de-freaking-do. I have 100 tons to play with. Tonnage is -not- a concern. Heat efficiency is.

As it stands, we're much better off just -not- running Atlases, as it's much better to have the speed to run away and cool down than make yourself a huge target with bad DPS just so you can use low-heat weapons and not have to stress about heat.

[mike29tw]

People actually think PGI can make a competitive multiplayer game with BT DHS value?

LOL

Russ said it in an interview. They don't want this game to become an arm race. They want to make the game as skillful and competitive as possible, so of course lots of the BT value is gonna get changed.

[Sirous]

Josef Nader, on 02 November 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

Out of curiosity, what's your favorite weight class?

Yes, lights and mediums would benefit greatly from DHS working properly. They'd be able to mount much more serious firepower. I'm not complaining. My favorite light mech is the Adder, which mounts 2 Clan ERPPCs and nothing else, and has enough heat efficiency to make them viable, even if it does run hot as hell.

However, as an Assault pilot, I -desparately- need DHS to work properly. in-engine DHS MAKE my mechs viable. With all the weapons I have on my mech, heat is a very, very serious concern at all times. I don't have the speed to escape a fight to cool down. Once I'm in the thick of it, I'm stuck there for the long haul. I currently mount 22 SHS on my build. With DHS working properly, I get a free 20 from adding them to my engine, which is a big, big thing. Adding an extra 3-4 for no crit slots is also huge, bringing me up to 26-28 heat sinks worth of cooling for no crit slots (which I need a lot more than tonnage in an Assault. Big guns eat up crit slots like nobody's business, as do weight-saving tools I could use to pack more SHS on my mechs. Throw in another one or two DHS wherever they fit, and I have a mech that can stick out a fight with far fewer heat concerns. With the current implementation, 13 DHS in the engine equal 18 SHS. Add 2-3 more where I can cram them brings me up to 22.4... -exactly the freaking same as single heat sinks for 1.5 million extra c-bills-. My only savings are in tonnage. Whoop-de-freaking-do. I have 100 tons to play with. Tonnage is -not- a concern. Heat efficiency is.

As it stands, we're much better off just -not- running Atlases, as it's much better to have the speed to run away and cool down than make yourself a huge target with bad DPS just so you can use low-heat weapons and not have to stress about heat.

Catapult and Jenner mostly,
Desperately want the PPC to be better, than my Dual PPC Dual AC/5 cat can fire with impunity. Ran a GaussCat thought it was too easy. Would love to build a PPC Awesome that I didn't have to worry about overheating as well.
Though I do like the 2 LL 4 ML AWS-8Q. Currently my commando killing machine Founders Hunchback Stock except for Endo and DHS extra ton of ammo and AMS. I understand that the Assaults need DHS to work.
I also know that adding all that extra heat dissipation will make Jenners even more of a menace then they are now, I know because I run one frequently and with the current doubles Heat is rarely an issue except on caustic.
I also get that PGI's current formula may not work. While I understand all of that, I never expected the DHS to work in the engine.

No one can say why though that the DHS magically work in the engine without any other real compromise. The three extra crit slots that are taken up by the extra heatsinks make sense. If they said you go DHS now you have to add Two more Crits to the sides that would make sense. Something anything besides that they magically work where only a 250 or higher could fit 10HS before.

[trycksh0t]

Sirous, on 02 November 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

Yes they all need a little help, though with everything else there is either a weight, heat or crit slot compromise reached with them except for Engine Double heat sinks. No they are just magically doubles and if you need that advantage to make these weapons useful, which is a shame. PPC's and ER Larges are almost useless at the moment, though adding DHS will make these somewhat useful, the unintended consequence will be felt through lights up to Assaults. By making these weapons feasible by adding extra heat dissipation, you add extra heat dissipation across the board. Any good light or Medium Pilot will be loving this change if it goes back to a value of 2.

Fix the weapons themselves, is what needs to be done, not adding a mechanic that at first glance by me only saw something that totally seems unbalanced in the whole of the battletech universe. How is it that they are three times bigger and yet don't need to add any extra crit slots to the engine in order to accomplish that task.

See, the issue here is you're trying to equate critical slots to physical size..it has nothing to do with physical anything. If it did, there is no way a Commando could carry the same amount of equipment as an Atlas, but according to BattleTech rules it can. It is nothing more than a balancing mechanic.

As for fixing the weapons, we've been waiting MONTHS for that to happen, and it was never even hinted at. Actually, the PPC was made WORSE at one point with a RoF increase...so you can overheat faster. Sure, DHS would allow Jenners to run around with massed lasers, they would also allow an AWS-9M to punch 'em in the face with 3 ERPPCs...repeatedly. DHS would let a -K2 Catapult actually be a -K2 Catapult in all it's charged particle death dealing glory. The only thing the 1.4 heatsinks accomplish is making builds that boat low-heat weapons the kings of MWO because they're the only 'Mechs with sustainable damage output.

[Vassago Rain]

mike29tw, on 02 November 2012 - 11:39 PM, said:

People actually think PGI can make a competitive multiplayer game with BT DHS value?

LOL

Russ said it in an interview. They don't want this game to become an arm race. They want to make the game as skillful and competitive as possible, so of course lots of the BT value is gonna get changed.

But it's already an arm's race.

[Khobai]

Quote

People actually think PGI can make a competitive multiplayer game with BT DHS value?

Absolutely. The whole problem is that heat neutrality is being skewed as a bad thing. Yet many tabletop designs are based on having enough heatsinks that they can fire all their weapons constantly and NEVER overheat. For whatever reason PGI is completely obsessed with the idea of everyone's mechs running hot and constantly overheating and its hurting the game. Half the weapons arn't even useable because they run so hot.

Edited by Khobai, 03 November 2012 - 12:01 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Sirous, on 02 November 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

Yes they all need a little help, though with everything else there is either a weight, heat or crit slot compromise reached with them except for Engine Double heat sinks. No they are just magically doubles and if you need that advantage to make these weapons useful, which is a shame. PPC's and ER Larges are almost useless at the moment, though adding DHS will make these somewhat useful, the unintended consequence will be felt through lights up to Assaults. By making these weapons feasible by adding extra heat dissipation, you add extra heat dissipation across the board. Any good light or Medium Pilot will be loving this change if it goes back to a value of 2.

Fix the weapons themselves, is what needs to be done, not adding a mechanic that at first glance by me only saw something that totally seems unbalanced in the whole of the battletech universe. How is it that they are three times bigger and yet don't need to add any extra crit slots to the engine in order to accomplish that task.

Those weapons are mostly reliant on doubles to function. That's how they were even brought into existence. Because 20 some years ago, they decided the game was too slow with 10 'heat points' for everything, so you could suddenly double your 10 to 20, and add a lot more very easily, so you could shoot your big, fancy, new laserguns more times, or use way bigger ones.

That PGI ported the tech system, but didn't do 1+1=2, is just silly.

In the source game, as old as it is, a 'proper' mech would have like 24 heat points. There are *gasp* ER PPC snipers that are designed to stand and shoot all their guns every single turn, for the whole game, without stopping, or eer adding heat.

They are 'neutral' mechs, producing only as much as they can take.

[mike29tw]

Vassago Rain, on 02 November 2012 - 11:46 PM, said:

But it's already an arm's race.

So they're trying to correct that, and in the process only more TT value is going to be changed.

IMO the whole heat balance was quite alright after they introduced DHS. Of course high-end energy weapon always has sucked, so maybe they should keep engine HS single and just buff PPC/ERPPC straight up. Now that all DHS value is changed, and pulse weapons are generating more heat, energy weapon balance is going to be a mess and getting them back to original balance will take more time.

At some point in the future, they have to straight up buff ERPPC/PPC. Bring them back in line with gauss with heat overhaul will inevitably cause boating low-end energy OP.

Khobai, on 02 November 2012 - 11:55 PM, said:

Absolutely. The whole problem is that heat neutrality is being skewed as a bad thing. Yet many tabletop designs are based on having enough heatsinks that they can fire all their weapons constantly and NEVER overheat. For whatever reason PGI is completely obsessed with the idea of everyone's mechs running hot and constantly overheating and its hurting the game. Half the weapons arn't even useable because they run so hot.

Maybe you wanna look at Mechwarrior Tactics. You know, a Mechwarrior game that is turn based, exactly like TT?

The moment battle become real time, TT balance should be thrown outta window. Yes stock designs are running too hot, but let's be honest, who runs stock design on their own mech anyway? The only one running stock designs are new players in trial mech, and that's a whole different matter to deal with.

Edited by mike29tw, 03 November 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

mike29tw, on 03 November 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

So they're trying to correct that, and in the process only more TT value is going to be changed.

IMO the whole heat balance was quite alright after they introduced DHS. Of course high-end energy weapon always has sucked, so maybe they should keep engine HS single and just buff PPC/ERPPC straight up. Now that all DHS value is changed, and pulse weapons are generating more heat, energy weapon balance is going to be a mess and getting them back to original balance will take more time.

At some point in the future, they have to straight up buff ERPPC/PPC. Bring them back in line with gauss with heat overhaul will inevitably cause boating low-end energy OP.

They're not trying to correct it, but trying really hard to make sure we don't use too many lasers, when we could use ammo-hungry gauss and missiles.

[Khobai]

Well the reason is laser boats. DHS make laser boats much more effective. But instead of punishing every single mech build by nerfing DHS, they need to focus primarily on punishing laser boats.