22 replies to this topic

[GoodVindicator]

Right now every mech which loads tons of SSRM2 launchers have easy victory vs not SSRM2 abusers. Ammo cost is not an issue as you receive 75% ammo every mission for free. Why use lasers at all then you can just push button to hit CT almost 98% of the time? Game is becomes the battle of 2 weapons pulse lasers and ssrm2s - all other weapons seems inferior right now.I dont get why make mech customization at all if you can buy mech variants or why inner sphere mech is so easily customized.

Edited by GoodVindicator, 01 November 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[Helmer]

I recall a post in the now Archived Beta forums stating that the Developers were looking into changing the Streak mechanic so that it may lock onto other areas of an enemy 'mech. Not just Center Torso.



Cheers.

[Joe Luck]

I feel the streak should also act a bit like LRMS. You have to keep a focused lock. Right now It's pretty much fire and forget. They way LRMs use to be. This will give more importance to such things as narc and tag.

[Zen Hachetaki]

I agree Streaks are fire and forget once u get the first lock - it is damn tough to obtain on anything fast anyway. BUT - they need to do a "True" scatter per TT rules, no reason they nuke any part in particular since they are "target" locked, not "location" locked. SRMs period need more scatter - as both their curse and blessing.

SRMs we used to use to get crits - fire your PPC and then find internals with srms (see Panther), even the reg ones are tightly grouped. LRMs did their damage in gruop of 5 pts at least (tighter focus). SRMs now are the hole punchers, especially the damn Streaks at coring CTs 90% of the time (yes, I pilot a Jenner and Streak cats are the only thing I respect - besides other Jenners).

[bmulkshake]

I pilot an Awesome with 4 SSRM 2s and 3 med lasers. usually get at least one or two kills per round.
this weapon takes skill to use just like all the others. If you don't lead them on a moving target you'll likely miss. It's still hard to hit a fast moving target unless he's moving directly away from you etc etc. Also, it's not the most powerful of weapons so you still have to have enough piloting skills to stay alive long enough to core your enemy, especially Atlases. And, since I'm a close range brawler I live in fear of LRMs. Why is it so unrealistic to have a fire and forget weapon? Our military uses them today (check out the latest version of the hellfire that the apache uses).
if any weapon is way too easy to use it's the gauss. People use this as a sniper type weapon but don't need any of the skills a sniper has (steady breathing, calculating windage, gravity, heat thermals etc).

[Butane9000]

Helmer, on 01 November 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

I recall a post in the now Archived Beta forums stating that the Developers were looking into changing the Streak mechanic so that it may lock onto other areas of an enemy 'mech. Not just Center Torso.



Cheers.

They did indeed say this, no idea on when it will be implemented though.

[Lee]

bmulkshake, on 02 November 2012 - 10:33 AM, said:

I pilot an Awesome with 4 SSRM 2s and 3 med lasers. usually get at least one or two kills per round.
this weapon takes skill to use just like all the others. If you don't lead them on a moving target you'll likely miss. It's still hard to hit a fast moving target unless he's moving directly away from you etc etc. Also, it's not the most powerful of weapons so you still have to have enough piloting skills to stay alive long enough to core your enemy, especially Atlases. And, since I'm a close range brawler I live in fear of LRMs. Why is it so unrealistic to have a fire and forget weapon? Our military uses them today (check out the latest version of the hellfire that the apache uses).
if any weapon is way too easy to use it's the gauss. People use this as a sniper type weapon but don't need any of the skills a sniper has (steady breathing, calculating windage, gravity, heat thermals etc).

Their critical weakness also being that you're stuck with them honing in on the CT, rather than hitting those sweet XL side torsos.

I have not experienced this 'fire and forget' feature of my SSRM2s. If you move your reticule an inch or two away from your target, you lose lock. That makes firing a bit tricky when you're trying to zap with lasers, lead with gauss, and lock with SSRMs.

IMO, anyone getting owned by streak cats need to rethink their strategy and NOT rush a Catapult until they know it is an LRM boat. Otherwise, it's the pilot's own fault for rushing head-long into a streak or SRM catapult.

[Ginoxy]

It is a little bit strange SSRM where discriped in Battletech as standart SRMs with look on for each shot.
If the Luncher has a perfect Look on, than you can only start the missiles and all of them hit (minus AMS). If the luncher has no look on the weapon can not be fired.
A Corralation to current a weapon is the Sidewinder Missiles. Only If you have a Missile look than you can fire.
But I have the felling that some one has misunderstud this and has fergotten to read the weapondiscription. So he has made the perfect "smart"- "Fire and Forget"-Missile with selectiv Location seeker!
So why we still play other Mech? Let us play ony FFM Boats. Than it is only imported who hit frist the trigger.
The Tabletop players made 30 years of ruletesting, but such a rule mistake was never happend so long I have played it. Ok, Bryan tried sometimes to run thru water Hexes, but using SSRM as FFMs was never happend.
If you have no Total Warfare or TechManual, I think Catalyst GameLab will give you one version for free. If you ask them nicely.
If you have one, look in the weapondiscription and the gaming rules and change the Streaks to a not so "smart" weapon.

And for people who think to look in to current weapon arsenal one thing a Thermal Warhead of an Side winder has only 0,5 kg TNT that is less then a AP Mine. but the missel has a size of 3 meter and a wight of 80kg and cost 85.000$, A SRM Luncher has 100 Missils with 10kg each and a price of 5.400$ (1$=0.5C-Bills). And Avionic for a Sidewinder is nesseccery as well. And this cost are close to 300.000$ an wight 300kg. And each SRM must have the same destructiv energy like a MG or AC2. So how smart is the SRM ... a 10kg Missile with less than 50cm lenght and a mean diameter of 30cm with Rocketengine for 10sec. flight, a exposiv warhead more distructiv energy like a 9kg JCM Anti Tank Warhead, target ditection, wing control servos, Ground follow radar, and ECM shielding, etc. And everything must so stable that it dosent explode by shacking and/or extrem heat! The SRM are better than every thing a modern army has to offer!
A similar ground to ground weapon are the M47 Dragon Missile, but it wights 15kg and it is single fire, wire controlled by Human! Or as Air to Ground Missile the Hellfire but there are only Semi-Fire-an-Forget-Missils. the Hellfire 2 is a FFM but it need a Longbow Radar to find there target so it need look on time for programming the Hellfire with direcion, radar signatur and distance. If you fire it with out guidence it look on on every radar reflecting target in LOS. It dosent matter freind or not, for this the hellfire need 2,2sec.. One Hellfire 2 wights 47kg / 9kg Exposiv and each Missile cost ca 66.000$ (the US Army has only 24000 Missile of the Typ Hellfire 2, that is equal to 240t SRM Ammo!).
If you want load SSRM Luncher with JCM or Hellfire missils than pay the right prize for and that are: your luncher / Mech must have a active Longbow Radar (you need a LOS) for Look on and you have only 10 Missils per tonne (this are 5 shots). If you want to shot with out guidence you have a minimum range for the missils of 2.2sec x 425 m/s = 935m and each mech who is in shortes LOS will be hit, but than in a random location for each missile.
Oh and than I want a Goalkeeper CIWS in my Hunchback. It replace the AC20. But than 90% of all Missile in a diameter of 2.000m will be distroyed by this system!

So, please don´t look at the current technologies. Battletech ist a fiction written by people who want to make a funny tabletop and rpg game. Thay have written rulse and dirsription of weapon for this fiction and tried to balance this. So this rule and discription are the importend things and not the reallity. That is the reason why the developer has to follow this roles and not that on. The rule for SSRM are over 25 Years old and there are tested and balanced in millions of games by thousends of player. There were discussed before some of the flamers/cheaters/"Maldoro tuner" has been born or had know something about Battletech.
If I will be killed by the rules it is Ok. But, to be killed by misunderstanding of Use Cases bases on easy to understanding rules und bad programming is not Ok, because that is than not Battletech.
So. please you Programmers and Gamedeveloper checked the weapondiscription and looked into your functiones and codes.
Asked yourself, did you really want to make the Classic Battletech Mechwarrior game or did you want to make another shooter covered as mechsimulation which is so fare a way from Classic Battletech, like Battletech from Doom was.

For myself I want to play a Mech Simulation as close as possible to the Classic Battletech Universe, for this I have paid and I would pay more in the future.
I don´t want an other WOT or CoD with MechMods, which are looks like a Battletech. For Battletech I bought in the laster 30 Years Figures, Book, Novels, Maps, CCG, etc. for over 5.000$. And I thing every Player or Fan of Battletech paid a simular amount for there collection.

[Gremlich Johns]

Joe Luck, on 02 November 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

I feel the streak should also act a bit like LRMS. You have to keep a focused lock. Right now It's pretty much fire and forget. They way LRMs use to be. This will give more importance to such things as narc and tag.

That's why there are streaks (self trackers) and regular SRMs (you need a lock and hold). And the SSRAMs do not always hit, I've missed when shooting lights hauling @$$. I do wish they could target where you placed your reticle upon, though.

[TigaShark]

Joe Luck, on 02 November 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

I feel the streak should also act a bit like LRMS. You have to keep a focused lock. Right now It's pretty much fire and forget. They way LRMs use to be. This will give more importance to such things as narc and tag.

You havnt used streaks or you wouldnt have posted this comment.

Streaks require a constant lock or you cant fire them

SRM's are like "dumb rockets" they require manual aiming with no lock on or homing capability, for practical purposes they behave like autocannons... or in this case, the LB 10-X AC (they are both manually aimed scatter like a shotgun)

SSRM's are like Radar guided missiles, they require a continual lock on from firing to impact or they lose lock and miss. However the flight time is relatively short. Additionally you need a lock to even fire them.

LRM's are also like Radar Guided missiles in MWO (must maintain lock to hit), but with the added capability of being able to lob over terrain and having their accuracy enhanced even further by a teammate using a TAG on the target. LRM's also have area of effect due to the number of missiles fired (LRM5=5 missiles, LRM20=20 missiles.


In practical terms, YES a streak-cat is deadly.. but their main capability is against light units, and as a light pilot *you have the choice to engage* because you have a speed advantage over a catapault. Leave Streak-Cats to your heavy team mates, who will pick them apart at range.

Other light units that are packing SSRM's should be considered as "interceptors" , they are MADE for killing lights, but they are also limited by how much ammo they can carry. Basically they sacrifice any capability against heavies to be exceptional at killing lights.

SSRM's are pretty balanced as is, as a Commando pilot, ive learned to call for help on Streak Cats, Streak Cats are testament to the effectivness of LIGHTS, and one of the main roles for Streak cats is to protect heavies from lights

Put simply...if a unit is guarded by a Streak Cat... use your speed and pick another target... or come back with friends.

If they do "nerf" SSRM's targeting, they will have a bigger impact on *light* units viability than heavies. Commando and Jenner BOTH rely pretty heavily on Streaks as a reliable weapon to use while maintaining high speed, Commando especially given 3 models rely on missiles as a big portion of their firepower (75% for the 2D, 50% for the 1D and 3A). Streak Cats will simply continue to be effective using SSRM's against lights, simply because of the high volume of fire, it may even make streak catapults even better.. as has been said, stripping arms and hitting left/right torso will often be more deadly against XL engined units.

Edited by TigaShark, 02 November 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[Ginoxy]

TigaShark, on 02 November 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

SRM's are like "dumb rockets"

Discription: MRM Medium-Range Missiles:

"MRM a giant step backwards in Weapon development, Originally dubbed "dead-fire missiles" or "dummy rockets". MRM are unguided missiles systems." Battletech Masterrules, Classic Battletech Technical Manuel!

So MRM are "dummy rockets" like the Hydra 70 rocket at the Apache not the SRM!

Disciption: SRM Short-Range Missiles:

"SRMs are direct - trajectory missiles with high-explosive or armor-piercing explosive warheads. They are accurate only at ranges of less than 300 meters." Battletech Compandium, Battletech Master Rules, Classic Battletech Technical Manuel!

They must be guided other wise Narc, Artemis IV had not influence at the Missiles! And a "Dummy Rocket" has no accuracy!

Discription: SSRM Streak Short-Range Missiles:
"A Streak SRM missile contains a targeting device, that prevent the missile from launching unless the missile has a Locked onto a target. Once locked on, the missile automatically hits." Battletech Compandium, Battletech Master Rules, Classic Battletech Technical Manuel!

And that mean that you need for each shoot a lock on!

It would be so easy, If someone looks into the basics of the Mechwarrior Universe! But I thing, now one wants a real Mechwarrior Game, they want a Ego-Shooter with MechMod. Otherwise they would now the Weapons!

[EvangelionUnit]

Ginoxy, on 02 November 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

post about modern weapons vs bt weapons

why did i read nothing about the HARM missile and the Home on Jam mode ? to kill everything equiped with ECM ? XD http://en.wikipedia....iki/AGM-88_HARM

Edited by EvangelionUnit, 03 November 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[Tuku]

I have seen my streaks fallow a jenner around the corner....as someone who uses them....nerf their tracking ability ....its a close range weapon...they should curve toward and hit targets but running behind corners should be one of the defenses ...They should not be able to make sharp turns to take a jenner down.

[Al Apone]

I can see people leaving in droves if the srm streak problem is not sorted out.

[TigaShark]

Ginoxy, on 02 November 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

They must be guided other wise Narc, Artemis IV had not influence at the Missiles! And a "Dummy Rocket" has no accuracy!

Narc and TAG dont have any affect on SRM's in Mechwarrior ONLINE....

SRM's are unguided aka "dumb" rockets in MWO...

The "Effective" range of a weapon is just that, in the case of SRM's they become ineffective at longer range because they spread out so far most of them miss the target.

In MWO SRM's are really optimally effective at ranges around 150m, at 300m they are already so spread most of them will miss.

The devs have said they are looking into a way to limit the spread of SRM's beyond a certain range as its a *know issue* that they arent viable at their maximum "optimal" range currently

Edited by TigaShark, 03 November 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[Molybdenum]

IMO the only reason streaks seem OP right now is because of the hit detection issues, and they will at least seem less OP once people can reliably land unguided weapons.

[Tuku]

Molybdenum, on 03 November 2012 - 09:02 AM, said:

IMO the only reason streaks seem OP right now is because of the hit detection issues, and they will at least seem less OP once people can reliably land unguided weapons.

No.....when my streaks can make a nearly 90degree turn strait up to still hit CT on a Jenner who jumped at the last possible moment I say they are over powered, and that is from some one who uses them regularly.

[Gauvan]

At the moment there are a number of possible issues with SSRMs of which a change to any one may or may not balance the weapon system.

1. SSRMs always hit the center torso. This is broken and can be expected to be fixed at some point.
2. One current mech design can boat SSRMs to unfair advantage. I don't think changing mech designs is a good way to address the SSRM problem--there will always be mech designs that encourage boating and the weapon systems should be balanced acordingly.
3. SSRMs cause a good deal of "shake"--I think "impulse" is term used in-game to represent this effect for each weapon. SSRMs chain fired can effectively shut down a mech until the mech dies or the ammo runs out. I haven't seen this mentioned but I think it's an important part of balancing the weapon, either by reducing impulse or reducing rate of fire.
4. SSRMs may (or seem to) make bizzare turns around corners and otherwise ignore terrain to an unbalancing degree.

There is at least one other concern that I put in a different category than the others, as it's a TT versus MWO issue, but:

5. SSRMs in MWO work in a fundamentally different way than in BattleTech. In BT, an SSRM is identical rule-wise as an equivalent SRM with one step in the hit resolution ignored. Both are an aimed weapon--the differences are ones of ammo use and partial hits. I don't know if it's a balance point or a game design decision, but there is a big difference in an aimed weapon and the implementation of SSRMs in MWO (where you just need to keep the target in the area of the reticle). It's worth pointing out that this would require a completely new weapon aiming mechanic to be developed (I consider the current SSRMs to use an adaptation of LRM logic) so I don't expect to see a change in this direction, but larger SSRMs will be added at some point and balancing that works for an SSRM-2 might not fix SSRM-6s.

My feedback is that I'd really like to see issues #1 (CT hits) and #3 (impulse or RoF) playtested. That may well be enough to balance the weapon. I do think the weapon is currently unbalanced and I'm not sure just distributing the damage will be enough. The size of the maps, the slow access to target infomation and the preponderance of cover makes this currently a game slanted towards close-in brawling, so any weapon with an advantage in that environment needs to be carefully implemented.

I'm a little concerned that we haven't seen much action on SSRMs, but I hope they are on the short list for a balancing tweak.

[Fenris Kell]

I would request they change how streaks work only AFTER they fix the hit detection/net code on fast moving lights. As it is about the only consistent way to take down a light circling you is using streaks. As often even dragging lasers across them do not do reliable dmg.

[drloser]

There are 2 urgents things to nerf:
a- The SSRM (I die from SSRM 75% of the time)
b- Add the trip abilty

Edited by drloser, 05 November 2012 - 11:58 AM.