76 replies to this topic

[DrBunji]

Now, I have my own opinion about this, but rather than standing on a soapbox and screaming it along with mixed profanities, I figured I'd ask to see if anyone else agrees with me.

Hypothesis; the jenner is overpowered.

Arguemtation:
Lets start with an appeal to emotion(isch), when running my cicada and I spot a commando or a raven I usually ditch my current target since they are usually faster and easier to drop. In comparison, if I see a Jenner I usually feel like running away.

With the ability to mount 6 MLs he will match me laser for laser in damage output, but he will beat me in spead, and have jumpjets on that - his hitbox is also alot smaller.

If I am in any other mech than my cicada I'll feel like throwing up my hands and surrendering when a jenner comes for me. In a 1v1 fight the Jenner will almost always win, no matter how bad the pilot actually is. All he has to do is run in a circle and keep firing, the lag-shield will take care of any incoming fire.

And if you find that you are being zeroed in with lasers, just run through the enemy mech' and laugh as he tries to turn and face you.

I guess the most compelling argument for that jenners are overpowered is the sheer amount of them you see, I had a game where I faced 5 jenners; it wasn't funny.

[Fiatsu]

Learn how to kill one, nuff said.

[Vassago Rain]

Fiatsu, on 15 November 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Learn how to kill one, nuff said.

It's not that simple. As long as the jenner is moving, damage just disappears. You have to get them at the precise angle, or lagshields negate all your efforts.

[CygnusX7]

DrBunji, on 15 November 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

In a 1v1 fight the Jenner will almost always win, no matter how bad the pilot actually is. All he has to do is run in a circle and keep firing, the lag-shield will take care of any incoming fire.

I thought I was really bad but from what you're saying I'm really really bad at this.

Edited by CygnusX7, 15 November 2012 - 07:56 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Fiatsu, on 15 November 2012 - 07:53 AM, said:

Learn how to kill one, nuff said.

I call in close range fire support.. Ie Swayback!

[AlexEss]

Lag-shield is not anything that is specific to the Jenner...

Apart from that yes it is pretty much working as intended. The Jenner is a light harraser designed for hit and run and guerilla tactics and it packs a serious punch for a mech it's size.

That being said it is still a light mech and as a Cicada pilot you can very easy keep up speed wise and pack the same amount of weapons but with more tons of plate.

[Vermaxx]

They can't be tripped. When collisions come back in, and DHS is boosted to default (so heavies and assaults actually benefit like the Jenner), and the netcode is cleaned up a little more people will stop using them as much.

Collisions alone would cut down on them, since I could trip them for people who can actually aim.

[Revorn]

Anything that is faster then 84, is OP or call it Broken, imho.

[Leetskeet]

It's the best light mech and light mechs become half invincible with the netcode. You have to guess at the air in front of them to try to find out where they really are on the server. 95% of the time, you're not going to magically keep your crosshair on top of their server hitbox, and you're just going to get bits and pieces of the damage to register.

I still hold firm that light mechs are going to get absolutely trashed if they ever fix the netcode and Cryengine'***** detection. It is not hard to hit something that you can actually see.

[wanderer]

Jenners aren't broken. Lag shielding is the broken part of the equation.

Closed beta players will remember the pre-engine-limit Commando.

We had them going so fast the game engine would literally blink the 'Mech so fast that unless you knocked one down or for some reason it stood still...you weren't hitting them with anything save Streaks.

As it is, you pretty much need a straight-on shot at a Jenner at top speed to get solid hits, as lateral movement means your shot is either going to be sprayed all over the place to inflict damage, you figure out the precise spot where the Jenner ACTUALLY is, or someone else gets a dead-on shot as it rounds a curve and actually hits it for you.

Lack of collisions + lagshield = gawd mode for fast 'Mechs.

[Krivvan]

It depends on your ping. Anything under 80 ms on both ends or so and you can hit it right where you see it, the lagshield doesn't help. Anything over and you'll have to compensate for the lag. And for those with 18 ms (I have a friend that has an average ping of that) there are no netcode problems whatsoever.

Also, the Cicada can reach the same speed as the Jenner, so wouldn't the Cicada also be able to just circle strafe around everything with impunity?

Edited by Krivvan, 15 November 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[wanderer]

Krivvan, on 15 November 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

It depends on your ping. Anything under 80 ms on both ends or so and you can hit it right where you see it, the lagshield doesn't help. Anything over and you'll have to compensate for the lag.

Also, the Cicada can reach the same speed as the Jenner, so wouldn't the Cicada also be able to just circle strafe around everything with impunity?

Nah. I've got 50-60 ms ping, and I've watched my laser fire hitting (and showing hit effects on the model) while dealing zero damage to the light in question.

[Krivvan]

wanderer, on 15 November 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

Nah. I've got 50-60 ms ping, and I've watched my laser fire hitting (and showing hit effects on the model) while dealing zero damage to the light in question.

I average 50 - 70 ms ping and I don't need to fire in the air to hit it. That said, if I want to aim at a component on a fast mech I'll have to shoot slightly ahead, but still on the mech itself. And as evidence I have every single video I've ever uploaded to youtube.

Although I did have to shoot in the air in the last patch with their failed attempt at lag compensation.

Edited by Krivvan, 15 November 2012 - 08:04 AM.

[Jadel Blade]

I kill lots of jenners, commandos,ravens and cicadas. The longest kills are ravens the easiest commandos. Jenners arent usually that hard but I guess they are the hardest of those 4.

I run mid 250 ping and pilot a Jenner.

Do you net code conspiracy theorists claim that being in the bubble makes it easier to kill things in the bubble?

[Culler]

You shouldn't be having trouble with jenners in a properly equipped cicada. You both have the same max speed, you have more armor and a slightly better turning radius, he has jump jets. It pretty much comes down to pilot skill. If he's foolish enough to use his jumpjets, wait and alpha just when he touches back down, as he will be slow at that moment and it will be easy to get a solid alpha into a part of your choosing as well as getting behind him.

The disadvantage is in your head.

Now as far as lights/extremely fast mediums punching above their weight class goes, the blame there goes to bad netcode making them at times impossible to hit and the lack of knockdowns. When both those things get fixed, 120+ kph mechs will be reasonable again.

[Lootee]

Your tactics are broken.

You should be aiming low and leading the lighter mechs to hit their legs. You have the advantage simply because your mech is heavier and can mount more leg armor than any light mech.

So in a battle of attrition they will lose their leg armor before you do. Unless they are suicidal, light bugs usually flee once you get a leg down to internals.

Legs are by far the easiest part on small mechs to lag shoot. Because you have no idea where your shots are hitting on a lagshielded light, ALWAYS aim low. They only have 2 legs, if you lead correctly you either hit the right leg or left leg, nothing else. If you aim at the torsos you just spread damage to CT RT LT HD RA LA RCT RRT RLT. 9 possible hit locations vs 2. See how that works ?

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 15 November 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Krivvan, on 15 November 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

I average 50 - 70 ms ping and I don't need to fire in the air to hit it. That said, if I want to aim at a component on a fast mech I'll have to shoot slightly ahead, but still on the mech itself. And as evidence I have every single video I've ever uploaded to youtube.

Although I did have to shoot in the air in the last patch with their failed attempt at lag compensation.

You're in Canada. I'm in Sweden-
I need to play this game precisely like I would play mechwarrior 3 over 56k modem, or I can't hit lights.

[Critical Fumble]

I once had a Jenner pilot say to me "lol @ cicada, such unfair maneuverability for a comparably heavier chassis".

He said this to me in my CDA-3C, with a single large laser and four MGs.

Had there been time to reply, I would have said "lol @ jenner, such unfair firepower for a comparably lighter chassis".

I don't think that nerfing them is the right choice though, because, well:
Brace yourselves, knockdown is coming!

[Krivvan]

Vassago Rain, on 15 November 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

You're in Canada. I'm in Sweden-
I need to play this game precisely like I would play mechwarrior 3 over 56k modem, or I can't hit lights.

I know, I wasn't saying "it's fine because everyone should have low ping". I was saying that with a low ping the problem is much less noticeable and that one might want to compensate based on the ping of both themselves and their opponents.

Culler, on 15 November 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

If he's foolish enough to use his jumpjets, wait and alpha just when he touches back down, as he will be slow at that moment and it will be easy to get a solid alpha into a part of your choosing as well as getting behind him.

Jump jets aren't always a bad idea in duels. Most people simply let themselves fall with jump jets which causes the second of standing still upon landing. If you feather the jump right then you will maintain the same forward momentum that you had in the air and you won't stop moving. If you need more fuel for a higher jump and can't spare any for a proper landing, then it helps to land behind cover where you have a couple seconds to accelerate.

[Leetskeet]

Krivvan, on 15 November 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

It depends on your ping. Anything under 80 ms on both ends or so and you can hit it right where you see it, the lagshield doesn't help. Anything over and you'll have to compensate for the lag. And for those with 18 ms (I have a friend that has an average ping of that) there are no netcode problems whatsoever.

Also, the Cicada can reach the same speed as the Jenner, so wouldn't the Cicada also be able to just circle strafe around everything with impunity?

Bull crap.

I have a ping of <60 and I have to lead 130kph+ mechs by about 4 mech lengths and I even have to aim at side torsos of 48-64kph strafing mechs to hit their center torso most of the time. It's not a ping issue.

Link me one of your videos where you're shooting directly at a light and having damage register.

I constantly, and I mean constantly, have multiple alphas completely not register on people that have shut down. Atlases, Hunchbacks, whatever, doesn't register. I constantly have to annihilate the beautiful air in front of lights to get bits of damage to register, and it's an inconsistent spot so it's a complete guess every time I shoot. I constantly have to shoot at the air just in front of slower mechs if they're moving at a perpendicular angle.

There are tons and tons of videos showing this on youtube. I could even record a match if you want.

Edited by Leetskeet, 15 November 2012 - 08:11 AM.